Originally posted by Creshosk
Not really. Roma did say all she did was a global change, and that accidently breached the wall somehow.But if it's like you destroyed the Earth and the rest of the multiverse threatened with collapse because of it.
Destroying the planet isn't impressive is it?
Yet somehow doing that cause the rest of the multiverse to threaten with collapse.
Except it was beyond just the Earth. All evidence weighed, as Xmarksthespot did a great job summarizing, Wanda's influence went beyond Earth 616 - it affected everybody who is associated with the Earth - like the Kree, Galactus, the Shiar, and the Inhumans (who are actually based on the moon).
And to re-iterate - Wanda tore a hole in creation with her own power. Legion did not. Wanda altered reality with her own power. Legion did not. I think it's pretty clear that Wanda is far beyond Legion - you're miscomparing. Don't compare Wanda to Legion -it's not valid. Compare Wanda to the effect of the M'Kraan Crystal.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Legion did it by killing Xavier.Big ****ing whoop.
Because your girl Phoenix couldn't manifest herself. She was rendered powerless. Not my fault. Wanda did it under her own power - everybody else, like Legion and D'Ken needed the Crystal. Wanda does NOT need the Crystal. I don't know how to make that any clearer.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Inadvertantly.Just like Legion's slaying of Xavier.
Inadvertantly shows the power is there, just not the intent. We're not debating intent, we're debating power. There's a clear difference.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
New Thunderbolts. Altered Kree/Skrull history. You're hinging a lot on Roma's one word.
Im not denying the rest of 616 got altered but im saying its not all directly because of Wanda. The chaos wave is responsible for the rest. Roma says quite clearly that the root of the problem was a global alteration which caused the trans temporal tsunami that is now sweeping through marvel creation. It doesnt get much clearer than that.
Originally posted by demigawd
Except it was beyond just the Earth. All evidence weighed, as Xmarksthespot did a great job summarizing, Wanda's influence went beyond Earth 616 - it affected everybody who is associated with the Earth - like the Kree, Galactus, the Shiar, and the Inhumans (who are actually based on the moon).And to re-iterate - Wanda tore a hole in creation with her own power. Legion did not. Wanda altered reality with her own power. Legion did not. I think it's pretty clear that Wanda is far beyond Legion - you're miscomparing. Don't compare Wanda to Legion -it's not valid. Compare Wanda to the effect of the M'Kraan Crystal.
Because your girl Phoenix couldn't manifest herself. She was rendered powerless. Not my fault. Wanda did it under her own power - everybody else, like Legion and D'Ken needed the Crystal. Wanda does NOT need the Crystal. I don't know how to make that any clearer.
We know Wanda doesnt need the crystal. But she has only been a catalyst nothing more. She hasnt shown the ability to collapse creation under her own power. She hasnt definitely warped directly anything beyond earth. According to Roma the rest was done by the chaos wave.
Originally posted by GalacticStormShe want's to make Magneto a hero to the Kree and so she alters the history of the Kree so that they fought alongside and have a strong alliance and that makes it indirect?
Im not denying the rest of 616 got altered but im saying its not all directly because of Wanda. The chaos wave is responsible for the rest. Roma says quite clearly that the root of the problem was a global alteration which caused the trans temporal tsunami that is now sweeping through marvel creation. It doesnt get much clearer than that.
Originally posted by demigawdYou cotradicted yourself there congratulations.
Except it was beyond just the Earth. All evidence weighed, as Xmarksthespot did a great job summarizing, Wanda's influence went beyond Earth 616 - it affected everybody who is associated with the Earth - like the Kree, Galactus, the Shiar, and the Inhumans (who are actually based on the moon).And to re-iterate - Wanda tore a hole in creation with her own power. Legion did not. Wanda altered reality with her own power. Legion did not. I think it's pretty clear that Wanda is far beyond Legion - you're miscomparing. Don't compare Wanda to Legion -it's not valid. Compare Wanda to the effect of the M'Kraan Crystal.
Because your girl Phoenix couldn't manifest herself. She was rendered powerless. Not my fault. Wanda did it under her own power - everybody else, like Legion and D'Ken needed the Crystal. Wanda does NOT need the Crystal. I don't know how to make that any clearer.
Inadvertantly shows the power is there, just not the intent. We're not debating intent, we're debating power. There's a clear difference.
YES POWER WISE THE EFFECT IS THE SAME.
LEIGON ALMOST DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE, WANDA ALMOST DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE.
All Leigon did was slay Xavier to do this. That doesn't take alot of power. Or intent since you mentioned it, cause he was trying to bring peace by removing the thing they saw was causing the problem.
Intent is the EXACT same. The outcome is the EXACT same.
Leigon's power is less than Wanda's power. but he STILL tore a hole in reality by slaying Xavier. That doesn't make him powerful. He just did something that managed to accidently destroy reality.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotHey, if altering the history of an alien race makes your daddy a big strong hero. . . Do you care what that alien race is?
She want's to make Magneto a hero to the Kree and so she alters the history of the Kree so that they fought alongside and have a strong alliance and that makes it indirect?
Could have been the Shi'ar. She still would have been directly changing Magneto's history. primarily and then what ever the alien race just happens to be secondary.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The crystal is the nexus of all realities and the crown is accessible through it you cant just get rid of it Demi. Its purpose is to contain the omega point the neutron star which is the origin point of all that is. As stated in Uncanny the crystal is the heart of Phoenix. Thats why she repaired it because she is a part of it.Your faulty analogy portrays Wanda herself as the chaos wave crossing into other dimensions which is incorrect . Mine portrays wanda as the catalyst the cause for the wave without being directly connected to the wave i.e it being her energies and her having control of it.
Not true. You're just speculating into what Wanda can do when its not sufficiently supported on panel. The whole avengers dissassembled thing was all about Wanda not having a clue how to use her powers and that being the reason she was going insane. That is why there is an unintentional tear in reality. She did a botch job with her reality warping causing the chaos wave. Any reality warper of a decent power level im sure could rupture the dimensional barriers . Either way so what its not wandas powe thats caused the multiversal devastation its her bursting the dam with the resultant tidal wave doing all the work. Its not a feat for her. She only manipulated 616 earths reality and her tamperings caused the chaos wave that is causing reality all around her to turn on its head. As roma said the alteration was global but its caused trans temporal tsunami thats spreading from earth to the rest of creation, breaching dimensional barriers. Ive got to give her credit for the damage shes caused but thats it. She just lit the fuse the rest is not her work.
No she warped earths reality with her own power which is the "global alteration" Roma is referring to. Her inexperience with her power resulted in the the chaos wave (the "trans temporal tsunami originating from earth 616"😉 which is causing reality across the multiversal to turn on its head. That is not Wanda. So yeah she could cause reality to end by using her power as the catalyst but then so what? Its not as impressive as doing it outright with your own power cyclically which we know phoenix does. As confimed in uncanny 460 phoenix is connected to the crown it is its heart. The crown is the m'kraan crystal or at least its accessible through it (New X-men 154) so at the end of creation when phoenix breaks down creation and downloads it into the omega point "the neutron star" its all under her own power because the crystal is her heart as stated in 460.
Ummm you only have proof that Wanda warped earths reality under her own power. Her inexperience caused the chaos wave which warped everything else and is running through creation. Bigger feat than we've seen wanda achieve directly im afraid.
No the global alteration isnt referring to that. That doesnt make nearly as much sense. Wanda ripped a hole in reality through inexperience with her powers. Just like Legion did it by tampering with the M'kraan crystal. Given that the chaos wave wasnt wandas own power you have absolutely nothing to go on. All this speculation simply isnt good enough. When you can show me an on panel feat achieved by Wanda directly that equals Jean holding 616 in her hand and restructuring it then we'll talk. Phoenix has her beat for on panel feats achieved via her own power, plus the fact that shes an aspect of god says it all. On top of that shes called the ultimate mutation for a reason Dem.
But if you look at the graphics of the reality wave, realities were destroyed and shifted all over the place. Multiple versions of Rogue and others were seen flying through space and time.
Answered above
Roma didnt say the affect would reach the white hot room. The word ascension isnt good enough Demi. Your argument relies too much on speculation and it lacks on panel feats achieved directly by Wandas hand. The chaos wave is the result of wandas power acting as a catalyst.
Youre speculating on Wandas abilities. Your analogy is unclear to me lol however theres no concrete evidence that Wanda can directly warp reality beyond a global scale. Her amateur attempts caused the chaos wave that swept through creation collapsing/ warping reality. When you have scans which show clearly that wanda directly (not using her power as a catalyst) can match or better phoenixes on panel feats then you'll have a point. As it stands her power can be a catalyst to break down reality if she so chooses, however she has no control over the chaos wave it doesnt derive from her. All it does, all it destroys is not a feat of wandas. Her definite absolutely 100 % definite feat is warping earth 616 and thats that.
Phoenix wins. 😱
Pfft. I'm not answering all of this. Most of it is circular anyway.
It all really comes down to - Wanda has the power - INNATELY - to tear holes in creation. She has the power to do - INNATELY - what the M'kraan Crystal does - alter creation. No Crystal is necessary on her part.
As for the chaos wave - yes, we agree that it was a side effect of her power. What you keep ignoring is the fact that she can tear apart reality. She did it unintentionally, and she can do it intentionally. It's beyond Phoenix's ability to alter or stop, otherwise she would do so.
The chaos wave is a side effect, yes, but also notice how Wanda was altering the multiverse in the process of changing things - that had nothing to do with the chaos wave, which is sheer destruction. Wanda's powers were functioning directly within the nexus of realities.
Furthermore, there's been nothing done by Phoenix to suggest that she destroys reality in a way different than also setting off a massive chaos wave. The only difference is that there's been no description or viewing of how Phoenix does while there's been an exaustive description of what Wanda is doing.
Phoenix NEEDED to use the M'kraan Crystal to initiate the repairs to reality. So I guess that means she can't repair reality on her own, huh?
Also, Phoenix, it seems, can't exist in multiple realites afterall - since her absence in the AOA was what created the M'Kraan crisis in the first place.
So Phoenix isn't all she's cracked up to be and Wanda can unmake reality with no Crystal necessary.
Bottom line - the scale on which Wanda is operating is beyond anything the Phoenix has shown, who has NEVER been shown operating at a multiversal level. EVER.
Originally posted by CreshoskIt's not an indirect alteration. It's no more indirect than her alteration of the Earth's reality. It's a direct alteration of the Marvel universe as a whole. Beyond global.
Hey, if altering the history of an alien race makes your daddy a big strong hero. . . Do you care what that alien race is?Could have been the Shi'ar. She still would have been directly changing Magneto's history. primarily and then what ever the alien race just happens to be secondary.
Originally posted by Creshosk
She altered Earth's history, which indirectly altered outside of Earth's history.And stll doesn't seem to be as powerful as you guys are saying.
She altered the history of everybody in reality who was affected by Earth's history to make it all make sense. That's POWERFUL.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not denying the rest of 616 got altered but im saying its not all directly because of Wanda. The chaos wave is responsible for the rest. Roma says quite clearly that the root of the problem was a global alteration which caused the trans temporal tsunami that is now sweeping through marvel creation. It doesnt get much clearer than that.
You're saying the change in Kree history is the result of the chaos wave?!?!
Originally posted by demigawdSo, you want it to be celestal level?
She altered the history of everybody in reality who was affected by Earth's history to make it all make sense. That's POWERFUL.
She has the power to alter history. yawn
Who was that wone guy that was going back through universes destroying that universe by renoving the key character?
Big whoop. . . he could travel through time and universe and knew where to take out the key ston of the mountain.
Originally posted by Creshosk
You cotradicted yourself there congratulations.
Where?
YES POWER WISE THE EFFECT IS THE SAME.
Agree
LEIGON ALMOST DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE, WANDA ALMOST DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE.
Agree
All Leigon did was slay Xavier to do this. That doesn't take alot of power. Or intent since you mentioned it, cause he was trying to bring peace by removing the thing they saw was causing the problem.
Agree
Intent is the EXACT same. The outcome is the EXACT same.
Agree
Leigon's power is less than Wanda's power. but he STILL tore a hole in reality by slaying Xavier. That doesn't make him powerful. He just did something that managed to accidently destroy reality. [/B]
Agree
You failed to address what I said was different - it wasn't intent or effect, it was POWER. Legion changed history, which required tampering with the Crystal, which directly led to the prevention of the creation of Phoenix. BUT THIS ALL CENTERED AROUND THE M'KRAAN CRYSTAL. It had nothing to do with Legion's power - he has no power to alter reality.
Wanda changed history, which required NO tampering with the Crystal - the Crystal never once came up. The power in the feat was in her ability to tear apart reality under her own power. That was my point and that continues to be my point - the intent was the same, the effect was the same, the POWER was completely different. Wanda used power that went beyond the Crystal and beyond the Phoenix. Legion used the Crystal.
Big, BIG difference.