Mormons

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
If that was a "False Prophesy," than how can you trust Him?

How can your trust D&C?

How can you trust Pearl Of Great Price?

How can you Regret?

You obviously did not read my rebuttal post. I apologize to you, but you are hard headed and do not wish to debate, only to post your opinions. You did not rebut my response to your initial argument, and moved on to your next. You again did not rebut my response to your second argument and have moved on. This weakens everything you say. You have not been able to support any of your statements, and yet you claim I do not listen. While I have found it interesting discussing with you I will not continue to waste my time, I may respond from time to time, but you have shown that you are lacking in your manners as well as your ability to debate.

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Regret,

Did you know that the book Doctrines & Covenents had to be revised to keep from showing 3 predictions of Joseph Smith that did not come true as he predicted?

Did you know that 2 years after it's printing The Book of Coomandments in 1833 there were 65,000 changes although the first version was supposedly direct word-for-word revelations from God?

Don't believe me? See the notorized photostat copies in (Joseph Smith begins his work Vol 1 & 2).

It doesn't look good for Joseph Smith my friends... 😮

Did you know the Bible, the Bible you and I believe in, has the same flaws, plus many more? Non-Christians cite the other Gospels. They show evidence that Christ visited other areas and then show where his word is the same as that of Holy men in those areas. It has never looked good for Christ my friend... 😮

Some of your statements may have a portion of truth to them, but who propagates them? Non-mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a large population of highly educated men and women who are respected the world over in varying fields of expertise. If these men and women do not admit the credibility of accusations such as you make, and I would wager that most educated Mormons have come into contact with them, then how can you expect to prove it here? More intelligent people than you and I have argued these same points, if you want to argue something with me from here on out actually study your argument out and weigh the apologetics in response prior to wasting my time.

The statement should be made that you have not defended your beliefs adequately to any member of KMC forums. I doubt that anyone on the forum would disagree with that statement. I do believe I have defended mine against your statements. If I am wrong would someone other than Justbyfaith correct me.

Now in closing I will make some solely Christian remarks. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I hope that someday you will understand what that means as I do not believe you really do. In the name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, Amen.

Originally posted by Regret
You obviously did not read my rebuttal post. I apologize to you, but you are hard headed and do not wish to debate, only to post your opinions. You did not rebut my response to your initial argument, and moved on to your next. You again did not rebut my response to your second argument and have moved on. This weakens everything you say. You have not been able to support any of your statements, and yet you claim I do not listen. While I have found it interesting discussing with you I will not continue to waste my time, I may respond from time to time, but you have shown that you are lacking in your manners as well as your ability to debate.

Did you know the Bible, the Bible you and I believe in, has the same flaws, plus many more? Non-Christians cite the other Gospels. They show evidence that Christ visited other areas and then show where his word is the same as that of Holy men in those areas. It has never looked good for Christ my friend... 😮

Some of your statements may have a portion of truth to them, but who propagates them? Non-mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a large population of highly educated men and women who are respected the world over in varying fields of expertise. If these men and women do not admit the credibility of accusations such as you make, and I would wager that most educated Mormons have come into contact with them, then how can you expect to prove it here? More intelligent people than you and I have argued these same points, if you want to argue something with me from here on out actually study your argument out and weigh the apologetics in response prior to wasting my time.

The statement should be made that you have not defended your beliefs adequately to any member of KMC forums. I doubt that anyone on the forum would disagree with that statement. I do believe I have defended mine against your statements. If I am wrong would someone other than Justbyfaith correct me.

Now in closing I will make some solely Christian remarks. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I hope that someday you will understand what that means as I do not believe you really do. In the name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, Amen.

You know what Regret? I think we can reach a concensis. Most likely neither one of us has time to go back and forth nor the emotional tenacity to do so. Me being a dad, husband, church elder and holding 2 businesses together I certainly don't have the time.I happen to find you more pleasant than most on this forum and I wish we could keep it that way. You please defend your faith as you wish and I will do mine. Talk to you likely on another thread Regret.

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
You know what Regret? I think we can reach a concensis. Most likely neither one of us has time to go back and forth nor the emotional tenacity to do so. Me being a dad, husband, church elder and holding 2 businesses together I certainly don't have the time.I happen to find you more pleasant than most on this forum and I wish we could keep it that way. You please defend your faith as you wish and I will do mine. Talk to you likely on another thread Regret.

And you as well.

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Question: Either the prophet Nephi needed more to write about and magically transported to the future to copy out of the Bible or most likely Joseph Smith copied out of the King James Version which was available to him at the time. You make a very powerful and damaging point Space Opera.

Or MAYBE Nephi was a Prophet of God who being in the American continent with no way to know what was going on in the Eastern Continents, so recieved the same revelations as Isiah did. You can't just eliminate the possibility.

Originally posted by Regulus A Black
Or MAYBE Nephi was a Prophet of God who being in the American continent with no way to know what was going on in the Eastern Continents, so recieved the same revelations as Isiah did. You can't just eliminate the possibility.

Justbyfaith is refering to references in the Book of Mormon that are nearly word for word from the New Testament.

My response is this:

God was speaking through various men in the New Testament. God was saying similar things to the prophets of the Book of Mormon. God being repetitive is shown often in the Bible. Also, God was speaking to people that did not have access to the Israelite prophets from ~600 B.C. on, it stands to reason that he told them the same things the Jews would get. Given that Christ would be on earth, if Christ was speaking to them he probably would have told them the things he would tell the Jews, he wasn't in both places in the same time, so he told the Book of Mormon people before his birth.

As for Isaiah... Regulus, Regulus, Regulus... Isaiah prophesied over 100 years prior to Lehi's exodus. ~ 740 B.C. is the beginning of Isaiah, given life expectancy, there is an enormous chance he was dead ~100 years before Lehi's exodus. There is no need to argue about Nephi quoting it.

I love that name....Regulus.

lol, me too...

I'm just entering the argument, but it seems to be about Nephi quoting Isaiah.

It says that he is. He tells us he delights in Isaiah's writings, and reads them often. I believe that it is different in some places, showing the difference between the ancient record, and the king James version that contains errors.

They left Jerusalem a long time after Isaiah. Their family went back to get a record of the Jewish prophets (including Isaiah). That's what he quotes from.

As for the new testament quotes, some of those show a slight, but important difference also. That's why God repeats himself, so we get it right. It's also why he commanded that the Nephites record his commandments, he knew that the book of Mormon would reach the world uncorrupted by time, and human error.

Originally posted by ~dorkerina~
I'm just entering the argument, but it seems to be about Nephi quoting Isaiah.

It says that he is. He tells us he delights in Isaiah's writings, and reads them often. I believe that it is different in some places, showing the difference between the ancient record, and the king James version that contains errors.

They left Jerusalem a long time after Isaiah. Their family went back to get a record of the Jewish prophets (including Isaiah). That's what he quotes from.

As for the new testament quotes, some of those show a slight, but important difference also. That's why God repeats himself, so we get it right. It's also why he commanded that the Nephites record his commandments, he knew that the book of Mormon would reach the world uncorrupted by time, and human error.

Welcome back dorkerina 🙂

Thanks for the comments, the discussion had been whether Joseph Smith was a false prophet. The definition of a false prophet to this point was that a false prophet would state false prophecy.

I left the debate because I did not feel that my opponent was actually paying attention to my rebuttals, his replies did not address them. Also the final comments were off the subject as far as our agreement as to the content and manner of the debate.

Hey regret, many of your men and women of expertise are being removed from BYU as professors because they dared to challenge what the beliefs of their LDS beliefs.... If the LDS church is so true, why would these educated men and women who taught for the Church begin to question it's truthfullness?

Many? I can only think of 2 in the past few years. One of them was that guy who criticized the church's support of the marriage ammendment and the other was a Genetics professor. Who am I missing?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp (The truth about Mormonism)

Dr. D. Michael Quinn was a BYU Professor

Other Mormon Scholars excommunicated:
David P. Wright
Maxine Hanks
Paul Toscano
Lavina Fielding Anderson

Other Mormon Scholars who have challenged their own beliefs:
Brent Metcalf
Leonard Arrington
Simon Southerton
Grant Palmer

Sterling McMurrin
Eugene E. Campbell
Brigham H. Madsen
Brigham H. Roberts
Thomas Stuart Ferguson
Daniel Peterson
You might say Mr. Peterson can not be on that list.. but I disagree:
He wrote a chapter in the Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins, edited by Noel Reynolds. Peterson, a BYU professor and now head of FARMS (BYU’s organization which is attempting to prove Mormonism’s authenticity) admits on page 158, "that the Book of Mormon fails to teach a number of distinctively Latter-day doctrines, even though the Doctrine and Covenants declares it to contain the ‘fulness’of the gospel (D&C 20:9; 27:5; 42:12; 135:3; compare 18:4). This is supposed to show that Mormonism cannot be true if the Book of Mormon is true, and that the Book of Mormon must be false if Mormonism is true. But it is entirely true that no explicit discussion exists in the Book of Mormon of the plurality of gods, eternal progression, celestial marriage, baptism for the dead, the corporeality of God, the denial of ex nihilo creation, and three degrees of glory."

Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
Hey regret, many of your men and women of expertise are being removed from BYU as professors because they dared to challenge what the beliefs of their LDS beliefs.... If the LDS church is so true, why would these educated men and women who taught for the Church begin to question it's truthfullness?

It wasn't that they challenged the LDS beliefs. It occurred because their view was their opinion, not fully supported fact, and they were insistent on promoting this opinion at BYU. This may seem off, but for many people, particularly Mormons, the subject matter taught at BYU is often considered Church sanctioned, and thus can be considered true. This being the case, until these opinions are fact they are typically not encouraged to promote them. These individuals were given warning, and given time to state that their comments had not been fully supported by fact as of the time of the warning. They chose not to make this concession. I don't view it as an issue.

Also, BYU is a Church owned school and not public domain. I do believe that it should not promote a stance in opposition to the Churches beliefs. That would be hypocritical.

Now, BYU is not the Church. I do not feel that these people's personal experience has any impact on me. I believe my religion, and as of yet have never seen solid evidence suggesting it is untrue.

Here is something to think about for those of you [Christians] that are of the opinion that Joseph Smith could not be a prophet because after Christ's coming there were no prophets:

Saul - How did he become converted?

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Now this occurred after Christ had ascended. So revelation and vision, particularly as to a witness of God and Christ as separate beings is possible following Christ.

Defend the stance that there are no more prophets following Christ's coming. Do not forget the timing of this event. If a statement prior to this event is used as support you are denying that Paul had this vision and revelation. Also, if a statement you use as evidence, from following this event, can be shown to have a similar statement prior to this event then the statement is shown as not supporting the end to prophets.

Thanks for the email RAB, I was a little worried when I saw an email from "mikeymormon" on my inbox, I was quite relieved it wasn't some mormon recruiting spam email. I'll read that sometime, when I have a lot of coffee.

Originally posted by ~dorkerina~
I'm just entering the argument, but it seems to be about Nephi quoting Isaiah.

It says that he is. He tells us he delights in Isaiah's writings, and reads them often. I believe that it is different in some places, showing the difference between the ancient record, and the king James version that contains errors.

They left Jerusalem a long time after Isaiah. Their family went back to get a record of the Jewish prophets (including Isaiah). That's what he quotes from.

As for the new testament quotes, some of those show a slight, but important difference also. That's why God repeats himself, so we get it right. It's also why he commanded that the Nephites record his commandments, he knew that the book of Mormon would reach the world uncorrupted by time, and human error.

look at other tranlatiosn of the bible, why would isaiah be more similar to the kjv than any other version of the bible. The kjv came from the latin bible give out by the catholci church, if anything it shoudl be more closely related to that. The standard catholic bible i use differentiates quite a bit form the kjv and the quoted section of isaiah in the bom. Plus the same mistake from the kjv that uses lucifer as the devil is made in this quote in the bom. Lucifer is not the devil that is a msiconception by many christians alike, why woudl god make a msitake like that in helpign j smith transalet the bom?

Originally posted by Eis
Thanks for the email RAB, I was a little worried when I saw an email from "mikeymormon" on my inbox, I was quite relieved it wasn't some mormon recruiting spam email. I'll read that sometime, when I have a lot of coffee.

No problem, i figure it's best to get the answer straight from the real source.

Its often a good place to get it.