Scarlet Witch (current) vs. Phoenix Force Jean

Originally posted by demigawd
Where?

Agree

Agree

Agree

Agree

Agree

You failed to address what I said was different - it wasn't intent or effect, it was POWER. Legion changed history, which required tampering with the Crystal, which directly led to the prevention of the creation of Phoenix. BUT THIS ALL CENTERED AROUND THE M'KRAAN CRYSTAL. It had nothing to do with Legion's power - he has no power to alter reality.

Wanda changed history, which required NO tampering with the Crystal - the Crystal never once came up. The power in the feat was in her ability to tear apart reality under her own power. That was my point and that continues to be my point - the intent was the same, the effect was the same, the POWER was completely different. Wanda used power that went beyond the Crystal and beyond the Phoenix. Legion used the Crystal.

Big, BIG difference.

That's not what caused the problem. It was slaying Xavier.

Bishop must be a multiversal threat who does enact on this because he doesn't want to kill Xavier.
Fitzroy must be a multiversal threat who does not enact on it because he doesn't want to kill xavier.
Rachael must be a multiverasal threat because blah blah blah.

Timetravelers are obviously all multiversal threats, regardless of method of time travel. Sio he used the Crystal (You have to admit THAT is pretty impressive for an Earth based mutant.) to time travel, that is NOT what caused the problem.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So, you want it to be celestal level?

She has the power to alter history. yawn

Who was that wone guy that was going back through universes destroying that universe by renoving the key character?

Big whoop. . . he could travel through time and universe and knew where to take out the key ston of the mountain.

You're equating time travel and changing reality to warping reality. I hope you realize how COMPLETELY DIFFERENT the two are.

Legion went back and time and changed the cause. He had no control over the effect. Had he succeeded in killing, say, Magneto, he really had no idea what would happen next - he can't control it. He just figured that it would turn out the way he wanted.

Wanda changed both the cause and the effect - she MADE the world what she wanted by editing history to precisely her specifications. She didn't just go back in time and kill somebody and let the rest take over. She edited all of reality to get the exact effect she wanted.

I hope you realize the deep, profound difference between the two. There's absolutely no comparison whatsoever.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Except for the fact that she can't time travel . . . 🙄

Anyway. The whole global vs universal thing is pretty clear. It's universal. And the initial effects went beyond that of reality 616. If it even mattered to her to alter the other realities directly I don't doubt she could have but it's of no importance to her. She made a rip by accident due to using her powers. If she wanted to she could go nuts - figuratively since literally she already is - with her powers and tear apart reality.

It doesn't appear to take her any effort whatsoever to do what she does. And another point. She works for no one. She can do whatever she wants.

So the new heirachy should be

1. Bishop, Wanda, Leigon, Fitzroy <insert time traveler here>
2. TOAA
etc etc etc?

Since obviously Wanda has the power to destroy all of creation . . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
Legion used the crystal to time travel. . and?

And as a result the Crystal broke and created a chaos wave.

That's not what caused the problem. It was slaying Xavier.

No, that exacerbated the problem. It was the two together. The crystal broke. Without Xavier, there was never a Phoenix to repair the crystal when it breaks, as it did when Legion broke it by time traveling in the first place. The reason why the omniverse was threatened by Legion's actions begins and ends with the use of the M'Kraan Crystal. And that's why...

Bishop must be a multiversal threat who does enact on this because he doesn't want to kill Xavier.
Fitzroy must be a multiversal threat who does not enact on it because he doesn't want to kill xavier.
Rachael must be a multiverasal threat because blah blah blah.

...none of these apply. Their changing of time didn't cause the Crystal to break and spread out chaos. Legion's use of it did.

Wanda, on the other hand, ripped a hole creation of her own power. It's something that has never been done without the Crystal. And since we're arguing power and nothing more, THAT is an unprecedented feat.

Originally posted by demigawd
You're equating time travel and changing reality to warping reality. I hope you realize how COMPLETELY DIFFERENT the two are.

Originally posted by demigawd
Legion went back and time and changed the cause. He had no control over the effect.

Originally posted by demigawd
Had he succeeded in killing, say, Magneto, he really had no idea what would happen next - he can't control it. He just figured that it would turn out the way he wanted.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda changed both the cause and the effect

Originally posted by demigawd
- she MADE the world what she wanted by editing history to precisely her specifications.

Originally posted by demigawd
She didn't just go back in time and kill somebody and let the rest take over.

Originally posted by demigawd
She edited all of reality to get the exact effect she wanted.

Originally posted by demigawd
I hope you realize the deep, profound difference between the two.

Originally posted by demigawd
There's absolutely no comparison whatsoever.

Intent, cause and effect? Different method same result.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So the new heirachy should be

1. Bishop, Wanda, Leigon, Fitzroy <insert time traveler here>
2. TOAA
etc etc etc?

Since obviously Wanda has the power to destroy all of creation . . .

I already explained the VERY BIG difference between changing reality via time travel (which Homer Simpson did) vs. changing reality via reality manipulation powers. I can't believe you don't recognize that difference. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

Originally posted by demigawd
And as a result the Crystal broke and created a chaos wave.

Originally posted by demigawd
No, that exacerbated the problem. It was the two together. The crystal broke. Without Xavier, there was never a Phoenix to repair the crystal when it breaks, as it did when Legion broke it by time traveling in the first place. The reason why the omniverse was threatened by Legion's actions begins and ends with the use of the M'Kraan Crystal. And that's why...

Originally posted by demigawd
...none of these apply. Their changing of time didn't cause the Crystal to break and spread out chaos. Legion's use of it did.

She did it before, remember that event?

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda, on the other hand, ripped a hole creation of her own power.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's something that has never been done without the Crystal.

Originally posted by demigawd
And since we're arguing power and nothing more, THAT is an unprecedented feat.

Originally posted by demigawd
I already explained the VERY BIG difference between changing reality via time travel (which Homer Simpson did) vs. changing reality via reality manipulation powers. I can't believe you don't recognize that difference. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

And its the effect we're talking about.

Wanda uses her power {Cause} and destroys reality {effetct}
Leigion slays Xavier {cause} and destroys reality {effect}

So anyone who slays Xavier has the ability to destroy reailty.
Anybody that can time travel can slay xavier.
Anybody who can time travel can destroy reality.

So anybody who can timetravel is above TOAA. . .

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's what you think...

How old is Jubilee now and how old was Jubilee ten years ago?

Intent: If Wanda wanted to tear creation enough to collapse the omniverse she couldn't? When she's done it inadvertently already? Legion cannot use his powers to do this.

Cause: Wanda's powers solely vs change in events affecting the Crystal.

Effect: With Legion a change to Earth and Earth alone. A timeline split. A frozen reality and a new timeline. The Crystal never repaired in the alternate timeline thus presenting a threat. Not due to Legion's powers.

With Wanda change to the entire 616 reality to her specifications, and initial overspill outside of 616 reality. Followed by a chaos wave created due to her powers that was spreading through the other realities and would have eventually collapsed all of creation including "the ascension".

Originally posted by Creshosk
Hey it's your logic. Not mine.

Um. No. Don't try and pin this on me. YOU are the one who brought up the ludicrous notion that what Legion did was comparable. Just as YOU are the one who started equating time traveling with reality manipulation. It's your mess, not mine.

Sure he does, obviously as he threatened the multiverse with collapse.

WTF are you talking about? Legion never threatened to collapse the multiverse. He wanted to kill Magneto in HOPES of it becoming a better place. He had no control over the effect....he could just try to change what he thought was the cause and hope for the best. That is completely different from what Wanda did.

Like Wanda?

UNlike Wanda, who altered the 616 reality to her exact specifications, and retroactively made history fit to those specifications. Wanda started from an effect (Magneto rules the world) and made the cause (history) fit it. Legion started from a cause (kill Magneto) to try to create an effect that he had no further control over. HUUUUGE difference. I don't understand why you'd make the comparison in the first place.
Nope, I doubt she choose to destroy all of reality.

Like Leigon tried to do?

UNlike Legion tried to do. Legion HOPED by killing Magneto that the "world would become a better place". Absolutely nothing specific because he had no idea what would happen. If Legion wanted a world where Bolivar Trask was the Sultan of Brunei, he'd be SOL. If Wanda wanted a world where Bolivar Trask was the Sultan of Brunei, she'd snap her fingers and make it so.

No she did it from the present.

Now you're getting it. Start from the effect and change the cause to fit. MUCH different than going to the cause and hoping for a favorable effect.

by changing events in histroy.

To precisely her specifications to make it fit the desired goal. It's profoundly different than what Legion tried or was even capable of doing. Legion performed on action with a general goal. He would be incapable of a specific goal - like, say, "Xavier never going bald".

I do which is why I'm trying to point it out to you.

And you do that by trying to show how everything is the same?

Excaept for every single point?

But you just said you were "trying to point out" the differences, and here you're saying it's the same? I think you've been up too long.

Intent, cause and effect? Different method same result.

And this is what it comes down to. Different method. DIFFERENT result.

So DIFFERENT power
DIFFERENT cause
DIFFERENT effect.

But you already knew those differences, as you tried to point out to me....or not.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
How old is Jubilee now and how old was Jubilee ten years ago?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Intent: If Wanda wanted to tear creation enough to collapse the omniverse she couldn't? When she's done it inadvertently already? Legion cannot use his powers to do this.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cause: Wanda's powers solely vs change in events affecting the Crystal.[/v]

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[B]Effect: With Legion a change to Earth and Earth alone. A timeline split. A frozen reality and a new timeline. The Crystal never repaired in the alternate timeline thus presenting a threat. Not due to Legion's powers.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
With Wanda change to the change to the entire 616 reality to her specifications, and initial overspill outside of 616 reality. Followed by a chaos wave created due to her powers that was spreading through the other realities and would have eventually collapsed all of creation including "the ascension".

Wanda still equals leigion right now. Since we ARE talking about the impending destruction of reality being the major feat.

And they both did that.

So I guess Legion > Toaa, eh?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Being deaged doesn't maen she time traveled. 😆

Originally posted by Creshosk
Legion can't slay Xavier? News to me cause he did it once. . .
Wanda's powers didn't show to directly destroy reality. . otherwise it wouldn't be an accident.
Legion slew Xavier, that effected the change.
Wanda still equals leigion right now. Since we ARE talking about the impending destruction of reality being the major feat.

Originally posted by demigawd
Pfft. I'm not answering all of this. Most of it is circular anyway.

It all really comes down to - Wanda has the power - INNATELY - to tear holes in creation. She has the power to do - INNATELY - what the M'kraan Crystal does - alter creation. No Crystal is necessary on her part.

Yes Wanda can tear holes in creation but all thats going to do is cause chaos waves which will eventually result in the clollapse of all that is into a blob. How do you know Wanda would survive that herself? The crystal holds all existence together and contains a gateway to the crown. Wanda being able to tear holes in the creation doesnt make her greater than the crystal. Can Wanda hold reality together under her own energies?

Originally posted by demigawd
As for the chaos wave - yes, we agree that it was a side effect of her power. What you keep ignoring is the fact that she can tear apart reality. She did it unintentionally, and she can do it intentionally. It's beyond Phoenix's ability to alter or stop, otherwise she would do so.

Thats terrible logic Demi and you know it. Phoenix hasnt been around for many a threat same as LT doesnt mean they couldnt stop it though does it. Just means it wasnt in their jurisdiction. IG saga is a good example where they both didnt turn up.

As a side effect why do you keep harping on about the chaos wave and its effects. Its not wandas power thats all it comes down to. Wanda has no control of the chaos wave herself so you dont exactly gain a point for yourself by claiming that phoenix cant do it. Which is unfounded

Originally posted by demigawd
The chaos wave is a side effect, yes, but also notice how Wanda was altering the multiverse in the process of changing things - that had nothing to do with the chaos wave, which is sheer destruction. Wanda's powers were functioning directly within the nexus of realities.

Not true the chaos wave turns reality upside down in its wake. Thats what you saw happening in uncanny 460 as it passed through Otherworld so youre incorrect there Demi. When you can prove its Wanda as opposed to the chaos wave then you'll have a point. Until then all things in the issue point to wanda changing earth and the wave changing the rest.

Originally posted by demigawd
Furthermore, there's been nothing done by Phoenix to suggest that she destroys reality in a way different than also setting off a massive chaos wave. The only difference is that there's been no description or viewing of how Phoenix does while there's been an exaustive description of what Wanda is doing.

Well considering Phoenix is said to consume Creation in fire i think its safe to say its under her own power.

Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix NEEDED to use the M'kraan Crystal to initiate the repairs to reality. So I guess that means she can't repair reality on her own, huh?

Incorrect. Phoenix repaired the 616 reality as you know. Considering she makes creation i think its safe to say she can repair it as well. Come on Demi a bit of common sense please.

Originally posted by demigawd
Also, Phoenix, it seems, can't exist in multiple realites afterall - since her absence in the AOA was what created the M'Kraan crisis in the first place. ?[QUOTE=5197895]Originally posted by demigawd
[B]

What are you talking about Demi. Being one being in an entire multiverse shows you're higher status than those who have multiple selves in the multiverse. Theres only one phoenix theres only one LT. Youre confused lol.

[QUOTE=5197895]Originally posted by demigawd
[B] So Phoenix isn't all she's cracked up to be and Wanda can unmake reality with no Crystal necessary

Damn i forgot about X-men forever. Stranger sought to collapse reality so that he could emerge as the supreme being in a new creation and guess who he needed to do it. PHOENIX!!!! Phoenix does it under her own power and collaspses it into a cosmic egg from which the new Eternity is born and eventually the multiverse.

Originally posted by demigawd
Bottom line - the scale on which Wanda is operating is beyond anything the Phoenix has shown, who has NEVER been shown operating at a multiversal level. EVER.

Yeah that makes sense when the multiverse originates from Phoenix lol.

Also reshaping a reality in your hand and amputating its timeline shows you that phoenixes power isnt limited to reality shaping. Plus it was all done under her own power. My baby needs no help 😱

Do we all agree she's beyond that brat Franklin. Because that's all I really wanted.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda used power that went beyond the Crystal and beyond the Phoenix. Legion used the Crystal.

Big, BIG difference.

How so when Phoenix creates and destroys creation cyclically and all under its own power?

Wanda is a mere reality warper.

Originally posted by demigawd
Um. No. Don't try and pin this on me. YOU are the one who brought up the ludicrous notion that what Legion did was comparable. Just as YOU are the one who started equating time traveling with reality manipulation. It's your mess, not mine.

Leigon destroyed reality. Guess that's proof of his power huh?

Originally posted by demigawd
WTF are you talking about? Legion never threatened to collapse the multiverse. He wanted to kill Magneto in HOPES of it becoming a better place. He had no control over the effect....he could just try to change what he thought was the cause and hope for the best. That is completely different from what Wanda did.

JUST like Wanda.

Originally posted by demigawd
UNlike Wanda, who altered the 616 reality to her exact specifications, and retroactively made history fit to those specifications.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda started from an effect (Magneto rules the world)

Originally posted by demigawd
and made the cause (history) fit it.

She altered history, so did legion.

Originally posted by demigawd
Legion started from a cause (kill Magneto)

Originally posted by demigawd
to try to create an effect that he had no further control over.

Originally posted by demigawd
HUUUUGE difference. I don't understand why you'd make the comparison in the first place.

Originally posted by demigawd
Nope, I doubt she choose to destroy all of reality.

Originally posted by demigawd
UNlike Legion tried to do. Legion HOPED by killing Magneto that the "world would become a better place".

Originally posted by demigawd
Absolutely nothing specific because he had no idea what would happen.

Originally posted by demigawd
If Legion wanted a world where Bolivar Trask was the Sultan of Brunei, he'd be SOL.

Originally posted by demigawd
If Wanda wanted a world where Bolivar Trask was the Sultan of Brunei, she'd snap her fingers and make it so.[b/]

Originally posted by demigawd
[B]Now you're getting it. Start from the effect and change the cause to fit.

Originally posted by demigawd
MUCH different than going to the cause and hoping for a favorable effect.

Originally posted by demigawd
To precisely her specifications to make it fit the desired goal.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's profoundly different than what Legion tried or was even capable of doing.

Originally posted by demigawd
Legion performed on action with a general goal. He would be incapable of a specific goal - like, say, "Xavier never going bald".

Originally posted by demigawd
And you do that by trying to show how everything is the same?

Cause/Intent: to alter history to something more pleaseing
Effect: The destruction of reality.

Originally posted by demigawd
But you just said you were "trying to point out" the differences, and here you're saying it's the same?

Originally posted by demigawd
I think you've been up too long.

Originally posted by demigawd
And this is what it comes down to. Different method. DIFFERENT result.

Originally posted by demigawd
So DIFFERENT power/[quote] And?
[QUOTE=5198093]Originally posted by demigawd
DIFFERENT cause

Originally posted by demigawd
DIFFERENT effect./[quote] Oh yes because Legion cause d reailty to colapse and Wanda. . oh no wait IT'S THE SAME DAMNED EFFECT.

[QUOTE=5198093]Originally posted by demigawd
But you already knew those differences, as you tried to point out to me....or not.

What is wanda almost have happening?

What are you claiming? "If wanda wanted to she could destroy reality"

If that proves her power then any time traveler is just as powerful, which is ****ing stupid, but hey "If they want to the can destroy reality" so hey whatever. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
Slaying xavier was the problem.

Slaying Xavier was NOT just the problem. Think of how many alternate realities have existed where Xavier never lived - no chaos wave. The problem was using the Crystal to time travel, then preventing the creation of the Phoenix by killing Xavier (which is a demerit on the divinity of the Phoenix). It was two step.

Wanda, on the other hand, did it under her own power. Which seems to be the recurring (and often ignored) theme here that is really the only point that matters.

So So what was that event in the 80s where phoenix repaired the crystal?

Phoenix Saga....what's your point?

Slaying Xavier prevented blah blah blah.

She did it before, remember that event?

These are random comments. Who did what before? Phoenix? Phoenix was MIA in AOA - hence the problem with the end of creation. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Accidently. Just like Leigon slaying xavier.

You're arguing intent again - we're past that. Intent has no place in this debate. Just power, cause and effect. Power states that Legion needed the Crystal to do what he did. Cause is that Xavier was killed and the Crystal was broken. Effect states that as a result of Xavier's death, Phoenix was never born to fix the break in the Crystal.

By comparison - power states that Crystal needed nothing to do what she did - it was her FEAT OF POWER TO SIMULATE THE M'KRAAN CRYSTAL that caused the havoc. THAT is the point.

But appearently could be, just by slaying xavier before he founds the X-men.

NO - it wasn't just the killing of Xavier. Put it this way, if Fritzroy went back in time and killed Xavier instead of Legion, there would NOT have been a problem with the M'kraan Crystal. The problem begins and end with the Crystal in Legion's case. Not so with Wanda.

What the crystal threatening to destroy reality?

No, someone threatening to destroy reality without the crystal.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You never know with that Jubes. She's as wiley as a coyote.

So she's really in her 20's or something and looks like she's. . she deaged herself agian. . .

You could almost say she looks good for her age, but she still looks like a kid.

Originally posted by demigawd
The Crystal was what threatened destruction not Legion. The cause in Wanda's case is Wanda and Wanda alone.

Oh yeah, LEGION. He slew Xavier, he altered history, he was the cause of the destruction of reailty.