Originally posted by AllianceThanks Alliance. I do believe that is a fundamental difference between JIA and myself. JIA believes the mythology of Christianity is the point, I believe the mythology of Christianity is a means of achieving the point. They sound similar, but I believe they are very different.
Yes. But while some people just believe the mythology, some realize the mythology has a point.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Regret, you stated that God has a physical body. Do you know what that implies? That God is both human and divine.
That is my stance. Humanity is divine in nature. Mormons believe we are literally children of God. We are made in the image of God, we have the potential to be everything God is. This does not threaten our belief, it does threaten yours.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus Christ is the only Person in the Godhead that has a physical, flesh and bone (not flesh and blood) body.
You are wrong here. If I were to say I am a spirit I would be Biblically correct, for all men are spirits combined with our physical bodies. There is no conflict with God being Spirit yet having a physical form, such a conflict exists only within the bounds of your, and those that hold similar views, interpretation.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus is the only Person who is both divine and human simultaneously.
Jesus is the only person to be a direct physical child of God the Father. This does not limit the Father's existence.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Holy Spirit does not have a physical body because He indwells believers.
That is our belief. The Holy Spirit will receive a body though, Mormons believe he will be the last spirit to receive a body.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God the Father is a Spirit according to the Bible. How is that my interpretation. Every other rational, clear-thinking believer in Jesus Christ knows that God does not have a physical body. But the Mormons think otherwise. Look, your doctrine concerning God having a physical body is rank foolishness, the height of error, and just plain unscriptural--and yet you still hold this unfounded belief. Regret, this belief that you and other Mormon's hold is not a matter interpretation, but a matter su-ppression. You are suppressing the Truth because your allegiance is to your religion and not to the Person that your beliefs are suppose to revolve around and be the center of. This is very unfortunate. I believe that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many other religious organizations as well as individuals fall under the category that Jesus described in Matthew 7:21.
Yes, we do believe God has a body. If I were to say I am a spirit I would be Biblically correct, for all men are spirits combined with our physical bodies. There is no conflict with God being Spirit yet having a physical form, such a conflict exists only within the bounds of your, and those that hold similar views, interpretation.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveIt is good that you understand your errors, you should read this last portion of your post and apply it to yourself JIA. The scripture says that faith without works is dead. Works are a necessary part of living as Christ taught. They may not be a part of what saves a person, but they are necessary all the same. You are one of those that is mentioned in Matthew 7
Jesus said that many will say to Him in that day, [B]Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name, cast out demons in Your Name, and done many wonders in Your Name? And then Jesus will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.!" Folks, it does not matter what your "religion" is or what "church" you go to or what your religious affiliation is. It is absolutely imperative for you to have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. You must know Jesus Christ for yourself. Jesus rejects these people for one reason: Jesus says, I...never...knew...you (if you have not repented of your sins and asked Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Savior then you are who Jesus is talking to. Is that what you truly want? Do you want to stand before Jesus and say, "But I was basically a good person. I may not have gone to church but I never killed anyone. "I...never...knew...you. Depart from me you who practice lawlessness. That is what you are going to here. All of these people were religious people. They claim to have done all of these "good," "virtuous," "moral" things and yet Jesus says that He never knew them. Let this sink in. Folks you cannot get into Heaven on any good, moral works or effort. God has ordained that salvation from sin and thus entrance into Heaven (you must be born again to enter Heaven. You get born again (or saved) by confessing Jesus as your Lord and believing in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead. None of your religious works can save you from God's righteous judgment. Put your faith in a Person (Jesus Christ) and not in some prophet, priest, rabbi, pastor, evangelist, teacher, apostle or and so forth. [/COLOR] [/B]
Matthew 7:21-29
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
You heareth these sayings of Christ's, and doeth them not. Why? Because of a verse that says that works are not necessary. You are as the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23. You should read that chapter, it is spoken to you.
Originally posted by Regret
Thanks Alliance. I do believe that is a fundamental difference between JIA and myself. JIA believes the mythology of Christianity is the point, I believe the mythology of Christianity is a means of achieving the point. They sound similar, but I believe they are very different.
I agree, and I think its obvious where you do and don't lie on the Christian spectrum.
The point is the important part. When I was "Christian" I was taught one thing. Jesus was a good neighbor, so we should be good neighbors too.
THAT is the redeeming value of Christianity.
Originally posted by AllianceI wholly agree.
I agree, and I think its obvious where you do and don't lie on the Christian spectrum.The point is the important part. When I was "Christian" I was taught one thing. Jesus was a good neighbor, so we should be good neighbors too.
THAT is the redeeming value of Christianity.
Originally posted by Regret
That is my stance. Humanity is divine in nature. Mormons believe we are literally children of God. We are made in the image of God, we have the potential to be everything God is. This does not threaten our belief, it does threaten yours.You are wrong here. If I were to say I am a spirit I would be Biblically correct, for all men are spirits combined with our physical bodies. There is no conflict with God being Spirit yet having a physical form, such a conflict exists only within the bounds of your, and those that hold similar views, interpretation.
Jesus is the only person to be a direct physical child of God the Father. This does not limit the Father's existence.
That is our belief. The Holy Spirit will receive a body though, Mormons believe he will be the last spirit to receive a body.
Yes, we do believe God has a body. If I were to say I am a spirit I would be Biblically correct, for all men are spirits combined with our physical bodies. There is no conflict with God being Spirit yet having a physical form, such a conflict exists only within the bounds of your, and those that hold similar views, interpretation.
It is good that you understand your errors, you should read this last portion of your post and apply it to yourself JIA. The scripture says that faith without works is dead. Works are a necessary part of living as Christ taught. They may not be a part of what saves a person, but they are necessary all the same. You are one of those that is mentioned in Matthew 7
You heareth these sayings of Christ's, and doeth them not. Why? Because of a verse that says that works are not necessary. You are as the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23. You should read that chapter, it is spoken to you.
Like I said, nothing that you believe can be supported by the Bible. And as I have aforestated, your faith is in your doctrine (which is unscriptural) and not in a Person. I have nothing left to say about this issue, and I will not respond to any more posts about what Mormons believe. Keep believing what you want to believe even though it cannot be supported by the Bible.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveAnd you. Mormon Doctrine is heavily supported by the Bible, only not by your interpretation of the Bible. Since, according to you, Biblical support is only found in a specific interpretation, I have decided that you must not have any Biblical support for your beliefs as I disagree with your interpretation.
Like I said, nothing that you believe can be supported by the Bible. And as I have aforestated, your faith is in your doctrine (which is unscriptural) and not in a Person. I have nothing left to say about this issue, and I will not respond to any more posts about what Mormons believe. Keep believing what you want to believe even though it cannot be supported by the Bible.
Our foundation is this:
Articles of Faith 1
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We are wholly supported by God, the Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, and by the Holy Ghost. We do believe in the Bible and hold it and the teachings it contains as sacred and holy scripture, but Christ is our rock, he is the center of our religion. It is too bad that your foundation is only the pieces of paper that contain God's, and the Godhead's, dealings with man, as recorded by man. Our foundation is the continued support of God, he still speaks to us.
Originally posted by Regret
Christ is our rock, he is the center of our religion. He still speaks to us.
LDS commentary on doubt:
John A. Widtsoe LDS Apostle (1921-1952)
IS IT WRONG TO DOUBT?Doubt usually means uncertainty. You doubt the presence of gold in the ore, though there are yellow flakes in it; or that the man is a thief, though stolen goods are found in his possession; or that a principle of the gospel is correctly interpreted by the speaker. What you really mean is that the evidence in your possession is insufficient to convince you that there is gold in the ore, or that the man is a thief, or that the gospel principle has been explained correctly. Doubt arises from lack of evidence.
Intelligent people cannot long endure such doubt. It must be resolved. Proof must be secured of the presence of gold in the ore or of the dishonesty of the man, or of the correctness of the doctrinal exposition. Consequently, we set about to remove doubt by gathering information and making tests concerning the subject in question. Doubt, then, becomes converted into inquiry or investigation.
After proper inquiries, using all the powers at our command, the truth concerning the subject becomes known, or it remains unknown to be unravelled perhaps at some future time. The weight of evidence is on one side or the other. Doubt is removed. Doubt, therefore, can be and should be only a temporary condition. Certainly, a question cannot forever be suspended between heaven and earth; it is either answered or unanswered. As the results of an inquiry appear, doubt must flee.
In other words, doubt, which ever is or should be a passing condition, must never itself be an end. Doubt as an objective of life is an intellectual and a spiritual offense. A lasting doubt implies an unwillingness on the part of the individual to seek the solution of his problem, or a fear to face the truth. Doubt should vanish as it appears, or as soon as proper inquiry can place it either with the known or the unknown facts of life; with the solvable or the unsolvable; with the knowable or the unknowable.
The strong man is not afraid to say, "I do not know"; the weak man simpers and answers, "I doubt." Doubt, unless transmuted into inquiry, has no value or worth in the world. Of itself it has never lifted a brick, driven a nail, or turned a furrow. To take pride in being a doubter, without earnestly seeking to remove the doubt, is to reveal shallowness of thought and purpose.
Perhaps you are questioning the correctness of a gospel principle. Call it doubt if you prefer. Proceed to take it out of the region of doubt by examination and practice. Soon it will be understood, or left with the many things not yet within the reach of man. But remember: failure to understand one principle does not vitiate other principles. When proved false, one doctrine may cast distrust upon other doctrines, but the others must be tested for their own correctness.
Doubt of the right kind -- that is, honest questioning -- leads to faith. Such doubt impels men to inquiry which always opens the door to truth. The scientist in his laboratory, the explorer in distant parts, the prayerful man upon his knees -- these and all inquirers like them find truth. They learn that some things are known, others are not. They cease to doubt. They settle down with the knowledge they possess to make the forces of nature do their bidding, knowing well that they will be victorious; and that more knowledge will come to them, if sought, to yield new power.
On the other hand the stagnant doubter, one content with himself, unwilling `to make the effort, to pay the price of discovery, inevitably reaches unbelief and miry darkness. His doubts grow like poisonous mushrooms in the dim shadows of his mental and spiritual chambers. At last, blind like the mole in his burrow, he usually substitutes ridicule for reason, and indolence for labor. The simplest truth is worth the sum of all such doubts. He joins the unhappy army of doubters who, weakened by their doubts, have at all periods of human history allowed others, men of faith, to move the world into increasing light.
Faith is practically the opposite of doubt. Faith rests securely upon "evidences" and "assurances." Note the definition by the Apostle Paul: "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith knows, and goes forth courageously to use knowledge in the affairs of men. It declares itself the master of things; it lays mountains low; it lifts valleys; it promotes the welfare of man.
Joseph Smith is an excellent example of proper doubt. The ministers of his day were contending for the membership of the boy. He went to God for help; received it; and doubt disappeared. From that day on, doubt did not reappear. His doubt was lost in the desired knowledge he gained from proper inquiry. So may every man do.
The unknown universe, material, mental, spiritual, is greater than the known. If we seek, we shall forever add knowledge to knowledge. That which seems dark today, will be crystal clear tomorrow. Eternal progress means the unending elucidation of things not known or understood today.
No! Doubt is not wrong unless it becomes an end of life. It rises to high dignity when it becomes an active search for, and practice of, truth.
Doubt which immediately leads to honest inquiry, and thereby removes itself, is wholesome. But that doubt which feeds and grows upon itself, and, with stubborn indolence, breeds more doubt, is evil.
My whole family is Mormon. They are good people they don't push there believes on people and you wouldn't know they were Mormon unless you asked, or saw that we have a family of 12 the Mormon stereotype fulfilled.
My parents didn't push there religion on us (the kids) they let us choose to be or not to be. I went a few times and found 3 hours of church way too much and I don't believe in god or an afterlife so I didn't get baptized and do not believe in the teachings of the religion.
My great great great grandpa’s name was Moses Thatcher and I lived in a tiny Mormon town named after him with a 90% Mormon population kinda crazy.
Originally posted by Regret
That's cool. I myself dislike the three hour block as well, but it does produce individuals well educated in Mormon beliefs. Very few Mormons can say that they are unsure of what Mormon doctrines are, something the majority of non-Mormon religions cannot claim.
On Truth
John A. Widtsoe LDS Apostle (1921-1952)
WHAT IS TRUTH?Truth is the desired objective of all rational human action. Science and religion alike are built on truth. Jesus, the Christ, frankly declared to Pilate that "To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." (John 18:37)
The meaning of a word so commonly used should be generally and correctly understood. Yet, subjected to philosophical speculation, truth has often been given diverse meanings, or left befogged in clouds of abstraction.
In a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith occurs a very simple yet comprehensive definition, "Truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come." (D. & C. 93:24)—that is, truth is synonymous with accurate knowledge or a product of it.
This cuts away all underbrush. Without knowledge, truth may not be found. Truth is revealed by knowledge; and knowledge is gained by man through his various senses assisted by such aids as he may secure. That is, the facts of observation, in the visible or invisible world, lead to truth; and truth must conform to human experience. To the seeker after knowledge, truth is constantly being revealed.
The dictionary agrees well in one of its several definitions with the Prophet: "Truth is conformity with fact or reality; exact accordance with that which is, or has been, or will be." This also expresses the thought that truth issues from knowledge.
This throws the burden of discovering truth upon the individual. As he obtains knowledge in any field, he will gain truth. But the knowledge must be correct, factual, or it does not lead to truth.
There has been endless speaking and writing about ultimate or final truth. It may as well be admitted at once, and without reservation, that mortal man, gathering knowledge through imperfect senses—his only avenues to truth—must remain content, in many fields of endeavor, with partial truth. The eye of man, sweeping the heavens, gathers some knowledge of the universe; with the aid of telescope and spectroscope more is won; but full knowledge of the starry heavens is yet far beyond man's reach. Nevertheless, the knowledge gained by the bare eye, or by the aid of instruments, reveals truth—partial but noble truth, fit to stand by the side of all other truth. With the progress of time, knowledge-seeking, truth-loving man will ever approach the fulness of truth.
The attempt has also been made to limit man's search for truth to the material universe. This implies that there is no other universe, or that man is incapable of exploring spiritual domains. Both alternatives are unacceptable to sound thinking. Man and the eternal universe cannot be confined within the limits of materialism. Therefore, in the search for truth man may touch the source of life, as also the immobile stone; the eternal past, as the endless future; the Lord of the heavens, as the humblest of His creatures; the spiritual, as the material worlds.
In the search for truth it becomes, of course, evident that there are divisions of knowledge. One deals with facts alone; another with the use of the facts for man's good or evil; yet another, to those who believe in God, with the conformity of statements or actions to divine laws.
In a world of living things, knowledge that helps man is of greatest importance, and highest value. Indeed, knowledge of the universe is of value only as it serves man in his upward, progressive journey. Within that statement lie the truths of religion; and therein the importance of religion becomes evident. Simply to gather truth without regard to man's welfare spells an empty life. Or, to gather truth for the purpose of injuring man, makes a devil of such a seeker after knowledge. Only those who seek to find the use of truth for every man's advancement, are the acceptable seekers after truth.
In its noblest sense, truth is knowledge gathered and used for human welfare.
Truth is the most precious possession of man. Light is its fellow traveler. He who walks in the light, may travel intelligently and safely. (D. & C. 93:29, 36) There, also, is a test of truth. (D. & C. 50:23, 24)