Defibrillation doesn't restart the heart from asystole, it corrects cardiac arrhythmia. If the Hulk's heart had completely ceased in function defibrillation is completely pointless. He was undergoing asystole because his neuronal function had undergone temporary shut-down. Cable restored neuronal function by freeing Banner's trapped mind. Whether or not Storm's lightning bolt to the heart actually did anything is contestable.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Defibrillation doesn't restart the heart from asystole, it corrects cardiac arrhythmia. If the Hulk's heart had completely ceased in function defibrillation is completely pointless. He was undergoing asystole because his neuronal function had undergone temporary shut-down. Cable restored neuronal function by freeing Banner's trapped mind. Whether or not Storm's lightning bolt to the heart actually did anything is contestable.
So if Cable or Storm hadnt intervened then Hulk would have died right?
No, under my speculatory model, if and when his healing factor managed to relieve the refractory period in the vagus nerve, and the rest of the brain, by restoring function to the sodium potassium pumps, this would restore pacemaker function to the heart. Cable's intervention would be necessary, Storm's would not.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No, under my speculatory model, if and when his healing factor managed to relieve the refractory period in the vagus nerve, and the rest of the brain, by restoring function to the sodium potassium pumps, this would restore pacemaker function to the heart.
Cool. Thats what i was after. So no hulk wouldnt have healed from that attack. Thanks X 🙂
🤨 "No." Meant that he wouldn't have died without Storm's intervention. I said he would have likely healed from it. Darkcrawler already posted a scan where Hulk healed his brainstem. His body would have still been alive without Cable's intervention. If all that's necessary to "anchor the psyche" is a functional body then Cable's intervention wouldn't be required either.
I actually have no idea why this incident is even being used considering it required both a electrical and a psionic attack. Last time I checked Storm isn't a telepath no matter how much kick she takes.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
🤨 "No." Meant that he wouldn't have died without Storm's intervention. I said he would have likely healed from it. Darkcrawler already posted a scan where Hulk healed his brainstem. His body would have still been alive without Cable's intervention.I actually have no idea why this incident is even being used considering it required both a electrical and a psionic attack. Last time I checked Storm isn't a telepath no matter how much kick she takes.
But it wasnt a physical process that virtually killed hulk it was a mental one which resulted in the breakdown of physical bodily functions. A healing factor would restore the bodily functions but he'd still be effectively brain dead.
It took a combined effort from Storm and Cable to revive him, Storm by restarting his heart or at least correcting its rhythm and Cable by anchoring his psyche to the physical plane. It was slipping hence the urgency he portrayed. Thats what happens when your bodily functions cease. Storm helped return his functions to the state they needed to be in to house his psyche while Cable handled it on the psychic front.
There wouldnt have been a sense of urgency from Cable and/or fear and regret at the fact that hulk was dying if it was only temporary. As a first order telepath im sure Cable would have been able to sense that his mind wasnt permanently lost and that the neural breakdown was temporary. The fact that he panicked suggests that hulk would died and that your model while possible isnt the most likely.
Originally posted by GalacticStormIn which case Storm cannot replicate that mental process.
But it wasnt a physical process that virtually killed hulk it was a mental one which resulted in the breakdown of physical bodily functions. A healing factor would restore the bodily functions but he'd still be effectively brain dead.
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhether or not Storm's lightning bolt to the heart did anything is contestable. If the brain had been shut-down - as had been their intention - there would have been asystole in which case defibrillation is useless.
It took a combined effort from Storm and Cable to revive him, Storm by restarting his heart or at least correcting its rhythm and Cable by anchoring his psyche to the physical plane. It was slipping hence the urgency he portrayed. Thats what happens when your bodily functions cease. Storm helped return his functions to the state they needed to be in to house his psyche while Cable handled it on the psychic front.
Originally posted by GalacticStormIf Cable sensed no brain activity, which he would if the neurons were in a refractory period, then understandably he would think that Hulk was dead. Which he did. And thus would panic. He was however mistaken as a mind was still present - trapped but present. Add to that sirens approaching.
There wouldnt have been a sense of urgency from Cable and/or fear and regret at the fact that hulk was dying if it was only temporary. As a first order telepath im sure Cable would have been able to sense that his mind wasnt permanently lost and that the neural breakdown was temporary. The fact that he panicked suggests that hulk would died and that your model while possible isnt the most likely.
My model is at least as likely than your initial idea that Hulk's nonphysical mind-body connection had been severed due to the attack and that by the physical process of restarting cardiac function this connection was somehow restored.
The body would heal and Storm has no telepathic powers. The other incidents where massive amounts of lightning were used on Hulk they only ever managed to knock him out. This is a fight to the death.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
In which case Storm cannot replicate that mental process.
Whether or not Storm's lightning bolt to the heart did anything is contestable. If the brain had been shut-down - as had been their intention - there would have been asystole in which case defibrillation is useless.
If Cable sensed no brain activity, which he would if the neurons were in a refractory period, then understandably he would think that Hulk was dead. Which he did. And thus would panic. He was however mistaken as a mind was still present - trapped but present. Add to that sirens approaching.My model is at least as likely than your initial idea that Hulk's nonphysical mind-body connection had been severed due to the attack and that by the physical process of restarting cardiac function this connection was somehow restored.
The body would heal and Storm has no telepathic powers. The other incidents where massive amounts of lightning were used on Hulk they only ever managed to knock him out. This is a fight to the death.
You seem oblivious to my intentions X. This doesnt have a lot to do with this thread. Im not proposing that Storm could repeat this trick in this battle. Reread the thread and you'll see where this talk stemmed from. The main issue we're trying to clarify here before your contribution was whether hulk could heal from being brain dead and if he could have healed fine on his own in the instance depicted in the comic.
The fact that Cable dismissed Storms suggestions to flee and that he stated that he had little time meant not that he thought hulk was conclusively dead (which he didnt as he said" I think he might be dead"😉 but that he was headed that way. Therefore supporting my idea that his mind was slipping and that Cable sought to quickly seek out Hulks psyche before its connection to his body was lost. With that done and with Cable freeing him of Onslaughts influence Storm at the same time restored his body to working order. All together reviving the hulk.
Oh, I don't doubt that character without abilities such as Mr Sinister's couldn't heal from completely physiological neuronal death - there's been a lengthy thread trying to get across that Wolverine cannot recover from decapitation. However Hulk wasn't dead as Cable first thought.
Whether or not his mind was slipping away is questionable. This is based entirely on an inference into the motives for Cable's behaviour - which really can't be determined. It's just as possible that Cable's urgency was due to him seeing a limited window of opportunity to free the Hulk from Onslaught.
However when he does enter the mind he doesn't enter to seek out the mind - as he resumes from where he was before when he entered Hulk's mind - or to reconnect any severed connections, or to prevent any links from being broken, he does so to free Hulk of Onslaught's influence. That is all that is shown - that Banner's mind was trapped by Onslaught's influence.
If the heart had suffered asystole then the lightning bolt did nothing, if it was an arrhythmia then Storm's lightning bolt defibrillated him - in which case, again considering his regenerative capabilities, he could have recovered from anyway.
Besides this massive aside that has totally derailed the thread, the real bottom line is Storm can't replicate such an incident alone.
Defibrillation doesn't work on dead people, GS. Meaning that if Hulk was dead, (and as you say, he could not return to life by himself,) Storm's lightining (unless it has proven to have a property that ressurects the dead,) wouldn't have brought him back.
Therefore, either Hulk can regenerate from the point of death, or he wasn't dead at all. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
When you're dead, your mind isn't 'slipping away;' it's gone. Dead. In order for Hulk's brain to be functioning at all, he would have to be alive.
Unless Cable has the power to ressurect the dead, or Storm has the power to ressurect the dead, Hulk wasn't dead. If he was, he would have to have returned under his own power.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Defibrillation doesn't work on dead people, GS. Meaning that if Hulk was dead, (and as you say, he could not return to life by himself,) Storm's lightining (unless it has proven to have a property that ressurects the dead,) wouldn't have brought him back.Therefore, either Hulk can regenerate from the point of death, or he wasn't dead at all. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Wasnt my point at all. By the end of my contribution i made it quite clear that Hulk was dying and without intervention from both Cable and Storm would have been very dead. The argument developed beyond the point youre referring to.
Hulks condition was a result of an attack to his brain waves which isnt something he can physically heal from. The disruption of his brain waves lead to a breakdown of his bodily functions. If it was the other way round then you'd have a point and yeah hulk would be able to heal from it. But that wasnt the case.
So your ultimatum as it were isnt valid to my interpretation which itself is equally as valid as X's which was the point we had got to at X's last post.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotYour knowledge about human physiology is quite impressive X, but how does a shut down brain affect the heart???
Whether or not Storm's lightning bolt to the heart did anything is contestable. If the brain had been shut-down - as had been their intention - there would have been asystole in which case defibrillation is useless.
The heart's function is not regulated or otherwise stimulated by the brain, but has it's own independent quasi-neural system that keeps it going...the sinus- and AV-nodi, the Purkinje-fibres etc.(hope i wrote them right in english, 'cause i know only the correct german names).
So, if Hulk's heart was "out of order", it was directly due to the lightning.
Not getting into the debate, but I believe the term is "Clinically Dead" in which a doctor will proclaim a person dead due to their bodily functions ceasing, but in some instances, the person can be revived, because there is a short period of time where the higher brain functions still operate even though the body's respiratory and cardiovascular systems have failed.
When the brain ceases function, you're completely dead, with no chance of revival.
Anyway, I'm not in the debate.
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhy are you putting stipulations on Hulk's healing factor that simply aren't there?
Wasnt my point at all. By the end of my contribution i made it quite clear that Hulk was dying and without intervention from both Cable and Storm would have been very dead. The argument developed beyond the point youre referring to.Hulks condition was a result of an attack to his brain waves which isnt something he can physically heal from. The disruption of his brain waves lead to a breakdown of his bodily functions. If it was the other way round then you'd have a point and yeah hulk would be able to heal from it. But that wasnt the case.
So your ultimatum as it were isnt valid to my interpretation which itself is equally as valid as X's which was the point we had got to at X's last post.
Hulk has healed from the point of "dying" a great many times. When the Maestro broke his neck, he was "dying." He healed, without any help from Storm.
Hulk has a knack for repairing "broken down" bodily functions.
Where in the comic does ot ever say that Hulk's brainwaves were "disrupted?" How can you assume that he cannot heal brain injuries? In fact, I have proof that he can.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Not getting into the debate, but I believe the term is "Clinically Dead" in which a doctor will proclaim a person dead due to their bodily functions ceasing, but in some instances, the person can be revived, because there is a short period of time where the higher brain functions still operate even though the body's respiratory and cardiovascular systems have failed.When the brain ceases function, you're completely dead, with no chance of revival.
Anyway, I'm not in the debate.
And this fact debunks GS's argument.
If Hulk can heal from a damaged brain stem, how is it that he can't regenerate brainwaves? If Hulk can regrow a perfectly healthy brain, how can it be that it will not function?
The only ground his argument stands on is his personal opinion.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Not getting into the debate, but I believe the term is "Clinically Dead" in which a doctor will proclaim a person dead due to their bodily functions ceasing, but in some instances, the person can be revived, because there is a short period of time where the higher brain functions still operate even though the body's respiratory and cardiovascular systems have failed.When the brain ceases function, you're completely dead, with no chance of revival.
Anyway, I'm not in the debate.
Exactly my point. As the attack disrupted his brainwaves which then lead to a breakdown of his bodily functions , i cant see how his healing factor could do anything when the problem lies more with the brain waves than the brain matter.
Hulks bodily functions had begun to shut down as a result of the disruption. There was a small window of oppurtunity for Cable to heal Hulk psionically while Storm got his heart started again hence his refysal to flee with Storm and his panicked state. Thats just my opinion.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Exactly my point. As the attack disrupted his brainwaves which then lead to a breakdown of his bodily functions , i cant see how his healing factor could do anything when the problem lies more with the brain waves than the brain matter.Hulks bodily functions had begun to shut down as a result of the disruption. There was a small window of oppurtunity for Cable to heal Hulk psionically while Storm got his heart started again hence his refysal to flee with Storm and his panicked state. Thats just my opinion.
Why wouldn't a perfectly healthy brain have perfectly healthy brainwaves, GS? 🤨
An opinion is all that it is. It isn't backed up by any facts.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Why are you putting stipulations on Hulk's healing factor that simply aren't there?Hulk has healed from the point of "dying" a great many times. When the Maestro broke his neck, he was "dying." He healed, without any help from Storm.
Hulk has a knack for repairing "broken down" bodily functions.
Where in the comic does ot ever say that Hulk's brainwaves were "disrupted?" How can you assume that he cannot heal brain injuries? In fact, I have proof that he can.
Youre referring to the physical brain. Im referring to brain activity. The disruption of his brain caused the breakdown of his bodily functions not the other way around so how would hulk rectify the situation by healing the physical matter that his healing factor is limited to? He was struck by lightning and a psi-bolt his brain waves were disrupted. The comic made a point of linking brainwaves to electricity.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre referring to the physical brain. Im referring to brain activity. The disruption of his brain caused the breakdown of his bodily functions not the other way around so how would hulk rectify the situation by healing the physical matter that his healing factor is limited to? He was struck by lightning and a psi-bolt his brain waves were disrupted. The comic made a point of linking brainwaves to electricity.
Brainwaves are electricity. That's why they can be measured with an EEG.
Can you explain why a perfectly healthy 'physical' brain wouldn't have perfectly healthy brainwaves?
Hulk has regenerated his brain in the past. And it still worked, brainwaves and all. You're placing limitations on Hulk's healing that simply aren't there.