Originally posted by Alliance
Yeah. Chick appeared to me in a vision...I woke up next to him in bed...and then two cabbages knocked at my door.
Awww. Mormon cabbages. They would be so cute, with their little name tags and ties, pushing a tandem bicycle perhaps.
Adorable. Oh wait, I am thinking of cabbage patch dolls dressed as Mormons. An actual cabbage... would still be cute.
Originally posted by Regret
I think the term "change" is perhaps slightly off. Here is an example of my view:A hammer is on a pendulum. A man is locked in place at the center of the arc, unable to move anything but his arms. The man throws the hammer. If nothing interferes with the hammer the hammer will strike the man. However, if another were to stand in front of the hammer, and take the blow, the blow would hit the one that stepped in the way.
If this is a change in the flow of karma, then yes. Although, the scale of the change implemented by Christ in the Atonement is such that I would not believe that any other would have the ability to do so. Although, small changes are implemented by us when we do not require the consequence that another's action would bring about, when we forgive another. But these small changes merely shift the consequence of that action to ourselves, we allow the slight to be suffered by ourselves.
Originally posted by Regret
You're welcome.Did you agree with my statement? Or was it different than what you were describing?
I am still considering your comment, and I may agree more fully than I posted. The idea that if you had the faith of a mustard seed you could say to a mountain, "move" and it would move, may be a drastic change in karma, cause and effect.
My Justice is the same as your cause and effect for the most part I believe.
I have thought nine times about this. The parallels you see may very well be true. However, we part company in one place. If I take on your imagery, the difference would be that the only hammer is the one in own minds. There is no hammer in the true reality, only us; and the good or bad that we make. God is not separate; in some far away land. We are the part of God that lives. The only part of cause and effect we can change is us.
However, I understand what you believe, better now, then I did before.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have thought nine times about this. The parallels you see may very well be true. However, we part company in one place. If I take on your imagery, the difference would be that the only hammer is the one in own minds. There is no hammer in the true reality, only us; and the good or bad that we make. God is not separate; in some far away land. We are the part of God that lives. The only part of cause and effect we can change is us.However, I understand what you believe, better now, then I did before.
I have been considering this, sorry for the delay in reply.
This view could fit my view as well, I'll have to think on it more, I do not know.
In your belief, is there an external effect of wrong, or improper action?
I would say that Christ's sacrifice was him stepping between the external return effect and the individual accepting his sacrifice, as well as a means by which one is free of the internal return effect and may then alter their internal cause and effect due to this intervention...
I am just considering my beliefs in this metaphor, and how they would fit into it. I will have to consider this further.
Originally posted by Regret
I have been considering this, sorry for the delay in reply.This view could fit my view as well, I'll have to think on it more, I do not know.
In your belief, is there an external effect of wrong, or improper action?
I would say that Christ's sacrifice was him stepping between the external return effect and the individual accepting his sacrifice, as well as a means by which one is free of the internal return effect and may then alter their internal cause and effect due to this intervention...
I am just considering my beliefs in this metaphor, and how they would fit into it. I will have to consider this further.
Have you been thinking 9 times? 😄
Good and evil:
According to The Soka Gakkai Dictionary of Buddhism the term Evil Path has the following meaning: “The realms of suffering into which fall those who have committed evil acts; also the suffering that such people undergo. “Path” her means a state of life or realm of existence. The words of hell, hungry spirits, and animals are called the three evil paths, and with the realm of assuras they are called the four evil paths.”
Assuras = A type of demon in Indian mythology.
In the true reality those who do evil follow the evil paths and therefore suffer hell on this Earth. You could say that the Buddhist hell is not after death, but here life after life until we wake up and realize our true nature.
The only sin is the slander of the law. But that is a topic for another thread.
Re: Anyone else here LDS(mormon)/ want to talk about this?
Originally posted by ~dorkerina~
😱 HI! i'm new here! I love religious discussion threads!
I was just wondering if anyone here is LDS, like i am, or want's to talk to me about it.First if your not mormon i want to share some things with you! 😄
Mormon is just a nickname, the real title is
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.We are Christians.
We are not poligamists (in fact if you practice poligamy you are discomunicated (blocked off the church records))
We do not live like the omish (haha i'm using a computer!!) 🙄
We do not hate non-mormons.... I don't know your experiences but...
Any other questions??
Let me know, I don't bite!😉
Are you aware of these anti-Christian Mormon doctrines? Not bashing or knocking Mormons just showing what their leaders teach.
Is Mormonism Christian?
A Comparison of Mormonism and Historic Christianity
Copyright © 1999 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved.
Is Mormonism Christian? This may seem like a puzzling question to many Mormons as well as to some Christians. Mormons will note that they include the Bible among the four books which they recognize as Scripture, and that belief in Jesus Christ is central to their faith, as evidenced by their official name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, many Christians have heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing Christian hymns and are favorably impressed with the Mormon commitment to high moral standards and strong families. Doesn’t it follow that Mormonism is Christian?
To fairly and accurately resolve this question we need to carefully compare the basic doctrines of the Mormon religion with the basic doctrines of historic, biblical Christianity. To represent the Mormon position we have relied on the following well-known Mormon doctrinal books, the first three of which are published by the Mormon Church: Gospel Principles (1997), Achieving a Celestial Marriage (1976), and A Study of the Articles of Faith (1979) by Mormon Apostle James E. Talmage, as well as Doctrines of Salvation (3 vols.) by the tenth Mormon President and prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed., 1979) by Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
1. IS THERE MORE THAN ONE TRUE GOD?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that there is only one True and Living God and apart from Him there are no other Gods (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; 44:6,8; 45:21,22; 46:9; Mark 12:29-34).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there are many Gods (Book of Abraham 4:3ff), and that we can become gods and goddesses in the celestial kingdom (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20; Gospel Principles, p. 245; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 130). It also teaches that those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them, just as we worship and pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, p. 302).
2. WAS GOD ONCE A MAN LIKE US?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that God is Spirit (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 6:15,16), He is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Romans 1:22, 23), and has always (eternally) existed as God — all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present (Psalm 90:2; 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:28; Luke 1:37).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that God the Father was once a man like us who progressed to become a God and has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; Gospel Principles, p. 9; Articles of Faith, p. 430; Mormon Doctrine, p. 321). Indeed, the Mormon Church teaches that God himself has a father, and a grandfather, ad infinitum (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373; Mormon Doctrine, p. 577).
3. ARE JESUS AND SATAN SPIRIT BROTHERS?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Jesus is the unique Son of God; he has always existed as God, and is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father (John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 14:9; Colossians 2:9). While never less than God, at the appointed time He laid aside the glory He shared with the Father (John 17:4, 5; Philippians 2:6-11) and was made flesh for our salvation; His incarnation was accomplished through being conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:34-35).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child by Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother; He was later conceived physically through intercourse between Heavenly Father and the virgin Mary (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742). Mormon doctrine affirms that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers (Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18; Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
4. IS GOD A TRINITY?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost are not separate Gods or separate beings, but are distinct Persons within the one Triune Godhead. Throughout the New Testament the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father are separately identified as and act as God (Son: Mark 2:5-12; John 20:28; Philippians 2:10,11; Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18; 13:14); yet at the same time the Bible teaches that these three are only one God (see point 1).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577), and that the Son and Holy Ghost are the literal offspring of Heavenly Father and a celestial wife (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 649).
5. WAS THE SIN OF ADAM AND EVE A GREAT EVIL OR A GREAT BLESSING?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the disobedience of our first parents Adam and Eve was a great evil. Through their fall sin entered the world, bringing all human beings under condemnation and death. Thus we are born with a sinful nature, and will be judged for the sins we commit as individuals. (Ezekiel 18:1-20; Romans 5:12-21).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Adam’s sin was "a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us" (Gospel Principles, p. 33; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 2:25; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 114-115).
6. CAN WE MAKE OURSELVES WORTHY BEFORE GOD?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1,5) and are powerless to save ourselves. By grace alone, apart from self-righteous works, God forgives our sins and makes us worthy to live in His presence (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6). Our part is only to cling to Christ in heartfelt faith. (However, it is certainly true that without the evidence of changed conduct, a person’s testimony of faith in Christ must be questioned; salvation by grace alone through faith, does not mean we can live as we please — Romans 6:1-4).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that eternal life in the presence of God (which it terms "exaltation in the celestial kingdom"😉 must be earned through obedience to all the commands of the Mormon Church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals. Works are a requirement for salvation (entrance into the "celestial kingdom"😉 — Gospel Principles, p. 303-304; Pearl of Great Price — Third Article of Faith; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 339, 671; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 25:23).
7. DOES CHRIST'S ATONING DEATH BENEFIT THOSE WHO REJECT HIM?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the purpose of the atoning work of Christ on the cross was to provide the complete solution for humankind’s sin problem. However, those who reject God’s grace in this life will have no part in this salvation but are under the judgment of God for eternity (John 3:36; Hebrews 9:27; 1 John 5:11-12).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the purpose of the atonement was to bring resurrection and immortality to all people, regardless of whether they receive Christ by faith. Christ’s atonement is only a partial basis for worthiness and eternal life, which also requires obedience to all the commands of the Mormon church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals (Gospel Principles, pp. 74-75; Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).
8. IS THE BIBLE THE UNIQUE AND FINAL WORD OF GOD?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the Bible is the unique, final and infallible Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2; 2 Peter 1:21) and that it will stand forever (1 Peter 1:23-25). God’s providential preservation of the text of the Bible was marvelously illustrated in the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the Bible has been corrupted, is missing many "plain and precious parts" and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel (Book of Mormon — 1 Nephi 13:26-29; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 190-191).
Originally posted by docb77
What JIA doesn't realize is that ALL of his criticisms of LDS theology have been more than taken care of by LDS apologetics. Anti-mormons have been using the same arguments for ages, any studious mormon can refute them by now.
Care to provide some links to that? I will check them out.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveAgain I say the battle of books?...............Divine according to your book, Muslims say the same,...........many beliefs say the same........soooooooooooo what is divine?
No battle...there is no battle at all. The Bible is the Word of God all other "religious" texts are just that: works with no divine inspiration.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Care to provide some links to that? I will check them out.
FAIR - Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research - www.fairlds.org
FARMS - Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies - www.farms.byu.edu
A word of caution about these 2 sites, since they're foundations and articles are written by multiple people some are better researched or draw better conclusions than others.
if you feel like reading there's "Are Mormons Christians" by Stephen E. Robinson.
An easy read that doesn't push to convert is "Our Search for Happiness" by M. Russell Ballard.
Of course if you really want to know what mormons believe I'd start with the Bible (I assume you're well read there already), the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smiths testimony, and Doctrine and Covenants.
Re: Re: Anyone else here LDS(mormon)/ want to talk about this?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The strength of my faith is not the issue. I am talking about "doctrinal" differences with respect to belief systems. Mormons hold some very alarming beliefs as do Catholics relative to the Bible. Their beliefs actually contradict the Bible.
Your cut and paste attack, is filled with holes.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
1. IS THERE MORE THAN ONE TRUE GOD?The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that there is only one True and Living God and apart from Him there are no other Gods (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; 44:6,8; 45:21,22; 46:9; Mark 12:29-34).
Deuteronomy 6:4
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord:
Does not necessitate only one God, it merely necessitates that the Lord God is one Lord. This could be interpreted as anti-Trinitarian in that it states that the Lord God is not three Lords.
Isaiah 43:10-11
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Mormons believe that Christ and the Father speak throughout the Old Testament, and so some references are Christ speaking, while others are the Father speaking. This is Christ speaking. Christ is the only child of God that was a God upon his forming. There were no others that were God upon being formed, before or after Christ.
Isaiah 45 21-22, 46:9
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Once again, Christ speaking, and there is no God beside him among God the Father's children, none like Christ.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
2. WAS GOD ONCE A MAN LIKE US?
Trinitarian doctrine teaches that God did change, he became a man, Christ. Given this there is no room to attack based on an unchanging God, the attack invalidates Trinitarian doctrine. The Bible does not assert conclusively as to the origin of God, any concepts as to this are not unBiblical, they are simple speculation from a Bible only perspective.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
3. ARE JESUS AND SATAN SPIRIT BROTHERS?
This attack only holds if Trinitarian doctrine is based on conclusive Biblical reference. The attack is used because of the assumption of such. The assumption is invalid, the Bible is inconclusive as to Trinitarian doctrine. Also, Trinitarian doctrine was not adopted as official doctrine until the Council at Nicaea, 3 centuries after Christ's death.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
4. IS GOD A TRINITY?
Once again no conclusive Biblical proof. And such Doctrine was not adopted as doctrine until 3 centuries after Christ's death. The idea that the early Church believed such is only assumption based on centuries of indoctrination into Trinitarian belief begun by the Catholics you referred to here:
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Mormons hold some very alarming beliefs as do Catholics relative to the Bible.
Sorry, but here you "hold some very alarming beliefs as do Catholics relative to the Bible."
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
5. WAS THE SIN OF ADAM AND EVE A GREAT EVIL OR A GREAT BLESSING?
We view it as a transgression, since sin requires understanding, and prior to partaking of the fruit, Adam and Eve did not have an understanding. We do believe that had they not partaken, they never would have reproduced, and thus man would never have come into being. The Bible itself does not state conclusively on this either.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
6. CAN WE MAKE OURSELVES WORTHY BEFORE GOD?
Man is only saved by grace through faith. The problem is that for faith to truly be present works must be present:
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Also, the Bible states that after being saved we are still judges at the Judgement Seat, a point where works are important:
Rom. 14: 10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.2 Cor. 5: 10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
But I understand that those attacking with this prefer to ignore the scriptures that refute their claims.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
7. DOES CHRIST'S ATONING DEATH BENEFIT THOSE WHO REJECT HIM?
All are resurrected due to the Atonement. The Atonement allows men to repent. All receive some portion of the atonement. Mormons believe that to reject Christ requires an absolute knowledge of Christ, it is rather difficult for such to occur.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
8. IS THE BIBLE THE UNIQUE AND FINAL WORD OF GOD?
The Bible is not infallible, such belief is an error in interpretation. If it were, it would be impossible to interpret or translate it inaccurately, this is not the case. Also, refer to my thread "2 Timothy 3:16" for an exposition of this interpretation.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
9. DID THE EARLY CHURCH FALL INTO TOTAL APOSTASY?
So, are you a Catholic? I am sorry JIA, but this one is blatantly invalid by virtue of the oldest existing Christian system being the Catholic Church. Also, what of the apostasy spoken of here:
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
There must be a falling away before the day of Christ is at hand. The apostasy occurred, and if it hasn't the day of Christ will never come.
Sorry JIA, but your attacks are based in interpretations of the Bible, not in the Bible. Your interpretation is in error, and thus you present the Word of God in error.