Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I realised we haven't even been discussing what the chaos-wave is. Having read UXM #462 a little closer I've personally come to the conclusion that the chaos wave is directly Wanda's reality manipulation power but with no particular specification to it.[b]Intro (#464)
:Because of Wanda’s reality shake-up, a trans-temporal tsunami of unimaginable force swept outward from our Earth…shattering the walls between dimensions as it spread to the farthest reaches of Crosstime.Unless the chaos-wave is stopped, all reality will devolve into nothingness. The only way is to seal the breach in the dimensional walls that occurred on Earth when the Scarlet Witch altered it’s fundamental reality.
Wanda tore the dimensional wall when she altered the entirety of 616. Her power is flowing outwards from Earth 616 through the tear and manipulating reality unchecked in Otherworld and spreading to other realities.
Meggan: It’s the end, my love. Of all that is! Of all that will ever be!
Saturnyne: All I need is a few seconds… and ‘brane 616 will be no more.
Saturnyne: Your dimension has become a cancer, bringing devastation to ‘branes all along the sidereal string. Sparing you condemns the rest!Roma: I care deeply for you and for your world. But I am also charged with the protection of all-that-is. To preserve the survival – of the greater whole I will not hesitate to sacrifice even this part I so cherish.
The entire 616 reality has been changed. The power driving these changes is breaking through and spilling across dimensional barriers. This will bring about the destruction of all realities. All creation.
Roma: We are witnessing a trans-temporal tsunami, originating from Earth 616. Apparently, there has been an alteration of global proportions that has breached the walls of causality.
Wanda inadvertently breached the walls between dimensions with her power when she remade 616 and her reality altering power is flowing through and wreaking uncontrolled havoc on the reality of Otherworld and spreading.
Roma: Until the breach is sealed, this chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal string to the farthest reaches of imagination, from the sundered planes to the sublimity– perhaps even to the Ascension itself. Left unchecked, all of creation will merge into a single formless amorphous conceptual blob. The very concepts of Order and Chaos will simply… cease. It will be the end of rational existence as we know it.
Roma: The breach fuels the chaos wave. If it is not closed, I must act. You, your world, your entire plane of being -- will be ended.
The breach and the chaos wave aren't the same thing. The breach – a hole in the dimensional wall from 616 – is the aperture through which the chaos wave – a wave of uncontrolled reality alteration – is flowing. Both are directly a result of Wanda's power. The breach must be sealed and the dimensional walls must be restored to stop Wanda’s power from overflowing into the other realities. Or the reality as a whole must be destroyed to destroy the source - the Scarlet Witch and her changes to the 616 reality. If it’s allowed to continue unabated it will destroy all creation. Including the Ascension. [/B]
Interesting kind of supports Demi's ideas
Meggan "The end of all that ever will be"
Nuff said 😄
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
there've just been a lot of misquotes that i've seen, particularly in relation to the AoA...
"If she could, as a mere side effect of trying to make her father happy, start a chain reaction that will destroy all creation, we're dealing with a level of power never before seen in any sentient being in the Marvel Universe."
for someone talking about the AoA so openly, you'd think you could find a way to not make wanda sound exactly like legion. yeah i know it got brought up that legion did it in a much different way than wanda, i just found that specific quote to be hilarious and completely untrue.
"Also, I don't agree that M'Kraan was a reality eraser on a greater scale - its effects were never shown to leave the universe, while we've seen Wanda's power clearly destroy multiple realities."
From Gambit and the X-Ternals #3:
Jahf: "See, the inside of the M'Kraan Crystal -- the Neutron Sun -- is a nexus point between all matter and all anti-matter! That means ALL matter and ALL anti-matter--crossing over to every single DIFFERENT REALITY in existence! Think of the M'Kraan like a doorway... It's necessary to always keep that door CLOSED, not just in ONE reality, but in all of them. If that door were to have been left open... let's say in the world YOU know as "real" -- -- then the DRAFT would eventually reach OTHER realities and worlds, affecting the people which live in them."
Gambit: "Wouldn't SOMEONE have noticed that?"
Jahf: "Exactly ONE person did - the "raving lunatic" you know as Bishop. A CHRONAL ANOMALY, he was present at the EXACT MOMENT when all the different realities split asunder. CHARLES XAVIER'S death meant JEAN GREY was never TRAINED in the use of her powers - - she NEVER became PHOENIX, and therefore never repaired the M'Kraan Crystal in the ACTUAL REALITY."
Gambit: "So then... Bishop was tellin' de truth. OUR reality isn't SUPPOSED to exist... at all?"
Jahf: "'Fraid not, Remy. Worst of it is, when the actual reality FAILED, it was only a matter of TIME before it affected EVERY OTHER REALITY. One collapsing after the next, after the next."
Gambit: "De END of EVERYT'ING."
Jahf: "You've seen the "blinks" - the FRACTURING of the Crystal. We could go just like - *snap* - THAT! Unless YOU do something about it."
Gambit: "Me? Save the Nexus of all Realities? I'm t'inkin' you got me confused wit' somebody else. I'm nothin' but a t'ief, not a - EH?!"
Jahf: "Look - everyBODY everyWHERE everyWHEN is counting on YOU, Gambit! We don't have TIME for this UNCHARACTERISTIC self-effacing CRAP!"
so, yeah, the crystal pretty much can do the same amount of damage as a whacked out gypsy. the illustrations that went along with Jahf's descriptions showed each individual reality as a white thread across a black sky, and when the actual reality "went asunder," its thread began to vibrate and cross over the threads of other realities. presumably, this was when the crystalizing blinks occurred, in all realities involved, and would've reduced all that is to nothing more than the formless amorphous conceptual blob they're hoping to evade this time reality got effed in the a.
if it ultimately fell on jean to fix the same basic destruction of reality the first time around, why wouldn't a stronger conception of the same character be able to do it a second time, just by "fixing" wanda? i mean, she's the "nexus" being ****ing everything up this time...
also, early on, people were saying "well, why hasn't the LT or the Phoenix stepped in to stop her?" that's just a poor understanding of how they operate. if you read toward the end of the x-man series, you'll understand this analogy a bit better, but follow anyway. in x-man, the multiverse was presented as a 'spiral' of earths, ascending up and down from 616. above 616, the earths were considerably more peaceful and "perfect," the uppermost earth being home to the Brilliant City, the epitome of perfection. Everyone in the Brilliant City knows of the Spiral (the Darknesses, they call the lesser Earths,) and either refuses to leave or refuses to allow any "taint" from outside the City (even those who left and are returning) to exist within the City. Below 616, things are considerably less peaceful and perfect, and are along different stages of evolution and conquest. they're unimportant for this analogy.
there was a whole big conflict with a woman, idris, who learned something she couldn't have learned and spread her essence out among the countless earths of the spiral. when all was said and done, all she learned was that their "spiral" was but one of a countless "spiral of spirals," and that there were beings so completely omnipotent that they take no notice of our "spiral," and those in the Brilliant City are less to them than those of the bottom Earth in the Spiral are to those in the BC.
and it's LT's job to govern all of them, to ensure the safety of the spiral of spirals of spirals of spirals of spirals. you can understand why one being threatening the existence of a spiral several rungs down the chain is of little concern or consequence to him, or in concurrence, the phoenix. in Here Comes Tomorrow, Jean took the powers of the Phoenix to save the earth she was attached to, and to spur creation around those she loved. BUT, at the end of HCT, and certainly after Endsong, she learned that her place was above or beside the LT, and her petty attachments to our Earth were lost. so hey, go figure, no phoenix.
and who's to say that the LT and Phoenix didn't step in because they couldn't. perhaps they just knew it would solve itself, and saw no purpose in immediate interference. after all, the only lasting effects wanda's actions will have will be to resurrect a couple dead people and greatly set back evolution. not stop, nor threaten creation. doesn't seem like the phoenix's province, to me.
Originally posted by Disappear
there've just been a lot of misquotes that i've seen, particularly in relation to the AoA..."If she could, as a mere side effect of trying to make her father happy, start a chain reaction that will destroy all creation, we're dealing with a level of power never before seen in any sentient being in the Marvel Universe."
for someone talking about the AoA so openly, you'd think you could find a way to not make wanda sound exactly like legion. yeah i know it got brought up that legion did it in a much different way than wanda, i just found that specific quote to be hilarious and completely untrue.
"Also, I don't agree that M'Kraan was a reality eraser on a greater scale - its effects were never shown to leave the universe, while we've seen Wanda's power clearly destroy multiple realities."
From Gambit and the X-Ternals #3:
Jahf: "See, the inside of the M'Kraan Crystal -- the Neutron Sun -- is a nexus point between all matter and all anti-matter! That means ALL matter and ALL anti-matter--crossing over to every single DIFFERENT REALITY in existence! Think of the M'Kraan like a doorway... It's necessary to always keep that door CLOSED, not just in ONE reality, but in all of them. If that door were to have been left open... let's say in the world YOU know as "real" -- -- then the DRAFT would eventually reach OTHER realities and worlds, affecting the people which live in them."
Gambit: "Wouldn't SOMEONE have noticed that?"
Jahf: "Exactly ONE person did - the "raving lunatic" you know as Bishop. A CHRONAL ANOMALY, he was present at the EXACT MOMENT when all the different realities split asunder. CHARLES XAVIER'S death meant JEAN GREY was never TRAINED in the use of her powers - - she NEVER became PHOENIX, and therefore never repaired the M'Kraan Crystal in the ACTUAL REALITY."
Gambit: "So then... Bishop was tellin' de truth. OUR reality isn't SUPPOSED to exist... at all?"
Jahf: "'Fraid not, Remy. Worst of it is, when the actual reality FAILED, it was only a matter of TIME before it affected EVERY OTHER REALITY. One collapsing after the next, after the next."
Gambit: "De END of EVERYT'ING."
Jahf: "You've seen the "blinks" - the FRACTURING of the Crystal. We could go just like - *snap* - THAT! Unless YOU do something about it."
Gambit: "Me? Save the Nexus of all Realities? I'm t'inkin' you got me confused wit' somebody else. I'm nothin' but a t'ief, not a - EH?!"
Jahf: "Look - everyBODY everyWHERE everyWHEN is counting on YOU, Gambit! We don't have TIME for this UNCHARACTERISTIC self-effacing CRAP!"so, yeah, the crystal pretty much can do the same amount of damage as a whacked out gypsy. the illustrations that went along with Jahf's descriptions showed each individual reality as a white thread across a black sky, and when the actual reality "went asunder," its thread began to vibrate and cross over the threads of other realities. presumably, this was when the crystalizing blinks occurred, in all realities involved, and would've reduced all that is to nothing more than the formless amorphous conceptual blob they're hoping to evade this time reality got effed in the a.
if it ultimately fell on jean to fix the same basic destruction of reality the first time around, why wouldn't a stronger conception of the same character be able to do it a second time, just by "fixing" wanda? i mean, she's the "nexus" being ****ing everything up this time...
also, early on, people were saying "well, why hasn't the LT or the Phoenix stepped in to stop her?" that's just a poor understanding of how they operate. if you read toward the end of the x-man series, you'll understand this analogy a bit better, but follow anyway. in x-man, the multiverse was presented as a 'spiral' of earths, ascending up and down from 616. above 616, the earths were considerably more peaceful and "perfect," the uppermost earth being home to the Brilliant City, the epitome of perfection. Everyone in the Brilliant City knows of the Spiral (the Darknesses, they call the lesser Earths,) and either refuses to leave or refuses to allow any "taint" from outside the City (even those who left and are returning) to exist within the City. Below 616, things are considerably less peaceful and perfect, and are along different stages of evolution and conquest. they're unimportant for this analogy.
there was a whole big conflict with a woman, idris, who learned something she couldn't have learned and spread her essence out among the countless earths of the spiral. when all was said and done, all she learned was that their "spiral" was but one of a countless "spiral of spirals," and that there were beings so completely omnipotent that they take no notice of our "spiral," and those in the Brilliant City are less to them than those of the bottom Earth in the Spiral are to those in the BC.
and it's LT's job to govern all of them, to ensure the safety of the spiral of spirals of spirals of spirals of spirals. you can understand why one being threatening the existence of a spiral several rungs down the chain is of little concern or consequence to him, or in concurrence, the phoenix. in Here Comes Tomorrow, Jean took the powers of the Phoenix to save the earth she was attached to, and to spur creation around those she loved. BUT, at the end of HCT, and certainly after Endsong, she learned that her place was above or beside the LT, and her petty attachments to our Earth were lost. so hey, go figure, no phoenix.
and who's to say that the LT and Phoenix didn't step in because they couldn't. perhaps they just knew it would solve itself, and saw no purpose in immediate interference. after all, the only lasting effects wanda's actions will have will be to resurrect a couple dead people and greatly set back evolution. not stop, nor threaten creation. doesn't seem like the phoenix's province, to me.
a good post but "all" marvel realities are being affected by Wanda -
Phoenix seems to be in shards -
The whole reality being seems to be being affected and resurrecting people is probably more than a butterfly flapping its wings😉 You understand "Chaos" theory of course🙂
So no Phoenix go figure 🙂
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
besides making "all realities" a subjective term, considering the 'spiral of spirals' concept, i also pointed out that "all" realities were being affected by the m'kraan crystal during the AoA. it's the same scenario, just with a different origin. why wouldn't the same solution [phoenix fixing the nexus being in question] herald the same results? there's no strong argument to say it wouldn't, but there is argument to say it's not necessary, as a group of lesser beings are doing it themselves.
Originally posted by Disappear
besides making "all realities" a subjective term, considering the 'spiral of spirals' concept, i also pointed out that "all" realities were being affected by the m'kraan crystal during the AoA. it's the same scenario, just with a different origin. why wouldn't the same solution [phoenix fixing the nexus being in question] herald the same results? there's no strong argument to say it wouldn't, but there is argument to say it's not necessary, as a group of lesser beings are doing it themselves.
Phoenix has had to intervene for less before 🙂
but anyway I liked you post despite the flaws I pointed out and it is an argument - however on percieved feats not rhetoric Wanda is now higher imo.
🙂
what flaws were pointed out? the fact that you saying "all" realities is of the same limited perception as anyone from "our spiral" saying all? the fact that jean, though shattered, has already been back to earth? or the fact that she's accepted her cosmic responsibilities, as was brought up both in HCT and Endsong, and simply needs not reappear for such a small instance [when you look at the 'big picture' as she and the LT most certainly would see it]?
i see no flaws pointed out, and the only "strength? of your argument is that 'in your opinion' wanda's stronger...
Originally posted by Disappear
what flaws were pointed out? the fact that you saying "all" realities is of the same limited perception as anyone from "our spiral" saying all? the fact that jean, though shattered, has already been back to earth? or the fact that she's accepted her cosmic responsibilities, as was brought up both in HCT and Endsong, and simply needs not reappear for such a small instance [when you look at the 'big picture' as she and the LT most certainly would see it]?i see no flaws pointed out, and the only "strength? of your argument is that 'in your opinion' wanda's stronger...
imo Wanda's stronger, I don't see it as "limited perception" "all realities being affected", I see it ass a different writer with a different emphasis🙂
The real reason noones interferring is............. they can't🙂
Your argument simply put cuts both ways - its the Phoenix forces job to recreate and end universes, if its potentially the end of everything 🙂 Why isn't she doing something - Anyway Phoenix is in shards still isn't she 🙂
Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda's influence had clearly extended to Otherworld willingly if it lifted several Otherworld characters (like Brian and Meggan) and suddenly placed them in 616 in positions of power in England, even restoring Brian's Captain Britain title from Kelsey Leigh - OVERRIDING Roma's power in the process. If that's not multiversal reach, I don't know what is.
No that does NOT equal multiversal power im afraid. If Scarlet Witchs power could effect other universes without the need to cause a breach in 616 then id have to agree with you. All shed done is sprung a leak in the works of creation. She hasnt been shown to be able to submerge creation in her power from the offset. The likes of Thanos, Nightmare and Dormammu have been shown to be able to exact their power on 616 when a breach is made between their prison and Marvel then i guess they have multiversal power as well right? Precisely. When Wanda can shape the reality of the multiverse without first tearing a breach then you'll have a point. From beyond the multiverse Jean amputated a timeline and then reshaped and healed the 616 reality. That is multiversal power. All done on a whim and from beyond creation. Its quite evident from that, that she could if she chose shape other universes just as easily. If a reality is just a globe of energy within her palm then noone can doubt the multiversal reach of phoenix.
Originally posted by demigawd
He threatened to take it over, not destroy it entirely. As LT himself said, he doesn't care about the transfer of power, just that the multiverse as a whole is preserved. The destruction of all creation that Wanda will cause is identical in scope to the threat of the M'Kraan Crystal. But it seems Phoenix can only act if Phoenix is alive. Phoenix is not. Not very omnipotent if you ask me, GS. 🙁
The fact that the problem was dealt with by a bunch of heroes tells you the problem while potentially having the same capacity for destruction as the crystal was far from that stage on panel and therefore below the notice of the likes of LT and Phoenix.
The situation wanda caused as stated could be ended either by merely sealing the breach or by wiping out 616. Two things easily within Phoenixes power if achievable by Otherworld tech and Captain Britain lol. The crystal malfunctioning and blinking out existence isnt something that can be solved by wiping out the crystal (not that anything could).
You naively said that the fact that Phoenix couldnt fix reality herself but had to fix the crystal to fix existence was proof of her lack of true power. That was naive my friend. The crystal is the nexus of all realities it is the gateway to the omega point. It cannot be destroyed it is integral to existence and phoenix is connected to it. Its phoenixes heart. That is why phoenix is the only one who can fix it and why she needs to fix it in the first place. Fixing reality as opposed to addressing the root cause of the problem is akin to leaving a bath running causing a flood in the bathroom but instead of turning off the tap , you scoop the water back into the bath. That was a bit silly mate im disappointed. 🙁
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, ok. And to think, Wanda only threatens the continued existence of ALL CREATION. Good thing she's not a threat to evolution, like Sublime, otherwise Phoenix really would have brought down the hammer on her ass....
Wandas power was merely the catalyst for the situation. The resultant chaos wave was a tsunami spinning out of control and she had no power over it. This problem was easily fixable by destroying 616 and that line of action was well within the capabilities of Otherworld tech. LT or my baby werent required.
Originally posted by demigawd
So she decided that getting rid of Sublime is something worth her time to prevent her friends from having a crappy future, but stopping Wanda "destroying creation" Maximoff wasn't? Phoenix is denser than you are if that's the case. 😆
You've misinterpreted my statement Demi and in the process highlighted the fact that you havent even read the comics yet are happily making statements on about their content? Hmmm.
Getting rid of Sublime was Phoenix work because Sublime could potentially control evolution which as you know from my teachings young padewan could place the bacteria on a level beyond the abstracts and LT and therefore making it a true multiversal threat. To stop Sublime Jean amputated the 616 realitys future which left it dislocated from the multiverse. That basically killed it. Left it in a static state. As that was the universe Jean came from she was upset as she had basically killed all of her friends and family as a result of carrying out her job. This was of no consequence to a phoenix as quentin quire showed by saying "he'd just leave it to die." However Jean being sentimental decided to reconstruct that reality telekinetically and she shaped it a new future on a whim. Understand son?
Originally posted by demigawd
And yet isn't present for anything when Jean is dead. So the moral of this story is - if you don't want the Phoenix to f*ck up your plans, kill Jean, then proceed to destroy the multiverse.
Phoenix is present through other members of the phoenix corps when Jean is dead (in the white hot room) however she and they only manifest in creation to carry out the work only a phoenix can do. Opal and Otherworld tech had that house of magnus b*tch locked down.
Originally posted by demigawd
Wow, GS, you've convinced me - your b*tch is the easiest omnipotent being to nullify in all of comics
Nothing compared to getting handled by circuit boards.
Originally posted by demigawd
That's ok - neither could Phoenix. You're the expert, and you're telling me that you forgot that Phoenix could NOT fix the M'Kraan Crystal on her own? Phoenix "didn't have the power" to repair reality. She needed two human anchors, and even then couldn't repair it. She needed the entire team's lifeforce. She created the multiverse and couldn't fix it on her own? She needed BOTH the Crystal AND a bunch of lifeforces to fix a little tear in reality? 😖ick:
Silly boy Demi. You're way over your head here with all this phoenix stuff. Id wade out before you get submerged.
I forgot nothing i just knew something you didnt know. The omega point contained within the crystal is where Phoenix is derived from. Its her heart she revolves around it. That is why only she can fix the M'kraan crystal and also why when she was fixing it she talked of feeling like her very being was being absorbed when she applied her energies there. Phoenix is a level of consciousness that exists within this crown a higher plane of existence so Jean needed to anchor herself to the physical reality in order to fix the problem.
The malfuntioning M'kraan crystal is far from the equivalent of a tear in reality. Its the equivalent of all doors in each universe being open allowing a draft effect to run rampant through creation. Wandas botch job tore a hole in one reality which allowed the draft effect into the next causing problems in Otherworld. While potentially this effect could eventually reach M'kraan Crystal proportions it hadnt done in house of M and thus was well within the capabilities of Otherworld tech. So what phoenix did was seal all of those doors which is well beyond fixing Wandas tear in reality.
Originally posted by demigawd
This isn't a very good resume for your b*tch, I'm afraid. 🙁
My b*tch holds up just fine as ive just taught you son lol.
Originally posted by demigawd
So so far we have Wanda = Phoenix M'Kraan Crystal X-men
Only from a horrible understanding of both house of M and the M'kraan crystal.
Originally posted by demigawd
You didn't even have to get that obscure - Captain Britan and Megan sealed up the rift this past issue. But again - Wanda only accidentally opened that rift. Nobody could stop her if she just thought, "You know what, screw all of you" and just blew the whole thing wide up. Who could stop her? Not Ms. "I can't do anything because I'm a dead immortal" Phoenix
Considering a tear in reality is no comparison to all of the doors across the multiverse being open Phoenix most certainly could handle Wanda if she did that in the future. However way before such a crisis could reach M'kraan levels of destruction Otherworld tech would have fried 616 and that house of m whore along with it.
Originally posted by demigawd
I'm avidly reading HoM. It's the god damned House of MAGNUS! You should know better.
After all of my teachings im disappointed to say YOU should have known better.
Originally posted by demigawd
Apparently it is if Phoenix needed both the Crystal AND a bunch of human sacrifices to do it. Wanda just went, "Oh, my bad" and there was the hole.
A breach in 616, a thousand breaches in 616 is still no comparison to every single door in each universe being open as was the case with the M'kraan. While potentially Wandas machinations could reach such levels with time they certainly couldnt surpass them, unless Wanda can somehow transcend the borders of reality and apply her power to the entire multiverse? Thought not. Anyway ive explained the deal with phoenix and the crystal hopefully you wont make the same mistakes again. Its always a good idea to be clued up on the subject matter before you make brash statements on it.
Originally posted by demigawd
Also something Phoenix couldn't exist without. So what?(not that Phoenix exists now anyway, but still....lol)
Not true sonny. Beings who arent restricted to the borders of reality those who exist beyond creation would get along just fine. The rest would just cease to exist.
Originally posted by demigawd
WTF???? Where the hell did you get that definition from????
Another example of your ignorance on the subject matter. Seriously Demi get a clue.
Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix has NEVER been shown to do anything multiversal. Otherwise she wouldn't need to be Jean Grey and activated in every reality - she'd encompass all of them, and the AOA would never have had its creation-destroying problem because Phoenix would have been beyond any single reality. Get your Phoenix history straight, you're slippin, GS. 😉
I dont understand your point about the AOA. Less waffle give it to me straight lol.
Your understanding of the whole thing is horrible Demi. What a mess. Allow me to clear it up for you. There is one Phoenix just like there is one LT it is a level of consciousness more than anything. The closest thing it has to human form is Jean. They are one and the same she is a true avatar a direct manifestation of phoenix on the physical plane. However the other members of the phoenix corps while one with the force (i.e its there mutation to be a phoenix) they dont have the special relationship with the power that Jean does therefore she is the White Phoenix of Crown. Jeans power is spread across the multiverse in the form of these host bodies who manifest throughout creation to carry out their phoenix work. One phoenix, one energy source, as opposed to loads of alternate reality phoenix forces. That is multiversal. Just like the LT you see in a What If is the same one we see in 616 comics. Again that is multiversal. It seems this multiversal talk confuses you Demi. The fact that Phoenix resides in the white hot room shows you she is beyond any single reality.
Originally posted by demigawd
It's continuity, though, isn't it? And even now....no Phoenix! In fact, it seems a recurring theme, doesn't it? Whenever there's no Jean (or an untrained Jean), there's no Phoenix. Jean never became Phoenix in AOA - no Phoenix to stop omniversal destruction. Jean is killed by Xorneto, no Jean to stop omniversal destruction in HoM. Seems consistent to me.
No recurring theme. Your ignorance on the subject but strong insistence on critiquing the matter remains a constant however.
Lt and Phoenix as multiversal beings can see the outcome of events. (New X-men 154) The hows and whys are obvious please dont make me have to spell it out.
Just like Otherworld tech and/or the heroes had Wanda locked down so to did Gambit in the AOA. There was no need for intervention when Gambits actions corrected the timline and meant Phoenixs intervention went ahead as per the actual reality.
No phoenix just like there was no LT for house of M because the threat was easily handled by 616 heroes. Potentially Wandas efforts were creation ending but the b*tch got shut down long before.
In the AOA one shot Phoenix appearred anyway further relegating your point to the forum garbage can.
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, you did it again! Phoenix hosts throughout the multiverse, yet we need JEAN to fix the Crystal otherwise the omniverse dies, huh? Phoenix hosts throughout the muliverse, and yet the omniverse is going to die because nobody can stop Wanda.
Jean is Phoenix whilst the hosts tap into and employ its power throughout creation in alternate universes. As the heart of Phoenix only Jean is the qualified one to deal with situation.
For further education follow this link:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f49/t368313.html
What do you mean its going to die because noone can stop Wanda? Her botch job got dealt with by CB and Meggan. Hardly a Phoenix/LT worthy situation.
Originally posted by demigawd
Sound advice. It helps even more to read it carefully - try it some time.
Hmmmmmm
Originally posted by demigawd
For example: Phoenix was NOT in AOA untillllll....she died, which took place while reality was being saved by other people. There was NO Phoenix until after then, so my point stands exactly as it did before. No recollection of anything, no restoration of anything...no real consequence. So again, Ms. Multiverse is unable to show until Jean dies and is reborn. Phoenix is powerless until then, and even worse, powerless AGAIN if Jean dies. Phoenix is always powerless, isn't she? Wimp.
Ummm your "points" come from an awful understanding and im really quite embarassed for you. Wheres the competent Demi of old?
Phoenix dying to be reborn is just a plot device. It all makes for an extra bit of drama and it fits in with the whole phoenix mythology of phoenixes dying and rising from the ashes. You're really stretching for points with this here Dem.
As Jean actually is Phoenix im puzzled by your comments. Visit the link above or better still read the comics relevant to the character.
As shown on panel Jean had the power before she died. Manifesting into creation it seems goes some way into making Jean/Phoenix forget her role. (I guess its one of the disadvantages of being in human form) Its through death that she remembers and death after all is inconsequential to her as its only the death of her physical body which is just a shell for her true form. How is Phoenix powerless with the death of her physical body? As shown by New X-men 150 and stated in issue 128 if she dies it was because she was meant to. Because thats what her work called for. (Or her existence in the physical world at that point wasnt a part of her phoenix work) Fixing the 616 reality from the white hot room is hardly powerless is it Demi?
Originally posted by demigawd
Right. That corp would come in handy right now, wouldn't they? They would have come in handy in AOA too. And yet, instead Jean needs to die in one timeline in order to have an effect on another.
Sending in Phoenix to deal with a b*tch who can get sorted out with Otherworld tech and/or Cb and Meggan is extreme overkill.
AOA got dealt with by Gambit and as for that dying thing i believe thats handled above.
Phoenix or LT just werent required.
Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix = most useless cosmic being in the MU
Nope. I believe that honour goes to Magneto Prime. He died before he was featured on panel LOL
Originally posted by demigawd
Good try, but falls a wee bit short. Phoenix has still not been shown to operate multiversally. Phoenix couldn't even repair the M'Kraan Crystal on her own. Every Phoenix in every reality we've seen (where Jean isn't dead 😆 ) has its own memories and no shared knowledge, displayed the way it is by Eternity, LT, or hell, even Japf. Does anything AOA Phoenix say show any inkling of any cosmic knowledge? We have no evidence whatsoever to show that it's a single entity across the multiverse. I assume you know what an avatar is, though that's probably a bold assumption given what you've said here, lol.
Since Endsong only recently confirmed that Jean and Phoenix are indeed one and the same there hasnt been another appearance of Phoenix in the comics so your point falls flat on its face im afraid.
The AOA happened during the phoenix retcon and the One shot picked up from where that left off. Therefore Jean wouldnt have been the multiversal entity as first interpreted in New X-men and cemented by Endsong, but instead a mutant who could tap into the Phoenixs power. Therefore how would she have shared knowledge when in that comic (which clearly followed the 86 retcon interpretation) she would just be tapping into the power of a multiversal entity as opposed to being it.
For evidence of Jean being multiversal one only has to refer to the very recent Phoenix endsong 5 where Jean of 616 refers to events from the Here Comes Tomorrow story arc. That altenate future reality she amputated from 616. That alternate reality had a Jean in it that referred to events from 616 and then in Endsong Jean refers to the disinfection phoenix carried out in that alternate future.
Originally posted by demigawd
Tell ya what, sunshine - post some scans of a single Phoenix Force operating across all realities and we'll talk.
Here ya go pumpkin no problem:
616 Jean referring to what Phoenix did in Here Comes Tomorrow story arc:
Heres Jean fixing a universe in her hand from beyond creation which is again multiversal:
Lets not forget the fact that Phoenix projected Excaliburs light house throughout the entire multiverse.
There you have it son.
The M'kraan crystal opened all the doors of the multiverse as opposed to wanda tearing a hole through reality. Phoenix closed all of those doors. As an integral part of existence and as the source of the problem of course phoenix is going to fix it as opposed to treating the symptoms whilst leaving the root of the problem untreated and free to cause more trouble. Dealing with the M'kraan means that if the scale of what wanda caused ever reached the crystal levels she would be able to deal with it. As it stands it was only a single tear in one reality. It had the potential but that was never realised thanks to CB and Meggan LOL.
Phoenix could close a hole punched through reality:
As for the act of punching a hole in reality itself, Bubonicus could do that in Guardians of the Galaxy yet he got dealt with by a shape shifter and Iceman wannabe. X-man accidentally did it. Damn even Trion Juggernaut did it and he got handled by Xavier. This ability isnt something only Wandas been shown to do. Its just that others arent virtually insane, they have experience using their powers and have no intention of unleashing cataclysmic forces which would destroy both them and everything else. (Remember for all we know this destruction wanda unleashed would have claimed her as well eventually)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for the act of punching a hole in reality itself, Bubonicus could do that in Guardians of the Galaxy yet he got dealt with by a shape shifter and Iceman wannabe. X-man accidentally did it. Damn even Trion Juggernaut did it and he got handled by Xavier. This ability isnt something only Wandas been shown to do. Its just that others arent virtually insane, they have experience using their powers and have no intention of unleashing cataclysmic forces which would destroy both them and everything else. (Remember for all we know this destruction wanda unleashed would have claimed her as well eventually) [/B]
There is one big DIFFERENCE
WANDA IS “CHANGING” REALITY TO HER WILL < CHANGING TO WHAT SHE WANTS REALITY TO BE.
One glaring thing I'll point out, though - everything in your scans refers to "universe", not multiverse, not omniverse. It's already been shown that there's one Eternity for each reality - I'm afraid you still haven't proven multiversal change that she's enacted. 🙁
Good try, though.
Keep the faith! 🤘
Stay Demi! 🤘
Originally posted by kgkg
There is one big DIFFERENCEWANDA IS “CHANGING” REALITY TO HER WILL < CHANGING TO WHAT SHE WANTS REALITY TO BE.
Again a case of misunderstanding on your part KG. From this i doubt you've read House of M. 😉
Wanda changed the 616 reality however the abuse of her abilities ripped a hole in reality causing a chaos wave to spill through into Otherworld and potentially other realities. The chaos wave was a result of Wandas amateur tamperings as was the rupture in reality. All of the destruction wasnt Wandas power but the result of her amateur application of it. She basically lit a fuse.
With all of that aside Wanda is very powerful and can bend reality to her will however Franklin Richards created an entire pocket reality of his own. Thats beyond Wanda warping the 616 reality to her will.
Wanda unwittingly set off a chain reaction which could potentially end the multiverse. She could do it intentionally as well, but its not her power