Scarlet Witch (current) vs. Phoenix Force Jean

I invented the idea of Wanda Prime as a joke weeks ago asserting that the power had nothing to do with Magneto - thus Magneto Prime was dead a while ago... demi just wouldn't believe me. He took my Wanda Prime and tried to face off against Phoenix. I thought I'd see where the thread led and I'd say it's safe to assume Wanda is right up there. I'd put her above Franklin Richards in sheer power, possibly Abstract level in terms of sheer power - considering to remake 616 reality to your desire is as if 616 Eternity - as the embodiment of the universe - was a dog and you said "I like cats better." so you turned it into a cat.

I just happened to notice the incongruity between the two assertions, which really still stands. From what you're saying now you are in fact still implying that the character Jean Grey with all her history etc is unnecessary to the Phoenix. In which case it's not so much the character Jean Grey = Phoenix as the Phoenix Force = Phoenix, and the character Jean Grey is still superfluous to it's existence, and it took her memories and likes to look like her.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I invented the idea of Wanda Prime as a joke weeks ago asserting that the power had nothing to do with Magneto - thus Magneto Prime was dead a while ago... demi just wouldn't believe me. He took my Wanda Prime and tried to face off against Phoenix. I thought I'd see where the thread led and I'd say it's safe to assume Wanda is right up there. I'd put her above Franklin Richards in sheer power, possibly Abstract level in terms of sheer power - considering to remake 616 reality to your desire is as if 616 Eternity - as the embodiment of the universe - was a dog and you said "I like cats better." so you turned it into a cat.

I just happened to notice the incongruity between the two assertions, which really still stands. From what you're saying now you are in fact still implying that the character Jean Grey with all her history etc is unnecessary to the Phoenix. In which case it's not so much the character Jean Grey = Phoenix as the Phoenix Force = Phoenix, and the character Jean Grey is still superfluous to it's existence, and it took her memories and likes to look like her.

Thats not what im saying at all. Did you not read my last post?

No offence but please read it again carefully before replying.

Phoenix is Jean Greys archetypal form, it is her true form. " You were always there waiting for yourself to arrive" blah blah blah.

So how can you say im saying Jean Grey is superfluos to Phoenixes existence when Jean Grey is Phoenix. The Jean Grey physical form we see on earth is just a shell, however as you saw from New Xmen Jean Grey exists just fine in the white hot room as the White Phoenix of Crown.

Our true forms exist already in the white hot room. Phoenix is Jeans true form. That is what appeared before the Jean Grey on the space shuttle.

Out of what i told you how can you get that im implying Phoenix just took her memories and likes to look like her?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I invented the idea of Wanda Prime as a joke weeks ago asserting that the power had nothing to do with Magneto - thus Magneto Prime was dead a while ago... demi just wouldn't believe me. He took my Wanda Prime and tried to face off against Phoenix. I thought I'd see where the thread led and I'd say it's safe to assume Wanda is right up there. I'd put her above Franklin Richards in sheer power, possibly Abstract level in terms of sheer power - considering to remake 616 reality to your desire is as if 616 Eternity - as the embodiment of the universe - was a dog and you said "I like cats better." so you turned it into a cat.

Considering a young Franklin created his own pocket universe on the side then i have no doubt he is more powerful than Wanda who merely warped 616. We have no evidence that it was the entire reality especially with Roma saying it was a "global alteration" and that point being repeated many a time throughout the series and stated every issue in the intro. The alien races that appeared are more likely creations of Wanda. Just like they were in Dissassembled. Id place Wanda between cube beings and Galactus/Celestial level.

You said that if I erase Elaine and John Grey from existence and 616 Jean Grey is never created, she's somehow still Phoenix even though the character Jean Grey never would have existed in the reality at all.

The history is what makes the character, not the outward appearance or the level of power. If Jean Grey's existence is unnecessary to her being Phoenix - and she is as you say just a shell - then the name Jean Grey is meaningless, the history is meaningless, and all there is to the character is it's appearance and powers in which case all there is is Phoenix => Phoenix = Phoenix.

So I still don't get what your trying to assert - but it's awfully convoluted.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You said that if I erase Elaine and John Grey from existence and 616 Jean Grey is never created, she's somehow still Phoenix even though the character Jean Grey never would have existed in the reality at all.

The history is what makes the character, not the outward appearance or the level of power. If Jean Grey's existence is unnecessary to her being Phoenix - and she is as you say just a shell - then the name Jean Grey is meaningless, the history is meaningless, and all there is to the character is it's appearance and powers in which case all there is is Phoenix => Phoenix = Phoenix.

So I still don't get what your trying to assert - but it's awfully convoluted.

Thats not the case at all. You're applying the terms of your average person to Jean Grey whom as you should know is not that. Far from it. The very essence of Jean Grey the very core of who she is, her archetypal form predated her physical birth on Earth. It existed in the white hot room. Jean Grey is indeed Phoenix her birth into creation made her forget her true self. Life helped her remember it. That is a basic Kaballah idea that was the basis behind the Jean Grey/Phoenix character.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Considering a young Franklin created his own pocket universe on the side then i have no doubt he is more powerful than Wanda who merely warped 616. We have no evidence that it was the entire reality especially with Roma saying it was a "global alteration" and that point being repeated many a time throughout the series and stated every issue in the intro. The alien races that appeared are more likely creations of Wanda. Just like they were in Dissassembled. Id place Wanda between cube beings and Galactus/Celestial level.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats not the case at all. You're applying the terms of your average person to Jean Grey whom as you should know is not that. Far from it. The very essence of Jean Grey the very core of who she is, her archetypal form predated her physical birth on Earth. It existed in the white hot room. Jean Grey is indeed Phoenix her birth into creation made her forget her true self. Life helped her remember it. That is a basic Kaballah idea that was the basis behind the Jean Grey/Phoenix character.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The evidence for it being "global" is one word from Roma. The introductions state that the Earth has been altered, which is the important part to the story, however they also state that core fundamental reality has been altered. No evidence aside from New Thunderbolts in which Kree/Skrull history has been altered entirely - you have no evidence to say they're just creations of Wanda. No evidence except that Saturnyne states that brane 616 has become a danger to the other realities. No evidence except that Roma and Saturnyne were prepared to nullify the entire brane rather than just the Earth - if only a single cell in a body is broken you destroy the entire body? No evidence except for the alteration of the Inhumans history. No evidence except that reality 616 Heather Hudson pulled the Exiles out of 616 because Wanda was remaking reality again.

Im just going by what Roma said and what the intros of each issue said. 😄

Either way Franklin as a child can create pocket universes reaching full potential hes stated to be Celestial level.

Thererfore i stand by what i said when i place wanda between cube beings and Galactus/ Celestial level.

Wanda cant control her powers and need the power of Xavier and the support of Pietro to apply them as she did. Even then she still f*cked up.

Without their aid we have her performance in Dissassembled to go by. Hmmmmm 😕 😂

I cant believe you dared line this mess up against phoenix. 😉

I didn't line her up against Phoenix, demi did, I just gave Wanda Prime life.

If by f*cked up you mean exerted her powers so much as to breach the walls between dimensions - then yeh she did. Being powerful and crazy doesn't mean you're not powerful. She has the power to remake all reality yet she lacks the mental stability. She seems pretty much in control in HoM #7 - we've yet to see if and how Xavier helped. She has enough control of her powers to just not want there to be mutants anymore and release another "white flash" remaking reality once more. It's just that she's looney as a toon.

Franklin's little world seems small fry in comparison - if he's so powerful why doesn't he just remake those parents of his that Wanda killed...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I didn't line her up against Phoenix, demi did, I just gave Wanda Prime life.

If by f*cked up you mean exerted her powers so much as to breach the walls between dimensions - then yeh she did. Being powerful and crazy doesn't mean you're not powerful. She has the power to remake all reality yet she lacks the mental stability. She seems pretty much in control in HoM #7 - we've yet to see if and how Xavier helped. She has enough control of her powers to just not want there to be mutants anymore and release another "white flash" remaking reality once more. It's just that she's looney as a toon.

Franklin's little world seems small fry in comparison - if he's so powerful why doesn't he just remake those parents of his that Wanda killed...

By f*cked i mean the crazy b*tch didnt know how the hell to use her powers and even with the help of Xavier she still lacked control enough to perform anything other than a botch job, which messed reality up so much that not only could she potentially have destroyed creation but her psycho ass wouldve got taken down along with it.

Hasnt Franklin temporarily lost his powers? Hmmm

Also please remember hes about 8 years old and has far from reached his potential yet he could make a pocket universe. Imagine what he could achieve when fully grown like wanda. Feasibly a whole lot more than just warping 616.

Either way Wanda is between cube beings and the likes of Galactus/Celestials.

look gs, ur obvious addiction to the character has made u go blind and interpret in the absolute most powerful manifestation you can think of based on almost no fact, fact is like ALL retcons marvel did not think this through properly and are themselves confused{and yes u r callin whirly biased, but what about you u obviously support this ridiculous position of the character cause u LOVE her} on what the position of the pheonix and hence jean grey is , im sure another retcon will come about soon enough either truly making the pheonix as an abstract on par with eternity or just the classic representation of love, desire, lust and all life yet unborn, but EITHER way if any1 has any sense they would have to say that pheonix is as it was before, a mindless entity of great power who came in contact with jean and developed a bond as close of that as a soul, but in reality jean is NOT pheonix, cause otherwise just about every comic marvel has written would have to be considered false and retconned and thas sumthin even marvel isnt crazy enough to do. pheonix and jean are very close in essence but the human birth of jean no matter how significant to the universe will always have to be their and jean will never BE pheonix.

n yea franklin is currently supressing his power aided by a new psi dampner by reed richards, franklin got full control of his potential back after apparently losin his power cause of galactus's resurrection but that was revealed to be not enough to deplete his power, but reed got afraid of franklin's awesome power again{specially after eternity showed a personal interest in him} and tried n helped frank fight it off. anyway its been a while since i read much on the subject, must be months.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
look gs, ur obvious addiction to the character has made u go blind and interpret in the absolute most powerful manifestation you can think of based on almost no fact, fact is like ALL retcons marvel did not think this through properly and are themselves confused{and yes u r callin whirly biased, but what about you u obviously support this ridiculous position of the character cause u LOVE her} on what the position of the pheonix and hence jean grey is , im sure another retcon will come about soon enough either truly making the pheonix as an abstract on par with eternity or just the classic representation of love, desire, lust and all life yet unborn, but EITHER way if any1 has any sense they would have to say that pheonix is as it was before, a mindless entity of great power who came in contact with jean and developed a bond as close of that as a soul, but in reality jean is NOT pheonix, cause otherwise just about every comic marvel has written would have to be considered false and retconned and thas sumthin even marvel isnt crazy enough to do. pheonix and jean are very close in essence but the human birth of jean no matter how significant to the universe will always have to be their and jean will never BE pheonix.

Illiterate nonsense. You really should read through your posts prior to posting.

As per usual you've contradicted yourself within a single post. 🙄 😮

People know the deal, more specifically they know by now to bypass any and all of your ridiculous posts. 😂

Originally posted by leonheartmm
n yea franklin is currently supressing his power aided by a new psi dampner by reed richards, franklin got full control of his potential back after apparently losin his power cause of galactus's resurrection but that was revealed to be not enough to deplete his power, but reed got afraid of franklin's awesome power again{specially after eternity showed a personal interest in him} and tried n helped frank fight it off. anyway its been a while since i read much on the subject, must be months.

Dont think to educate me on any marvel related subject when you can barely construct coherent sentences.

You take this whole debating thing way too personal Leon. Going on an anti-phoenix rant and ignoring on panel events because of a few forum disputes is just juvenile. 🙄

gs, ur full of crap{yea im sure i can expect a smartass reply from u, but the sad fact is, those arent interestin enough for me or any1 to read anymore, oh well , chalk it up to bad luck}

Common guys no need to fight.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
gs, ur full of crap{yea im sure i can expect a smartass reply from u, but the sad fact is, those arent interestin enough for me or any1 to read anymore, oh well , chalk it up to bad luck}

Originally posted by Creshosk
So yuo intend to debate with someone without reading what they wrote? 🤨

um, please LOOK at what he wrote, it doesnt have any thing tellin me logically that im wrong, all he said was

"Illiterate nonsense. You really should read through your posts prior to posting.

As per usual you've contradicted yourself within a single post.

People know the deal, more specifically they know by now to bypass any and all of your ridiculous posts."

and some other crap in the other thread, and he has continued this for a long time, would YOU debate with a guy like that? as i said, hes hopeless.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
um, please LOOK at what he wrote, it doesnt have any thing tellin me logically that im wrong, all he said was

"Illiterate nonsense. You really should read through your posts prior to posting.

As per usual you've contradicted yourself within a single post.

People know the deal, more specifically they know by now to bypass any and all of your ridiculous posts."

and some other crap in the other thread, and he has continued this for a long time, would YOU debate with a guy like that? as i said, hes hopeless.

I didnt need to do anything but ridicule your post because anyone can see from reading the thread that youre queries have been answered a long time ago. I will not repeat myself. 🙄

they were never answered gs u n i both know that