Scarlet Witch (current) vs. Phoenix Force Jean

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again a case of misunderstanding on your part KG. From this i doubt you've read House of M. 😉

Wanda changed the 616 reality however the abuse of her abilities ripped a hole in reality causing a chaos wave to spill through into Otherworld and potentially other realities. The chaos wave was a result of Wandas amateur tamperings as was the rupture in reality. All of the destruction wasnt Wandas power but the result of her amateur application of it. She basically lit a fuse.

With all of that aside Wanda is very powerful and can bend reality to her will however Franklin Richards created an entire pocket reality of his own. Thats beyond Wanda warping the 616 reality to her will.

Wanda unwittingly set off a chain reaction which could potentially end the multiverse. She could do it intentionally as well, but its not her power

so all wanda did was cause a rip that's it? hmmmmmmm

Originally posted by demigawd
One glaring thing I'll point out, though - everything in your scans refers to "universe", not multiverse, not omniverse.

As for the chaos wave not being Wanda's power. Whose power is it to affect causality and alter reality again? Oh, Wanda's. A wave of power bursting through the walls of 616 affecting causality and altering reality...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I noticed that too - I don't recall ever seen Jean Grey affect anything beyond 616. And isn't that male Phoenix from a What if anyway. Besides for all intents and purposes if Jean is Phoenix then Wanda has unmade the Phoenix - or Jean isn't the Phoenix after all. Take your pick.

As for the chaos wave not being Wanda's power. Whose power is it to affect causality and alter reality again? Oh, Wanda's. A wave of power bursting through the walls of 616 affecting causality and altering reality...

Because creation = one Universe (at least for most of the time they refer to creation any time they show Phoenix)

Yet for Wanda creation = all universes...

Now there's a great big fat double standard for you right there.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wanda's influence had clearly extended to Otherworld willingly if it lifted several Otherworld characters (like Brian and Meggan) and suddenly placed them in 616 in positions of power in England, even restoring Brian's Captain Britain title from Kelsey Leigh - OVERRIDING Roma's power in the process. If that's not multiversal reach, I don't know what is.

Damn you! Do you have any idea how much I hate having to take GS's side about...ANYTHING?!? I can't believe At any rate, Wanda didn't pull Captain Britain into the 616 reality, he went there of his own accord to fix the problem. As soon as he entered the reformatted reality, he was assumilated into it. The same thing for his sister Betsy and Rachel.

Now, this would normally lead us to conclude that it was an on-going effect. But later on we see the Exiles enter the 616 reality unharmed by the changes. This would lead us to believe that Brian, Betsy, and the others entered the reality as the changes were still in progress.

It could be argue that the changes only effected indigenous 616 items, but we know this is untrue for two reasons. One, Nocturne was effected by the change. Two, Beak wasn't effected by the change.

As for why the LT, Phoenix, and the other "powers" took no actions against what Wanda had done, from their perspective, they didn't notice the changes. To them it seemed as though nothing had changed, and things were as they had always been and were supposed to be. Why? Because they were caught in the effect too. Everyone that was present in the 616 reality at the time was effected. From Eternity on down.

As for LT and Phoenix possibly not being there when it happened, they would've noticed the changes almost immediately and gone to investigate. Arriving so soon, they would've been caught in the changes as they were happening.

This isn't to say that Wanda is more powerful than LT or Phoenix any more than I'm saying that I'm stronger than Mike Tyson. If I run up and blindside Tyson, he'll go down. If me and Tyson are in a ring together and we fight, I'm a dead man.

Originally posted by demigawd
One glaring thing I'll point out, though - everything in your scans refers to "universe", not multiverse, not omniverse. It's already been shown that there's one Eternity for each reality - I'm afraid you still haven't proven multiversal change that she's enacted. 🙁

Good try, though.

Keep the faith! 🤘

Stay Demi! 🤘

If you'd read my reply posts you would have seen that not all of those scans were related to the the multiverse question you posed. One set was related to phoenixes ability to close a hole punched through reality.

One was a scene from New Xmen. Jean here is beyond creation and holds a universe in her hand and reshapes its reality and its time line on a whim. To her universe are spheres of energy, nothing to her in the grand scheme of things. She only bothered to save it because she was from that reality originally. She had a connection to it. But as a transcended one as a phoenix she was now beyond creation the fate of a universe of a hundred universes is nothing as long as the creation cycle isnt impeded. Hence the reason why Quentin said he wouldnt bother he'd just let 616 die. That is multiversal power. She exists beyond creation and can apply her power to all of creation.

Wanda from within creation ripped a hole through the barrier seperating 616 from Otherworld and her power seeped through. See the difference? She and her power at the most is universal in terms of range. True multiversal power is to have power that transcends the borders imposed by one reality. To be able to exist beyond the multiverse and apply your power to it. Both LT and Phoenix can do this Wanda cannot. Or at least hasnt been shown to be able to do so.

Many beings have been able to rip through dimensional barriers and apply their power to alternate dimensions. Thanos has done it when imprisoned as have Dormammu and Nightmare even Trion Juggernaut. Do they have multiversal power? Certainly not. (I think people are getting a little confused here.) They like Wanda are still restricted by reality. Wanda cannot surpass creation and hold a universe in her hand.

Wanda cannot apply her power throughout the multiverse without opening a breach into other realities. Phoenix projected the tower that would become Excalibur's lighthouse through the multiverse to serve as a lynchpin for Merlin's cosmic energy matrix. That is multiversal power. Many cosmics can open a breach into other dimensions to apply their power but few can transcend the barriers of reality like Phoenix can.

The other pic from Endsong show 616 Jean talking about what she did in the Here Comes Tomorrow reality showing the shared knowledge you asked for and proving Phoenix is multiversal.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I noticed that too - I don't recall ever seen Jean Grey affect anything beyond 616. And isn't that male Phoenix from a What if anyway. Besides for all intents and purposes if Jean is Phoenix then Wanda has unmade the Phoenix - or Jean isn't the Phoenix after all. Take your pick.

As for the chaos wave not being Wanda's power. Whose power is it to affect causality and alter reality again? Oh, Wanda's. A wave of power bursting through the walls of 616 affecting causality and altering reality...

That male phoenix is Giraud he is a host from Guardians of the Galaxy an alternate reality. However its continuity that Phoenix exists in and derives from the Crown which is beyond creation and time /space constrictions. He would be a part of the Phoenix corps.

Thats whats bugging me. Why do you keep saying that line. Explain to me, spell it out to me why you keep saying :

"if Jean is Phoenix then Wanda has unmade the Phoenix - or Jean isn't the Phoenix after all"

Wandas crude application of her reality warping powers has caused a breach and a spill over of the forces Wanda has unleashed is rushing though Otherworld and potentially other realities in a chaos wave. Its kind of like Storms hyperstorms in uncanny. She was the origin point for the storms but they ended up being something far beyond her. Just like Storm has no control over the effects of the hyperstorms Wanda has no control over the chaos wave. Her amateur manipulation of reality just set it off. In the end theres nothing to say Wanda wouldnt get taken down by the collapse of realities as well.

like I said right now SW is the Parallax of marvel. and parallax is no match for PF

You've spent an eternity trying to convince everyone that there is only one Phoenix and 616 Jean Grey is that Phoenix. 616 Jean Grey no longer exists as she did, if at all. She never became an X-Woman - there were no X-Men in HoM. She never went into space. She never encountered the Phoenix force. The history and core reality of 616 has been changed. So either Jean Grey isn't equivalent to Phoenix and Jean Grey is unnecessary to the Phoenix i.e. Jean does not equal Phoenix. Or Jean does equal Phoenix, and if Jean was unmade the Phoenix was also unmade.

In New X-Men Jean didn't reshape an entire reality of her power. She altered a single event in a timeline. She had to die and go to the future to take action.

Oh and the whole one Phoenix in all the multiverse thing? Eternity is the embodiment of a universe. There are different Galacti in different realities. And there are multiple Jean Greys and multiple Phoenix Forces. On the Exiles second mission they encounter in an alternate reality a Jean Grey that evolves into Dark Phoenix. Explain that.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You've spent an eternity trying to convince everyone that there is only one Phoenix and 616 Jean Grey is that Phoenix. 616 Jean Grey no longer exists as she did, if at all. She never became an X-Woman - there were no X-Men in HoM. She never went into space. She never encountered the Phoenix force. The history and core reality of 616 has been changed. So either Jean Grey isn't equivalent to Phoenix and Jean Grey is unnecessary to the Phoenix i.e. Jean does not equal Phoenix. Or Jean does equal Phoenix, and if Jean was unmade the Phoenix was also unmade.

There is only one Phoenix in creation. Jean Grey is the closest thing Phoenix has to a human form. Phoenix manifests throughout creation as its hosts/ avatars (similar to the abstracts M bodies) to carry out its "phoenix work" throughout the multiverse yet in the white hot room there is only one Jean Grey. You dont know the history of the new House of M reality you have no knowledge of how its going to turn out so who are you to say these things? Wait till after house of m 8 before you start throwing around assumptions and speculation.

If you read the phoenix Vs Women thread you'll see that Jean not being a part of the X-men, jean not being on the space shuttle is irrelevant because she is phoenix. (Please note that AOA was written during the retcon period.) I wouldnt be surprised if Jean doesnt show up for a long time in this new reality because she'll still be in the white hot room which wasnt affected by Wandas actions.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
In New X-Men Jean didn't reshape an entire reality of her power. She altered a single event in a timeline. She had to die and go to the future to take action.

Incorrect. Jean amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future which basically killed the 616 reality. She left it without a future. This was a tragic consequence of her phoenix work and just came along with the job hence quentins comments about how he'd just let it die, it was of no big consequence to a phoenix that a universe died in order to prevent a potential multiversal threat. An end to the creation cycle which Sublime would have brought about. Jean however was sentimental and she resructured the 616 reality after having killed it hence the phoenix consciousness comments on Jeans telekinetic control of all of those atoms. With 616 reformed she grew it a new future by altering events within to ensure the growth of a new future hence her "Live Scott. Live" comment.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Oh and the whole one Phoenix in all the multiverse thing? Eternity is the embodiment of a universe. There are different Galacti in different realities. And there are multiple Jean Greys and multiple Phoenix Forces. On the Exiles second mission they encounter in an alternate reality a Jean Grey that evolves into Dark Phoenix. Explain that.

I'll just end your argument by highlighting how that was written before the Here Comes tomorrow story arc and waaaaaaay before Endsong. No explanation necessary.

If you actually read my long post you'd see that Jean in Endsong was referring to the events of the Here comes tomorrow story arc. Phoenix is indeed multiversal. Sorry to spoil your high hopes for Wanda. 😉

So again after all of that effort Scarlet Witch doesnt make the cut and Magneto Prime didnt quite make the transition from the realms of the mind to a Marvel comic book. Awwwwww LOL 😱 😂

I was just reading House of M 7. Demi how are you gonna try and hype up Wanda to me when the b*tch cant control her powers and even with the help of Xavier and Pietro the ho still f*cked up. 🙄 😮

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There is only one Phoenix in creation. Jean Grey is the closest thing Phoenix has to a human form. Phoenix manifests throughout creation as its hosts/ avatars (similar to the abstracts M bodies) to carry out its "phoenix work" throughout the multiverse yet in the white hot room there is only one Jean Grey. You dont know the history of the new House of M reality you have no knowledge of how its going to turn out so who are you to say these things? Wait till after house of m 8 before you start throwing around assumptions and speculation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you read the phoenix Vs Women thread you'll see that Jean not being a part of the X-men, jean not being on the space shuttle is irrelevant because she is phoenix. (Please note that AOA was written during the retcon period.) I wouldnt be surprised if Jean doesnt show up for a long time in this new reality because she'll still be in the white hot room which wasnt affected by Wandas actions.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect. Jean amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future which basically killed the 616 reality. She left it without a future. This was a tragic consequence of her phoenix work and just came along with the job hence quentins comments about how he'd just let it die, it was of no big consequence to a phoenix that a universe died in order to prevent a potential multiversal threat. An end to the creation cycle which Sublime would have brought about. Jean however was sentimental and she resructured the 616 reality after having killed it hence the phoenix consciousness comments on Jeans telekinetic control of all of those atoms. With 616 reformed she grew it a new future by altering events within to ensure the growth of a new future hence her "Live Scott. Live" comment.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'll just end your argument by highlighting how that was written before the Here Comes tomorrow story arc and waaaaaaay before Endsong. No explanation necessary.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you actually read my long post you'd see that Jean in Endsong was referring to the events of the Here comes tomorrow story arc. Phoenix is indeed multiversal. Sorry to spoil your high hopes for Wanda. 😉

Care to explain this?
If Jean = Phoenix. So if you eliminate Jean you eliminate Phoenix. In which case Phoenix isn't as powerful as one might imagine.
If Phoenix > LT. In which case elimination of Jean would do nothing to the actual Phoenix, considering the necessity of a being if it is higher than the LT, but Jean is completely unnecessary to the Phoenix, which can exist and perform it's functions regardless of Jean Grey's existence. In which case Jean does not = Phoenix.
It appears the two are mutually exclusive. Now doesn't it?

pheonix loses

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm not throwing around the assumptions that there were never any X-Men, it is stated. Thus the feats the X-Men performed never occurred.

Which is irrelevant when you know that Jean was always Phoenix she just never knew it.

Follow this link and i'll hear no more on the issue:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f49/t368313.html

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And if Jean is erased altogether? She's still Phoenix?
The only people shown in the White Hot Room were Psylocke, Rachel Summers and Jamie Braddock who pulled them into and out of it.
Kind of throws a spanner in the entire Jean = Phoenix and Phoenix > LT thing doesn't it?

Spanner in the works? Puh - lease dont be silly I know you're not this naive X lol. The white hot room wasnt affected by Wandas machinations. Nova said the chaos wave could potentially reach the ascension ( which really isnt conclusively the white hot room anyway) and fortunately this potential was not realised as the destruction unleashed was halted by the heroes. Your logic is absurd. So despite the wave not affecting the white hot room you're saying that because you never saw Jean on the few pages that Rachel and Psylocke were in the White hot room that means Phoenix has been wiped out? What a totally unfounded stretch. LOL. So when we see Spiderman swinging through new york if we dont see any members of the avengers or F4 i guess all these years theyve been lying about living there?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Jean = Phoenix. So if you eliminate Jean you eliminate Phoenix. In which case Phoenix isn't as powerful as one might imagine.
Phoenix > LT. In which case elimination of Jean would do nothing to the actual Phoenix, considering the necessity of a being if it is higher than the LT, but Jean is completely unnecessary to the Phoenix, which can perform exist and perform it's functions regardless of Jean Grey's existence. In which case Jean does not = Phoenix.

Not the case because as we saw with Endsong Jean is in the white hot room reforming all of her shards. The white hot room was left completely unaffected by house of m.

Jean is just the physical shell that Phoenix manifests into creation as when its particular brand of work is required. If you kill Jean the Phoenix consciousness is released and it will reside in the white hot room until it is required again.

The fact that Endsong was officially stated to be the last phoenix story for a long time should tell you something and at least make you stop and think before throwing around these unresearched statements.

Before you post any vaguely Phoenix related stuff again please visit the previously mentioned link. It will save everyone a lot of time and trouble.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Irregardless. She's still yet to display any effect beyond brane 616.Events in alternate realities completely distinct from 616 are retconned by events in 616? This being moot since the events in Here Comes Tomorrow and Endsong do nothing to retcon the existence of multiple Phoenix Forces in multiple realities.
I have no vested interest in the Scarlet Witch being more powerful than Phoenix. But I'm sure the threat posed to the position of Phoenix you're so enamoured with is troubling.

"Irregardless?" Why because you say it is? Really not good enough. Threat? You'd actually have to have some valid points and on panel backing for Wanda to be deemed a threat. As thats far from the case let the education continue.......

Jean was shown to be beyond the restrictions imposed by reality and she held a universe in her hand and shaped it to her will, and telekinetically snipped away at its timeline like scisssors with paper and with not nearly as much effort. Regardless of what you say being beyond the restrictions imposed by one reality/universe, being able to hold a universe in the palm of your hand and completely reshape it to your will is multiversal power. Plus theres the fact that Phoenix applied her power throughout the entire multiverse projecting a doorway through it a lynchpin for Merlyns cosmic matrix.

As for that multiple phoenix force retcon New X-men established the idea that hosts from all over creation were genetically phoenixes it was a part of their mutation to transcend reality and become one with this phoenix power. Hence the phoenix corps who survey the multiverse from the white hot room. That in itself tells you that there is one power source with many many hosts/avatars across creation, that was the scene depicted in New Xmen 154.

In Excalibur 64 it was revealed that the true form of Phoenix was the golden woman/Jean Grey. When Rachel asked to speak to Phoenix in its true form thats what it appeared as. Rachel wielded a shard of Jeans Phoenix self.

When the golden woman appearred to Jean on the space shuttle it said:

“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”

Again supporting that they are indeed one and the same. The golden woman defends its existence as a form derived form Jean.

In New X-men this golden woman who people thought to be a seperate entity was the form Jean was reborn as. That was an effort on the writers half to confirm that they are indeed one.

Endsong clarified the phoenix situation by stating that Jean and phoenix are one she is the closest thing it has to a physical form which is why she is white phoenix of crown. The other phoenixes wield merely shards of Jeans phoenix self. The significance of white being it symbolises her relationship with Phoenix it is an absence of colour or more specifically a convergence of the multiple colours, green, red etc.

There is one phoenix force there are many hosts across creation that tap into this power, that reach this stage of final mutation. Jean Grey is just a shell a form Phoenix manifests into creation as.Endsong showed you multiple Jean Grey Phoenixes however in the white hot room which surveys the entire multiverse as shown in 154 there is one Jean Grey Phoenix.

As clearly stated in Uncanny Wanda manipulated the 616 reality however her efforts disrupted reality causing a chaos wave to erupt from earth smashing through the 616 brane to Otherworld:

Im sorry to inform you but thats not multiversal power. The chaos wave is not even her power. Even if Wanda intentionally opened a breach and poured her power into Otherworld thats still not multiversal mate. Thanos has done that so has Dormammu and Nightmare. Thats standard cosmic fare.

When Wanda can apply her power to the entire multiverse as phoenix has done, when she can transcend the boundaries of reality and shape universes in the palm of her hand then your ideas will be entertained.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Care to explain this?
If Jean = Phoenix. So if you eliminate Jean you eliminate Phoenix. In which case Phoenix isn't as powerful as one might imagine.
If Phoenix > LT. In which case elimination of Jean would do nothing to the actual Phoenix, considering the necessity of a being if it is higher than the LT, but Jean is completely unnecessary to the Phoenix, which can exist and perform it's functions regardless of Jean Grey's existence. In which case Jean does not = Phoenix.
It appears the two are mutually exclusive. Now doesn't it?

Explain what? Theres nothing here that hasnt been countered before you'll find answers in this post even.

I'll not waste my time going over the same things again. As long as Phoenix exists creation exists. It is the power that sustains creation and the power that is creations natural end.

Wanda didnt stand a chance.🙁

And Magneto Primes still dead!!!! 😱 😂

Originally posted by leonheartmm
pheonix loses

Grow up Leon. You've made it so appparent to the board that this is all personal to you. Your anti phoenix stance is just the result of the thrashings ive inflicted upon you across multiple forums. 🙄 😮

GS, I'm over Wanda and I never gave a crap about Magneto Prime. I'm asking you to explain the apparent mutual exclusivity of the two assertions Jean = Phoenix and Phoenix > LT.

If I go back in time and kill 616 John and Elaine Grey, 616 Jean Grey is never created. If from the present I remake the core reality and history of 616 in which John and Elaine Grey never existed in the first place Jean Grey is never created.

In the event of that occurring I'd like you to explain the incongruity:
If Jean = Phoenix. If you eliminate Jean you eliminate Phoenix. In which case Phoenix isn't as powerful as one might imagine.
If Phoenix > LT. In which case elimination of Jean would do nothing to the actual Phoenix, considering the necessity of a being if it is higher than the LT, but that would make Jean completely unnecessary to the Phoenix, which would exist and perform it's functions regardless of Jean Grey's existence. In which case Jean does not = Phoenix.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
GS, I'm over Wanda and I never gave a crap about Magneto Prime. I'm asking you to explain the apparent mutual exclusivity of the two assertions Jean = Phoenix and Phoenix > LT.

This thread was created by Demi because of the tragic demise of Magneto Prime. That was directed at him. So calm down no need to get so stressed over a comic book debate lol

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If I go back in time and kill 616 John and Elaine Grey, 616 Jean Grey is never created. If from the present I remake the core reality and history of 616 in which John and Elaine Grey never existed in the first place Jean Grey is never created.

In the event of that occurring I'd like you to explain:
If Jean = Phoenix. If you eliminate Jean you eliminate Phoenix. In which case Phoenix isn't as powerful as one might imagine.
If Phoenix > LT. In which case elimination of Jean would do nothing to the actual Phoenix, considering the necessity of a being if it is higher than the LT, but that would make Jean completely unnecessary to the Phoenix, which would exist and perform it's functions regardless of Jean Grey's existence. In which case Jean does not = Phoenix.

Ohhh i see. Because ive torn apart your dreams for Wandas ascendence you're not gonna quit until you get something over me in this debate right? 😉

No such luck mate.🙁 😛

Jean is just the shell with which Phoenix manifests into creation. You get rid of the shell then you still have the Jean Grey Phoenix. Its the Kaballah idea that our archetypal forms are in the white hot room, life is a school we're all in the afterlife waiting for ourselves to arrive. This idea was the basis behind the golden woman on the space shuttle and explains how it could be Jeans Phoenix self appearing to her and talking to her before she was even officially Phoenix.

This idea was explored further in New X-men which adopted all of Chris C's ideas. Phoenix says in New X-men 128 that Jean is just the house where she lives. Just a shell nothing more.

When Phoenix exterminates the Termids she says to bumbleboy,the x-men ambassador,that he’s going to experience “total absorption in the White Hot Room”.He (reduced to a skull kept alive by Phoenix) says that it’s not too bad,it’s like he has done it before or he’s doing it again, or...she replies:”shh.You were always there,waiting for yourself to arrive”.

There not being a Jean Grey shell means nothing. The White Phoenix of Crown is beyond all!!!!!!! 😱

Good effort all around guys 🙂

Jean Greys form being just a shell explains why she needs death to be reborn as Phoenix. Being born into creation from the phoenix egg goes some way into making her forget her true self. (Look how confused she was when she exited the egg in the Here Comes Tomorrow arc) With Death comes absorption into the white hot room, by destroying Jeans shell her phoenix consciousness is released and she remembers. For reference check back to New X-men 149 (the last panels) and 150. When Logan and Jean were about to collide with the sun Logan euthanized Jean by stabbing her in the heart lol. Next panel her eyes light up, next issue she claims Logans released the phoenix consciousness and she appears in her phoenix costume.