Actually mainstream Mormonism gave up the concept of Polygamy in order for desseret to be accepted as the state of Utah. The only reason they practiced it was due to the extermination that happened that drove them out of their homes in Missouri and Illinois. They lost alot of men so there were families without fathers, as there weren't enough men to support them by having one wife a piece.
It's only the offshoots/sects of the mainstream religion that still practice it.
Originally posted by Shelbert Lemon
Polygamy is still practiced amongst a few here and there.
Originally posted by Quark_666The "Mormon Church" is typically a statement referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The LDS Church.) The LDS Church has not practiced polygamy since the manifesto, which was declared officially in 1890. For a decent overview check wikipedia, the information is fairly accurate although motivation is often blurred by those with disagreements as to belief. Here is the site Manifesto.
The Mormon church excommunicates polygamists, and then the polygamists usually join one of the sub-denominations of the Mormon church that practices polygamy.
Polygamy is not practiced by a few here and there, unless of course you refer to Mormon in a similar manner as many refer to Buddhist. There are various groups that are not in any manner affiliated with the main body, other than historical relationship.
I believe if you surf back through this thread I have addressed polygamy at some point and rather thoroughly discussed our, the LDS, position on the subject.
Another issue raised was the reasons for polygamy. Polygamy was brought into being because God stated it. It's purpose was not necessarily population related, the reasons for it have never been stated.
I don't think any God justifies the rules they set. Mostly, their people draw their own conclusions about why the law was set. In the Ten Commandments, God never said "thou shalt not kill because you are equal to others and you will eventually be punished and it is just wrong and isn't part of your purpose." He said "thou shalt not kill", and everybody saw the wisdom behind the commandment.
Not all commandments have such obvious logic. Sometimes, believers in a religion must let go of their necessity to recognize the logic and simply trust the commandment. Because of bias, I try not to get in arguments about my religion (which is Mormonism). But I think it is fair for me to put it this way:
This is the assumed logic (according to most Mormons) behind the commandment of polygamy. It is also what is portrayed in most historical perspectives:
Originally posted by Creshosk
Actually mainstream Mormonism gave up the concept of Polygamy in order for desseret to be accepted as the state of Utah. The only reason they practiced it was due to the extermination that happened that drove them out of their homes in Missouri and Illinois. They lost alot of men so there were families without fathers, as there weren't enough men to support them by having one wife a piece.It's only the offshoots/sects of the mainstream religion that still practice it.
But even if Mormons at the time hadn't seen this point or any other point of logic behind God's commandment, it would have been their religious duty to obey.
Originally posted by chickenlover98How'd you draw that conclusion from the post?
o ok so basically your god never justified in anyway one of his rules/laws? perfect
Originally posted by Quark_666And where's the douctrine indicating that it was a rule handed down by God?
But even if Mormons at the time hadn't seen this point or any other point of logic behind God's commandment, it would have been their religious duty to obey.
To be honest up front, there is no proof for any of our revelations being from God. If Joseph Smith really was a prophet, then polygamy was a commandment of God. If Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, polygamy wasn't a commandment of God. It all rests on that single principle.
I realize there is no proof for Joseph Smith receiving revelation. I still believe he did, and I have my own reasons for believing it. I can explain further if you really want to hear why.
How come there are no Latter Day Saint "temples" in lower class, lower-middle class, hell even the ghetto neighborhoods?? People in the ghetto need a little cult lovin too sly . Why are all the "members" rich white people? Why do you HAVE to put in "10% tithes" every month or you get no entrance into the temple?? Marketing strategy maybe??
Most coming of age Mormons do "missions," as in missionary work, but why don't they actually help people and be missionaries, not just spread their propaganda around? Why not rebuild orphanages, help the needy, feed the poor? My stepbrother was in Italy a couple of years ago doing his "mission" and in the winter the floors were heated so his little Mormon feet wouldn't be cold...now is that how "Christian money" should be spent...that is not missionary work that is called a vacation while spreading your word for two years? Well maybe that is just my stepbro's experience ( I have never met any other Mormon before my dad married one a few years ago)... And should they be making CASTLE-like structured temples that cost hundreds-of-thousands of dollars...are you trying to prove something?? Has anyone seen the monstrosity in San Diego....I just don't get Mormonism....and there is the whole Joseph Smith and the Mormon bible 🙄
Joseph Smith = Warren Jeffs same person spreading the same nonsense.... thumbdown
Originally posted by Fade and Remainhttp://www.ldschurchtemples.com/rexburg/construction/
How come there are no Latter Day Saint "temples" in lower class, lower-middle class, hell even the ghetto neighborhoods??
Originally posted by Fade and RemainIts clear from your word usage that your intention is merely to troll.
People in the ghetto need a little cult lovin too sly .
Originally posted by Fade and Remain
Why are all the "members" rich white people?
It's pretty clear by this point that your words are full of hatred and ignorance. and your intent is purely to troll that which you OBVIUSLY do not understand.
Originally posted by Regret
The "Mormon Church" is typically a statement referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The LDS Church.) The LDS Church has not practiced polygamy since the manifesto, which was declared officially in 1890. For a decent overview check wikipedia, the information is fairly accurate although motivation is often blurred by those with disagreements as to belief. Here is the site Manifesto.Polygamy is not practiced by a few here and there, unless of course you refer to Mormon in a similar manner as many refer to Buddhist. There are various groups that are not in any manner affiliated with the main body, other than historical relationship.
I believe if you surf back through this thread I have addressed polygamy at some point and rather thoroughly discussed our, the LDS, position on the subject.
Another issue raised was the reasons for polygamy. Polygamy was brought into being because God stated it. It's purpose was not necessarily population related, the reasons for it have never been stated.
It's okay to refer to the Mormon Church as the Mormon church.
And it is unreasonable to expect somebody to search through ninety six pages of material to find something you wrote. If you want people to read it, just quote yourself.
Originally posted by Fade and Remain
How come there are no Latter Day Saint "temples" in lower class, lower-middle class, hell even the ghetto neighborhoods?? People in the ghetto need a little cult lovin too sly . Why are all the "members" rich white people? Why do you HAVE to put in "10% tithes" every month or you get no entrance into the temple?? Marketing strategy maybe??Most coming of age Mormons do "missions," as in missionary work, but why don't they actually help people and be missionaries, not just spread their propaganda around? Why not rebuild orphanages, help the needy, feed the poor? My stepbrother was in Italy a couple of years ago doing his "mission" and in the winter the floors were heated so his little Mormon feet wouldn't't be cold...now is that how "Christian money" should be spent...that is not missionary work that is called a vacation while spreading your word for two years? Well maybe that is just my stepbro's experience ( I have never met any other Mormon before my dad married one a few years ago)... And should they be making CASTLE-like structured temples that cost hundreds-of-thousands of dollars...are you trying to prove something?? Has anyone seen the monstrosity in San Diego....I just don't get Mormonism....and there is the whole Joseph Smith and the Mormon bible 🙄
Joseph Smith = Warren Jeffs same person spreading the same nonsense.... thumbdown
As I mentioned earlier, I generally avoid getting into arguments about my own religion because I tend to be a bit biased, and bias is not a logical approach to a problem.
In this case though, I’ll do my best to answer your questions logically. And if I’m being unreasonable…I’m sure someone will correct me.
Let’s review your main points:
· All Mormons are rich white people . I’m a Mormon, and I’m not rich. I haven’t heard of any religion that is completely rich, without any poor. You might just be going off of the Mormons you know. Actually, most people in the United States and Europe can be classified as “rich” and “white”. But there are more Mormons outside the United States then there are inside anyway. There are, in fact, nearly as many black Mormons (world wide) as there are white mormons.
· Everybody has to give 10% tithes to get into the temple People who can’t afford tithing simply explain the situation to their bishop, who will make an exception. Those members receive all the rights and privileges of full tithe payers. In fact, if they are financially poor enough (and can prove it), the bishop is responsible to give them money (from the church budget) to support themselves.
· Mormon missionaries don’t actually help people
It is part of the duty of the missionaries to give service to those who can use it, but they have to be invited to do so. You would be kind of freaked out if you were cleaning out your flooded basement and two Mormon missionaries showed up out of nowhere and started helping, wouldn't’t you? You would only appreciate it if they showed up with someone you knew. That is why most services that missionaries give are by the invitation of local Mormons. As for heated floors…well, I guess the Mormon missionaries do get some luxury, but that is probably something that all apartments have in some areas. It isn't’t like the missionaries hired a team of construction workers to install the heating systems or anything. But if it comforts you any, Mormon missionaries are supposed to pay for their own missions. If they can’t afford it, their bishop can make an exception, but most Mormons pay for their own missions.
· Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs spread the same message If you study the difference between many historical controversies, (i.e., the difference between communism and democracy), you will find out that many of them originated from the same material. Communism under the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia originated from a misinterpretation of the declaration of independence. The resulting government was so cruel to its citizens that it horrified the only country that noticed at the time (Vietnam, which invaded immediately and set the situation right). My point is, you can only judge something by its results, not by the material it is based off of. Warren Jeffs twists Mormon doctrine to mean things that are never implied by mormons themselves.[list=a]
Originally posted by Quark_666The RLDS and FLDS are often referred to as Mormons and the Mormon Church. There are many others, a distinction must be made when the possibility of misunderstanding may exist.
It's okay to refer to the Mormon Church as the Mormon church.
Originally posted by Quark_666I did a quick search and found the area that I discussed polygamy and the LDS Church in less than 30 seconds. It is not unreasonable for me to expect people that I expect to not be ignoramus to be capable of this. Since doubt as to the level of competence of my fellow posters exists, I will quote myself.
And it is unreasonable to expect somebody to search through ninety six pages of material to find something you wrote. If you want people to read it, just quote yourself.
Originally posted by Regret
Here is the document that caused these splinter groups to leave the LDS church:OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1
To Whom It May Concern:
Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy—
I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.
One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.
There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
Wilford Woodruff
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:
“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.
Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTOThe Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)
It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .
I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .
The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.
The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?
The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .
I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)
Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
Originally posted by Regret
Typically, Mormon is in reference to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS Chruch for short), and we are only barely associated with these groups, and only due to historical origin. The most active splinter group that is an offshoot is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), which has disavowed Joseph Smith's first vision and much of the Book of Mormon, as well as denying that Joseph Smith ever practiced or condoned polygamy. RLDS broke off after Joseph Smith's murder. well before the LDS church ended polygamy.Warren Jeffs is a member of what is called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). This is a splinter group that began ~100 years ago when the LDS Church ended the practice of polygamy. There are three or four of these splinter groups still in existence, that I know of. The only aberrant behavior aside from the polygamous relationships that I have heard them accused of is marrying women young (between 15 and 18 years of age at times), although this young age is not the norm. Typically in these groups the age is at least 18 if not older.
These splinter groups are generally extremely small, consisting of between two or three hundred to one or two thousand followers. They are typically nearly 100% polygamous within each group, a number that far exceeds the number that had been practicing in the LDS Church at the time that polygamy was practiced (30-33% at its peak.)
Originally posted by CreshoskIts clear from your word usage that your intention is merely to troll.
This is a forum is it not; a place to word your opinions and write your views and thoughts. I must have missed it in that KMC rules that the word “ghetto” was taboo or frowned upon and that sarcasm is nonexistent here. I was actually being sarcastic. Do you know what sarcasm is? Why does the word ghetto seem to offend you so? Have you ever been to the ghetto? Well if you haven’t just look for the neighborhood that doesn’t have a Mormon Church in it.
Now as for that website you just plugged -ldschurchtemples-. What was that supposed to show me exactly? That there are monstrosities being build everywhere not just in San Diego. What a shame Mormon money is going to such WASTE.
w w w .irr.org/mit/Are-Mormon-Temples-Christian. h t m l <~~ this is what you should have sent me!
Originally posted by Creshosk
It's pretty clear by this point that your words are full of hatred and ignorance. and your intent is purely to troll that which you OBVIUSLY do not understand.
Hatred--No not hatred. Mormonism has no importance in my life to have me “hate” it. It is not worth my energy to hate it so. I just wanted to get my views and questions posted to see what kind of “sweeping under the rug” answers I get. You are right about one thing though, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND Mormon Cultism whatsoever.
Originally posted by Quark_666
As I mentioned earlier, I generally avoid getting into arguments about my own religion because I tend to be a bit biased, and bias is not a logical approach to a problem.In this case though, I’ll do my best to answer your questions logically. And if I’m being unreasonable…I’m sure someone will correct me.
My point is, you can only judge something by its results, not by the material it is based off of. Warren Jeffs twists Mormon doctrine to mean things that are never implied by mormons themselves.[list=a]
I admire your devotion to your religion and I hope you do not take offense with my own arguments. I am not voicing my opinion to degrade your views whatsoever. That being said here goes…
You wrote, “People who can’t afford tithing simply explain the situation to their bishop.” Do you not see what is wrong with this statement? I guess not. I was raised Mennonite. I never saw my father go to our Pastor and tell him, “We could not give offering this Sunday because _______.” No one should be obligated to put in 10% of their hard earned money into building CASTLE-like structures and making bishops that more richer and no one should be obligated to explain their financial situation with someone WORKING for the LORD.
When I say the word “rich” I meant people well off, middle to high-middle class members, people of that stature. By using the word rich, I did not mean Millionaire. What bothers me the most is that you people are not saying, “In my town or where I live there are temples in the ‘ghetto’ or In my church there are blacks, Mexicans, Asians, etc. or In my temple there are a few people that are not financially stable.” Why am I not hearing this?
I guess the word missionary is used loosely in the Mormon community. The Mennonite church missionaries would go to orphanages (in Mexico) not resort-like places; missionaries stayed in the orphanage not a suite in a 5-star hotel or floor-heated apartments. We would take the orphanage food, clean water, Clothes upon clothes, toys (of course), and a helping hand. There was no vacation factor whatsoever. All the items were donated and the money was raised in rummage sales, donations, et cetera. We did not have to pay $2,000+ for a vacation abroad just to go door to door pestering people to bring themselves and their wallets to church. As for my stepbro’s “mission”, my father refused to pay my step-bros “vacation”, which in turn the bishop came to his house and my dad told him where to go and how to get there if you know what I mean. My stepbro’s real father and numerous well off family members ended up having to pay because if they didn’t he was NOT ALLOWED TO GO per the BISHOP. In my opinion that $2,000 should go to more “Christian-like” obligations. Now, I am not arguing that the Mennonite religion/missionary work is better than your religion/missionary work, but don’t you find that there is something really wrong with Mormonism. Well I guess all religion has something wrong with it in some sense, but I have notice that Mormons seem to sweep many things under the rug and live as if it does not exist.
Joseph Smith started out like Warren Jeffs. Wannabe Prophets twisting the word of God to benefit themselves…you’re right about that -- “originating from the same material”…The apple didn’t fall too far….But why and how does it make it right? Mr. Smith twisted the word of God to benefit himself and Jeffs did as well…so what is the argument? and yet Mormons seem to embrace that fact and make excuses for it. Don’t you see that? Ever since I had the displeasure of knowing Mormons, I now know why atheists have a good argument.
www .irr.org/mit/default. html
www .irr.org/mit/Considering-joining-mormon-church. html <---please visit