Mormons

Originally posted by debbiejo
The Roman Catholic church ruined a lot of things, and a lot of beliefs.....Interesting though about a preexistence earth.

😉 Agreed.

The pre-existence is the idea that everything existed, was created, in a spirit form prior to existing here in a material form. And in the Mormon theology it is the belief that everything existed in that form prior to the creation. We believe that there was agency prior to existing here, and that the Devil and his followers (spirits that followed him there) became what they are by choosing to not agree with God. So by being here it means that a person followed God and Christ there and did not follow the Devil. (Names for devil are relatively interchangeable, I am referring to the Christian Satan, but who knows perhaps, from my point of view, he was the muse for the other Devil/Satan type of entities in other beliefs.)

Well there is that one scripture in the bible that said "The earth was REPLENISHED"...like there was something here before......I also believe there are negative and positive energies that people like to give names too........But all in all it is of once creative essence...One source...and people can decide which they would rather create with, or align themselves with....I believe there is much we do not know, and even the invisible is full of things also...

To align that with our beliefs, we believe in a primal matter we label the Light of Truth. It is the substance that everything is made of. Even God is in someway made of this Light of Truth. I would assume this would be similar to your source.

We then believe God organized the Light of Truth into what we term intelligences. The Intelligences were used in the creation of the Spirits. Spirits were placed in our bodies at the point of life, even we are unsure of this point, but speculation says it is at conception. Our bodies will be altered to an immortal state immediately before and during the millennium (or period after Christ's return) immediacy based on levels of obedience. Along the way some individuals get stuck from time to time, as Satan did at the state of spirit. And the progression (term we use to describe the evolution I have described) continues in steps that we haven't been told, based on our acceptance of what God has asked of us. There may be steps between each of these, but these are steps we have described in our belief. We do though, believe that at some point we will be at the point God exists at, although when we reach that point, God will have progressed to a point relative to the point we achieve, thus still being God, and thus we are unable to become a God. Thus we will never be Gods, as in relation to the point that God exists at.

That was your own view on some things?

Because some of that was a little more technical than I've ever heard.

The only portion that is my opinion is the idea that perhaps God progresses in some way. We believe in eternal progression, so it would follow that God progresses in some way beyond our understanding as well, but that is my opinion.

I did make a mistake though. Intelligences were the Light of Truth, then Organized into what we refer to as spirits. I stated it backwards.

I'll look for references and post them as I find them again. My computer has recently been having issues with my religion database programs (they are out of date, I figure the material I refer to is old, so I don't need to pay $100 to upgrade to something new to refer to the same old material), so it is a pain to find the references 😉

Read the surrounding verses for a more full explanation of what is being discussed, but the second sentence of this verse is describing Truth

D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:22-23

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits...

I cut the end off of verse 23 just because that is the point where he defines them as spirits, and demonstrates the change from intelligence to spirit.

We believe that the spirits are then placed into bodies as they have become available.

As for the end, moving from our current life to millennial/post millennial life,

D&C 88:28-32

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory(Judgement) shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they would have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.
34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

It goes on, but these verses describe how a person get stuck, basically, in the stream of progression, as well as stating that we will achieve another state of being.

There are more references, but I probably won't take the time to find all the references. I always prefer the scripture references, many of the references discussing these things are found in early speeches by Brigham Young or Joseph Smith as well as other prophets through the years. At times they speculated just as most people do, all the same sometimes their speculation was recorded and so it is necessary to check the entire document to decide if it was speculation or statement of our belief. So it is easier to stick to scripture reference.

As for the rest, maybe I'll look for it another time. Great references can be found in earlier sermons, talks, speeches and writing in the church. I would suggest the Journal of Discourses as one such source, but it has been taken out of publication due to misunderstandings and interpretations that were incorrect, as well as members focusing too heavily on things that really don't aid in achieving a better relationship with God and Christ. It is better to focus on things that help you become a better person and strengthen your relationship with God and Christ than worrying about these things overly much. It is fun to talk about though 😉

Thanks, it was the mix up of intelligences and light of truth truth that confused me. Lol. Funny how that makes it seem so different.

I've never heard it put in a more technical than spiritual way either, so that was weird.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally posted by ~dorkerina~
Thanks, it was the mix up of intelligences and light of truth truth that confused me. Lol. Funny how that makes it seem so different.

I've never heard it put in a more technical than spiritual way either, so that was weird.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I deal heavily with highly educated/technical people day in and day out, so typically it is better for me to discuss these things in that manner. I think it would be better to compare them technical vs. emotional though 😉 I do feel that technical speech is spiritual, it just is not what has been paired with religion in recent times. The Catholic church was so averse to much of science that science and religion have been separated farther than they should be. Due to this religion and science have split in to many ways, people think that they are prohibitive of the other. We believe that God follows the laws he makes for us. I do not believe that the excludes physical laws. I believe that science is just another set of laws that we have been given to live by, and so God lives by them as well, just at a much higher level of understanding.

Here is a thread as suggested by a friendly poster to discuss the claims and visions and prophesies of Joseph Smith. These will be subjected to the Bibles qualifications to qualify as a Prophet Of God or a false Prophet.

"The prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the things which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

Deuteronomy 18:20-22

Let's begin with just one for now.

Joseph Smith prophesied in 1835 that Jesus would return in 56 years.
(History of the Church Vol 2p 182)

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Joseph Smith prophesied in 1835 that Jesus would return in 56 years.
(History of the Church Vol 2p 182)

The History of the Church provides the account of the meeting held on Feb. 14, 1835. The specific reference to Joseph Smith's sermon states:

...and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.

Is should an absolute term?

Where did he get the idea that fifty-six years might bring the second coming? He said:

I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.11

Joseph Smith made this statement at a conference held at Ramus, IL, on April 2, 1843. Sometime prior to Feb. 14, 1835, he had asked the Lord when the second coming was to take place and was given an ambiguous answer. He stated apparently as his opinion that it would not be before 1891. Joseph commented on this subject at least twice more over the next several days:

I earnestly desired to know concerning the coming of the Son of Man & prayed, when a voice said to me, Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou are 85 years old thou shalt see the face of the son of man. Therefore let this suffice & trouble me no more on this matter.12

I was once praying earnestly upon the subject. and a voice said unto me. My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 years of age, thou shalt see the face of the son of man.--I was left to draw my own conclusion concerning this & I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live till that time he would make his appearance.--but I do not say whether he will make his appearance or I shall go where he is.--I prophecy in the name of the Lord God.--& let it be written. that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old 48 years hence or about 1890.13

On March 10, 1844, Smith again mentioned the second coming. This sermon was recorded by several of those who heard it. Here is some of what was recorded:

But I take the responsibility upon myself to prophesy in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come this year as Miller has prophecyed, for we have seen the bow. and I also Prophecy in the name of the Lord that Christ will not Come in forty years & if God ever spake by my mouth he will not in that length of time & Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that he would come, go & read the scriptures & you cannot find any thing that specified the exact time he would come & all who say so are fals teachers.14

The Saviour will not come this year. nor 40 yrs to come.15

--The Messiah will not come this year--upsets Millerites the Messiah will not come for 40 years and he told the people to write it a very large and attentive congregation— 16

--And that the Revelation of the Son of Man from Heaven, would not be in this year, nor the next, and he would say to his Millerite friends, that it would not be in forty years to come. He uttered all this in the name of the Lord, and said we should go home and write it— 17

From the above citations it seems clear that Joseph Smith did not prophesy that the second coming would be in fifty-six years. Rather, in 1835, based on the revelation he had received, and which is recorded as Doctrine and Covenants 130:14-17, Joseph Smith held the opinion that the second coming would be sometime within the next fifty-six years. Upon reflection, as recorded in 1843, he concluded that the second coming would not occur before 1891, but left open the actual time of Christ's return. On at least two additional occasions prior to his death in 1844, he publically explained the ambiguous nature of the revelation he had been given on the subject. These public explanations, which acknowledge the ambiguousness of the revelation, were recorded by several who heard them.

There are other Mormon threads, do we need another?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There are other Mormon threads, do we need another?

For the purpose that Justbyfaith desires I believe that a separate thread is necessary. It is only for attacks at Joseph Smith, and not at attack on doctrine or beliefs of the church.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There are other Mormon threads, do we need another?

Mormon threads are overrepresented in this forum 😠

😛

Hey that Duet 18:20-22 verse was mine..... 😠

lol

Originally posted by Alliance
Mormon threads are overrepresented in this forum 😠
😛

It's all due to the fact that everyone loves us... rolleyes1

Christians like to attack us, they can use the Bible. They can't use it in a debate against a non-Bible type person...*points real dramatically at Alliance* 😉

Plus there are 2-4 of us, Mormons, being active on the forum, so everyone can attack and get a response. group

I believe it was published...therefore considered common knowledge.

How about we point out a prophecy that Joseph Smith made that did come true. He prophecied by at least 1835 that the civil war would start. He prophecied the state it started in and what it would be about. He prophecied that the south would look to Britain for aid, which they did. Looks like by that Deut. scripture he has some credentials at least.

Joseph Smith was called a prophet
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
He started the Mormon religion
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
Many people believed Joseph
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
And that night he-ee saw an angel
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Joseph Smith was called a prophet
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

I'm sorry I couldn't resist. cry

Anyway, I don't personally believe in Joseph Smith and LDS Church but Mormons are generally nice people, intolerant to some aspects of my life but they are never rude or mean.

A question I have though, the golden plates Joseph Smith supposedly found, where are they?

Haha....I wanted to post that.

Great minds think alike.

There's still some left, I can't remember how it goes though...