Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix Saga....what's your point?
THERE YOU GO! THIS IS WHEN SHE REPAIRED THE CRYSTAL IN THE REAL REALITY.
Slaying Xavier prevented the phoenix saga from occuring.
Slaying Xaiver caused the problem.
So wanda has probably already beten phoenix if the reality alteration caused them to not be mutants.
Wanda prevented the Phoenix saga.
There were never any X-Men in HoM 616. 616 Jean Grey is the Phoenix apparently. 616 Jean Grey may have been completely unmade by Wanda Maximoff when she remade 616 reality - the entire history and reality was altered. By appearance neither Jean nor the Phoenix exist in HoM 616 if they are one and the same i.e. 616 Jean is Phoenix but both have been erased in HoM to make the desired reality for Emma Frost and Scott Summers. If the Phoenix Force does in fact exist it never encountered Jean Grey i.e. Jean isn't Phoenix. So either Jean isn't Phoenix or Wanda had the power to erase Phoenix and Jean completely.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotPrevented Jean's powers from intiating and tapping into the primal force of creation.
There were never any X-Men in HoM 616. 616 Jean Grey is the Phoenix apparently. 616 Jean Grey may have been completely unmade by Wanda Maximoff when she remade 616 reality - the entire history and reality was altered. By appearance neither Jean nor the Phoenix exist in HoM 616 if they are one and the same i.e. 616 Jean is Phoenix but both have been erased in HoM to make the desired reality for Emma Frost and Scott Summers. If the Phoenix Force does in fact exist it never encountered Jean Grey i.e. Jean isn't Phoenix. So either Jean isn't Phoenix or Wanda had the power to erase Phoenix and Jean completely.
At the end of the day Phoenix collapses reality under its own power, and then creates it all from scratch . She does that cyclically. Wandas powerful but her powers have never directly affected anything beyong the 616 reality. Her inexperience resulted in a chaos wave which went on to affect the multiverse. Big deal!! Phoenix collapsese reality herself and the Stranger sought her power to make him the supreme being of creation by using her to collapse all that is and create a new existence with him emerging supreme.
All under her own power, therefore beyond Wanda.
Even Jean reforming and repairing 616 in the palm of her hand on a whim is beyond wanda. Plus theres the fact that she amputated the timeline showing shes not restricted to reality.
But 616 Jean Grey doesn't exist in the same way anymore under HoM. She was never an X-Woman. She never went into space. She never encountered the Phoenix Force. She may never have existed at all.
So if the Phoenix Force exists in HoM then 616 Jean Grey isn't one and the same with the Phoenix. If Jean and the Phoenix are one and the same then both were erased in Wanda's alterations.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
But 616 Jean Grey doesn't exist in the same way anymore under HoM. She was never an X-Woman. She never went into space. She never encountered the Phoenix Force. She may never have existed at all.So if the Phoenix Force exists in HoM then 616 Jean Grey isn't one and the same with the Phoenix. If Jean and the Phoenix are one and the same then both were erased in Wanda's alterations.
What is this based on issue 7? Explain.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes Wanda can tear holes in creation but all thats going to do is cause chaos waves which will eventually result in the clollapse of all that is into a blob. How do you know Wanda would survive that herself? The crystal holds all existence together and contains a gateway to the crown. Wanda being able to tear holes in the creation doesnt make her greater than the crystal. Can Wanda hold reality together under her own energies?
All I'm saying is that Wanda has the ability to effect the omniverse simply by peeling back layers of creation. The tear in creation is evidence of that. Put the whole chaos wave thing aside for a second - Wanda's power stretches across the multiverse. Its effects, the changing of people across the multiverse, is not a side effect of the chaos wave. It's the effect of Wanda's power. The realities being destroyed, on the other hand....chaos wave.
Thats terrible logic Demi and you know it. Phoenix hasnt been around for many a threat same as LT doesnt mean they couldnt stop it though does it. Just means it wasnt in their jurisdiction. IG saga is a good example where they both didnt turn up.
How is it terrible logic? In both cases, all creation is threatened. In the case of the IG, LT didn't interfere because he felt it was the natural order of things for Eternity to be replaced - it wasn't the end of creation the way it is. the threat of a torn M'Kraan Crystal are identical to the threat of Wanda. Yet suddenly it's not in Phoenix's "jurisdiction" to stop a threat to CREATION? Oh, but it's in Phoenix's "jurisdiction" to stop sentient bacteria, like some sort of cosmic Listerine! LOL! I hope you're kidding me, GS.
As a side effect why do you keep harping on about the chaos wave and its effects. Its not wandas power thats all it comes down to. Wanda has no control of the chaos wave herself so you dont exactly gain a point for yourself by claiming that phoenix cant do it. Which is unfounded
Phoenix needed to repair the M'Kraan Crystal to prevent reality from being undone. She was unable to just "blink" it back to normal. What that shows is that the tear in reality was NOT fixable by Phoenix under her own power. She needed to fix the Crystal, which in turn stopped the chaos waves and repair the tear in reality. Wanda, on the other hand, affected the fabric of creation of her own power. No Crystal necessary. That's beyond Phoenix, who needed to fix the Crystal to fix reality.
Not true the chaos wave turns reality upside down in its wake. Thats what you saw happening in uncanny 460 as it passed through Otherworld so youre incorrect there Demi. When you can prove its Wanda as opposed to the chaos wave then you'll have a point. Until then all things in the issue point to wanda changing earth and the wave changing the rest.
No - she altered Otherworld too. That wasn't the Chaos wave you saw, that was her power extending beyond 616. Xmarksthespot already described that.
Well considering Phoenix is said to consume Creation in fire i think its safe to say its under her own power.
We don't know that. She can't even exist without being "activated" somehow. She can't even be in two places at once. "Consuming creation in fire" doesn't say much about the mechanisms involved.
Incorrect. Phoenix repaired the 616 reality as you know. Considering she makes creation i think its safe to say she can repair it as well. Come on Demi a bit of common sense please.
Common sense dictates that she wouldn't have gotten all panicky about the Crystal breaking if she could just will everything back to normal. It's obviously beyond her power to do without the Crystal. You really can't see that? C'mon, now.
Damn i forgot about X-men forever. Stranger sought to collapse reality so that he could emerge as the supreme being in a new creation and guess who he needed to do it. PHOENIX!!!! Phoenix does it under her own power and collaspses it into a cosmic egg from which the new Eternity is born and eventually the multiverse.
Eternity represents a single universe, which further shows that the Phoenix operates at only a universal level. She CAN'T operate at a multiversal level, which is why she couldn't exist in AOA.
Yeah that makes sense when the multiverse originates from Phoenix lol.
Except it doesn't.
Also reshaping a reality in your hand and amputating its timeline shows you that phoenixes power isnt limited to reality shaping. Plus it was all done under her own power. My baby needs no help 😱
Shaping a SINGLE reality. Not a multiverse. Wanda did the same thing casually, and then extended it to Otherworld. She tore through creation, which Phoenix can only do with the Crystal.
Wanda = Phoenix + M'Kraan Crystal.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotThe thing is she became one with the phoenix force later on. . .
But 616 Jean Grey doesn't exist in the same way anymore under HoM. She was never an X-Woman. She never went into space. She never encountered the Phoenix Force. She may never have existed at all.So if the Phoenix Force exists in HoM then 616 Jean Grey isn't one and the same with the Phoenix. If Jean and the Phoenix are one and the same then both were erased in Wanda's alterations.
So NOW she is one with it. . . However time might be a multiversal thing. Since same events happen at the same time in different realities, hence why we have divergence points for some realities.
Like AOA was 616 up until Leigon killed Xavier. Before that point everything was the same 616. And everything after was split into two.
It's based on the fact that there were never any X-Men in the HoM.
You've spent ages trying to convince everyone that 616 Jean Grey (specifically 616) is one and the same with the Phoenix.
The entire history and reality of 616 has been altered actively by the Scarlet Witch.
In all likelyhood as per Scott and Emma's desires 616->HoM Jean Grey likely never even existed.
616 Jean Grey becomes HoM Jean Grey (if HoM Jean Grey even exists) and thus was never an X-Man because there never were any X-Men. She never went into space because there were never any X-Men. So she never even had her first encounter with the Phoenix.
So if the Phoenix exists in HoM it exists independent of Jean Grey's existence and thus they aren't one and the same.
Or Jean and Phoenix are one and the same and both were altered/erased in HoM.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Hey you're the one that said Wanda destroying reality was proof of her power.Leigon destroyed reality. Guess that's proof of his power huh?
That is the EXACT same thing that Wanda did. She altered history in hopes of it bemcoming a better place. And accidently cause the collapse.
JUST like Wanda.
Different method same damned effect.
The cause of which was using her powers, her intended effect was MAgneto ruling the world. Thus altering history in hopes of creaitng a better place. EXACLTY like Legions intention, to alter history in hopes of creating a better place.
Nom, that's another effect. Histroy altered to fit her specification through use of her powers.
She altered history, so did legion.
That was his intent. To alter history in hopes of making it a better place EXACTLY like Wanda.
And Where's your proof that Wanda has control over the Chaos Wave?
Because you said that destroying reality was a feat, and I'm pointing out that it is one that legion shares.
And neither did legion. But guess what? THAT is the effect that BOTH of them had happen.
and Wanda used her powers to alter history in hopes that it would be a better place.
And wanda knew she'd destroy reality?
Red herring ignored.
Still the red herring.
Different method, same effect. Reality collapses.
doesn't matter. in the end the effect in question (the destruction of reality) is the same. All that's different is the method.
Doesn't even matter. She altered history. So did legion.
To alter history? Hardly, he succeeded at altering history.
Doesn't matter.
The important main parts. not the specifics.
Cause/Intent: to alter history to something more pleaseing
Effect: The destruction of reality.Yeah, beacuse you think that Wanda was trying to DIRECTLY destroy reality as you keep saying "if she wanted to she could destroy reality"
Not at all.
ITS THE SAME DAMNED RESLT: REALITY ****ING COLLAPSES.
Doubtful.
What did legion almost have hapen?What is wanda almost have happening?
What are you claiming? "If wanda wanted to she could destroy reality"
If that proves her power then any time traveler is just as powerful, which is ****ing stupid, but hey "If they want to the can destroy reality" so hey whatever. . .
*sigh* you're still missing the point. The point is that Legion needed the M'Kraan Crystal to do any of that. Wanda does not. Wanda is a threat to the multiverse under her own power. ANYBODY is a threat to the multiverse if they breach the crystal. Wanda is impressive because she's a threat to the multiverse UNDER HER OWN POWER. Legion is not impressive because it wasn't under his own power.
Doesn't get clearer than that.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotAt a certain point.
It's based on the fact that there were never any X-Men in the HoM.
You've spent ages trying to convince everyone that 616 Jean Grey (specifically 616) is one and the same with the Phoenix.
Originally posted by demigawdAs a human. . . though she could be a dissappeared. . .
In all likelyhood as per Scott and Emma's desires 616->HoM Jean Grey likely never even existed.
Originally posted by demigawdHence X-Men Deadly gensis. . Genesis meaning rebirth or restart. . .
616 Jean Grey becomes HoM Jean Grey (if HoM Jean Grey even exists) and thus was never an X-Man because there never were any X-Men.
Originally posted by demigawdAnd thus the problem with no phoenix saga. . .
She never went into space because there were never any X-Men. So she never even had her first encounter with the Phoenix.
[QUOTE=5198093]Originally posted by demigawd
So if the Phoenix exists in HoM it exists independent of Jean Grey's existence and thus they aren't one and the same./[quote] Not if at the point they did become one and the same. . . never happened. . .
Originally posted by Creshosk
And what CAUSED the crystal to threaten destruction?Oh yeah, LEGION. He slew Xavier, he altered history, he was the cause of the destruction of reailty.
Half right. The other half (as I keep saying) is that he broke the crystal in the traveling back in time. Killing Xavier would have been nothing on its own. It was the fact that the crystal broke BEFOREHAND combined with there not being anyone to repair it that caused the big problem.
Again - Legion and Wanda - no comparison.
Originally posted by demigawdTo time travel. That's all.
*sigh* you're still missing the point. The point is that Legion needed the M'Kraan Crystal to do any of that.
Originally posted by demigawdOr prevent the phoenix saga from occuring.
Wanda does not. Wanda is a threat to the multiverse under her own power. ANYBODY is a threat to the multiverse if they breach the crystal.
Originally posted by demigawdSo is anybody else who can timetravel.
Wanda is impressive because she's a threat to the multiverse UNDER HER OWN POWER.
Originally posted by demigawdHe slew Xavier, thus preventing the phoenix saga under his own power.
Legion is not impressive because it wasn't under his own power.
Originally posted by demigawdYou're still confused.
Doesn't get clearer than that.
Originally posted by Creshosk
THERE YOU GO! THIS IS WHEN SHE REPAIRED THE CRYSTAL IN THE REAL REALITY.Slaying Xavier prevented the phoenix saga from occuring.
Slaying Xaiver caused the problem.
So wanda has probably already beten phoenix if the reality alteration caused them to not be mutants.
Wanda prevented the Phoenix saga.
Again, only half right. It was the breaking of the Crystal that started the problem. It was the non-creation of the Phoenix that prevented its solution. You keep getting the latter right but forgetting the former. It's not ANY time traveler, as you keep trying to say, it was someone who breaks the Crystal. But again, it's centered around the Crystal.
Originally posted by demigawdPhoenix Saga. . .
Half right. The other half (as I keep saying) is that he broke the crystal in the traveling back in time. Killing Xavier would have been nothing on its own. It was the fact that the crystal broke BEFOREHAND combined with there not being anyone to repair it that caused the big problem.Again - Legion and Wanda - no comparison.
Originally posted by demigawdPhoenix saga
Again, only half right. It was the breaking of the Crystal that started the problem. It was the non-creation of the Phoenix that prevented its solution. You keep getting the latter right but forgetting the former. It's not ANY time traveler, as you keep trying to say, it was someone who breaks the Crystal. But again, it's centered around the Crystal.