Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Answer my phoenix questions boy!!!
no boy -
Well OK - Phoenix does not really fit Marvel continuity very well - that can be said of a lot of recent mutant ideas books, probably part of the reason Joe Q is anti X to a degree. Phoenix role is actually self defeating because if everything is predestined why have a phoenix at all. Hence my problem with your jgg explanation.
If its all predestined why have any characters apart from the abstracts - the abstracts serve the same purpose as the endless.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
no boy -Well OK - Phoenix does not really fit Marvel continuity very well - that can be said of a lot of recent mutant ideas books, probably part of the reason Joe Q is anti X to a degree. Phoenix role is actually self defeating because if everything is predestined why have a phoenix at all. Hence my problem with your jgg explanation.
If its all predestined why have any characters apart from the abstracts - the abstracts serve the same purpose as the endless.
I know it doesnt fit in perfectly with all the retcons that have been going on but botched execution and dislikes aside what do you think its role is and why?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know it doesnt fit in perfectly with all the retcons that have been going on but botched execution and dislikes aside what do you think its role is and why?
I think its role is the same as any other character in a story to allow that particular story to be told. It is as powerful as that story needs it to be. Noithing more, nothing less. Same for any character in any "ongoing comic universe", it will never be consistant which is why hierarchs do not work well. If next weekl a writer says Jean gets punked by the ring master, Phoenix loses to the ring master - the role is only for that story - or that section of continuity.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I think its role is the same as any other character in a story to allow that particular story to be told. It is as powerful as that story needs it to be. Noithing more, nothing less. Same for any character in any "ongoing comic universe", it will never be consistant which is why hierarchs do not work well. If next weekl a writer says Jean gets punked by the ring master, Phoenix loses to the ring master - the role is only for that story - or that section of continuity.
But you could say that about any character 😕
Ok:
From what I've gathered from this thread, and all arguments posed, I think that Scarlet Witch's powers, by nature, put her in a category on her own as far as mutants go. She can alter probability and reality at will, she's just not fully in control of these abilities. If you think of the possible implications such a power could produce (much like Magneto), if used properly, she could probably stalemate if not defeat Jean/Phoenix. She's just not proficient enough in the use of her abilities to do so. It's not so much a matter of lack of power, so much as lack of ability (like Molecule Man).
Sorry GS, but logic is on demi's side in this one.
Your argument about Scarlet Witch simply causing a chain reaction that broke down the binds of reality is rather moot given that that is in actuality Wanda's power:
She controls causality.
She, through sheer will (but for now, with lack of skill), can cause the most unlikely of events possible to become reality.
She's a walking retcon.
She, "by accident", caused the probability that is the HoM 616 reality to become the norm, and "by accident", disrupted the structure of all reality in Marvel. In effect, what she did was subconciously choose which frequency of the Marvel U spectrum (which was originated by Phoenix) became reality through her own will. She can effectively override Phoenix's works to her own ends, at will. Phoenix is the substance, Wanda can simply consciously or subconciously manipulate the sum.
I'm really starting to dislike Marvel. What the **** are they thinking?
I don't think this places Wanda above Jean overall, just like I don't place Nightcrawler above Hulk even though Kurt can decapitate and dismember Banner in less than 10 seconds if he so desired. It just means that from a tactical standpoint, Wanda has a very alarming ace in the hole that Marvel writers have seemingly taken far too much liberty with as of late.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Ok:From what I've gathered from this thread, and all arguments posed, I think that Scarlet Witch's powers, by nature, put her in a category on her own as far as mutants go. She can alter probability and reality at will, she's just not fully in control of these abilities. If you think of the possible implications such a power could produce (much like Magneto), if used properly, she could probably stalemate if not defeat Jean/Phoenix. She's just not proficient enough in the use of her abilities to do so. It's not so much a matter of lack of power, so much as lack of ability (like Molecule Man).
Sorry GS, but logic is on demi's side in this one.
Your argument about Scarlet Witch simply causing a chain reaction that broke down the binds of reality is rather moot given that that is in actuality Wanda's power:
She controls causality.
She, through sheer will (but for now, with lack of skill), can cause the most unlikely of events possible to become reality.
She's a walking retcon.
She, "by accident", caused the probability that is the HoM 616 reality to become the norm, and "by accident", disrupted the structure of all reality in Marvel. In effect, what she did was subconciously choose which frequency of the Marvel U spectrum (which was originated by Phoenix) became reality through her own will. She can effectively override Phoenix's works to her own ends, at will. Phoenix is the substance, Wanda can simply consciously or subconciously manipulate the sum.
I'm really starting to dislike Marvel. What the **** are they thinking?
I don't think this places Wanda above Jean overall, just like I don't place Nightcrawler above Hulk even though Kurt can decapitate and dismember Banner in less than 10 seconds if he so desired. It just means that from a tactical standpoint, Wanda has a very alarming ace in the hole that Marvel writers have seemingly taken far too much liberty with as of late.
"Walking retconn" classic line
pretty much a perfect post 🙂
Originally posted by illadelph12
Ok:From what I've gathered from this thread, and all arguments posed, I think that Scarlet Witch's powers, by nature, put her in a category on her own as far as mutants go. She can alter probability and reality at will, she's just not fully in control of these abilities. If you think of the possible implications such a power could produce (much like Magneto), if used properly, she could probably stalemate if not defeat Jean/Phoenix. She's just not proficient enough in the use of her abilities to do so. It's not so much a matter of lack of power, so much as lack of ability (like Molecule Man).
Originally posted by illadelph12
Your argument about Scarlet Witch simply causing a chain reaction that broke down the binds of reality is rather moot given that that is in actuality Wanda's power:She controls causality.
Somewhere down the line you seem to have misunderstood/misinterpreted my posts or (no offence) you havent read the relevant comic/s. Wanda warped the 616 reality to the house of M reality. In doing so she unwittingly unleashed a chaos wave (resultant from her amateur tamperings) which breached the brane between 616 and Otherworld funneled through. Her feat here was the warping of 616 reality. The chaos wave was an after effect. Its kind of like when Shaman from Alpha Flight mystically created a hurricane to force the X-mens jet to Canada. Having little experience with the weather not knowing its intricacies he shunted it here, there and everywhere thinking he had everything under control he went about his team business. As a result of his tamperings this hurricane developed into a massive storm and caused havok across Canada and put many lives at risk. Potentially it was stated this storm could take half a year to blow out and by then the destruction it would've caused would have been monumental. It became something beyond him, it was the after effects of his manipulations and the result had spun out of control:
Originally posted by illadelph12
She, through sheer will (but for now, with lack of skill), can cause the most unlikely of events possible to become reality.She's a walking retcon.
Agreed.
Originally posted by illadelph12
She, "by accident", caused the probability that is the HoM 616 reality to become the norm,
Not true it was very much a conscious effort
Originally posted by illadelph12
and "by accident", disrupted the structure of all reality in Marvel.
Sort of. If by Marvel you mean 616 then agreed. If you mean creation entire then untrue. The chaos wave was a result of the forces of reality being shunted around and warped by Wanda. It was the consequences of her so casually ignoring the laws of causality. This "cancer" threatened to sweep through creation and collapse it all. That was its potential however that wasnt realised thanks to Cb and Meggan. Otherwise Roma would have just destroyed 616 therefore ridding creation of its "diseased" fragment. Applying her power to 616 was like introducing cancer affected matter into the body of creation. This affliction then ran rampant and threatened to affect all of creation. To destroy it, not warp its reality therefore the chaos wave was not Wandas power but the result of its application.
Originally posted by illadelph12
In effect, what she did was subconciously choose which frequency of the Marvel U spectrum (which was originated by Phoenix) became reality through her own will. She can effectively override Phoenix's works to her own ends, at will. Phoenix is the substance, Wanda can simply consciously or subconciously manipulate the sum.
Not true at all. Wanda intended to replace 616 reality with her own. If you'd read house of m you'd know she was talked into by Pietro. So with the aid of him and Xavier whom she used to find out everyones innermost desires and ambitions she made them true. She warped reality.
Given that beings such as LT and Phoenix are beyond the restrictions imposed by any single reality Wanda would be no match for them. Her powers to warp reality would be useless against those who are beyond it, those who transcend it. Wandas power it seems is akin to someone possessing the reality gem. Total control over reality on a universal scale. Enormously powerful but its absurd to compare her to multiversal forces. Jamie Braddock another extremely powerful reality warper was able to nullify its effects on his person
Anyone who can destroy 616 universe is going to be undoing Phoenixs work but that certainly doesnt place them on a level pegging. Big deal. As long as the creation cycle and evolution are'nt halted then the life of a single universe is nothing to a Phoenix. Readers need only refer to New Xmen 154. Ive talked about that matter previously.
Yeah Wanda warped 616, young Franklin created his own pocket universe, at adulthood he is said to be able to reach Celestial level. Where does that place Wanda?
Warping the 616 reality was Wandas feat. After its death Phoenix reformed 616 in the palm of her hand before growing it a new timeline, thus giving it life. No comparison.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm really starting to dislike Marvel. What the **** are they thinking?
Im actually anticipating the changes they have in store for us. I havent liked the execution of house of m but i am looking forward to the consequences of it. Marvel needed a shake up. It did DC a whole lotta good 20 years ago.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't think this places Wanda above Jean overall, just like I don't place Nightcrawler above Hulk even though Kurt can decapitate and dismember Banner in less than 10 seconds if he so desired. It just means that from a tactical standpoint, Wanda has a very alarming ace in the hole that Marvel writers have seemingly taken far too much liberty with as of late.
I wouldnt even go as far as saying its an ace in the hole. Seriously. The whole point of this thread was for Demi to get his own back for me laughing at the non-existence of his beloved Magneto Prime.
The main points for Wanda were that she created a hole in reality and that no other being in Marvel has been able to do this. That point was put down because many beings have been able to do so as i showed and it certainly doesnt make them beyond the M'kraan crystal which is a laughable notion
The second point was that no beings could seal these holes Wanda could punch in reality. Not Phoenix or LT. A half hearted attempt at a point was posted saying that Phoenix couldnt fix the reality breaches herself and required the M'kraan crystal to fix things. Given that the crystal was the source of the problems i pointed out that it was common sense to fix the source as opposed to dealing with the after effects whilst leaving the crystal free to continue causing damage. Great point Demi LOL. I then pointed out that the M'kraan crystal malfunctioning made all the doors in all realities swing open as opposed to the single breach Wanda caused in 616. Therefore sealing this one breach aint nothing to phoenix. Hilariously the breach got temporarily sealed by the Blob and then Meggan and Captain Britain finished the job. Is it any wonder why LT and Phoenix didnt get involved LOL
That was basically all the points for Wanda against Phoenix and they got dealt with.