Juggernaut vs Silver Surfer

Originally posted by Wynndar
Any perpetuation of the idea that Juggernaut is "unstoppable" is either ignorance of fanboyism. Even classic Juggernaut was stopped, knocked down, and hurt in at least every other appearance. He has a high showing against Thor...he has a high showing against D'Spayre (whose powers conveniently rely on ILLUSION!) Other than that, he's been tossed around and stopped by the Hulk on multiple occasion's, knocked on his ass by Colossus, stopped and pulled to the ground by the Thing...Beat to sh!t by Onslaught....and utterly demolished by purely physical means of Nimrod.

Juggernaut's unstoppability and invulnerability are marginal, they are a hyperbole.

Surfer could defeat him the same way he was beaten by Nimrod he could also use the environment against him. Considering all the experience and versatility of Surfer, how can one honestly think he would have difficulty with one of the most one dimensional characters in Marvel.

Brilliant Post !!!!!!!!!!n 🙂

Supersede means to displace/replace/supplant, and often in reference to replacement of something inferior. To supersede can mean to displace an inferior power i.e. to override. In the context of the subsequent comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might, taken in conjunction with his prior statement that the Celestial power supersedes all, it can be interpreted as the Celestial power overriding Juggernaut's enchantments. I can see why one could think that this constitutes a depowering - but it wouldn't. The Celestial tech was simply more powerful. Either way Juggernaut fell to the Celestial tech. (And I'm not quite sure what the point of that entire aside was anyway.)

As yet still undecided what the outcome of the fight will be.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Supersede means to displace/replace/supplant, and often in reference to replacement of something inferior. To supersede can mean to displace an inferior power i.e. to override. In the context of the subsequent comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might, taken in conjunction with his prior statement that the Celestial power supersedes all, it can be interpreted as the Celestial power overriding Juggernaut's enchantments. I can see why one could think that this constitutes a depowering - but it wouldn't. The Celestial tech was simply more powerful. Either way Juggernaut fell to the Celestial tech. (And I'm not quite sure what the point of that entire aside was anyway.)

As yet still undecided what the outcome of the fight will be.

Precisely what ive been saying all along. Basically a Celestial tech empowered Hulk curbstomped Jugg. Simple as that. No evidence of a depowering whatsoever. That was just speculation stemming from the use of the word supercedes which when you look at the context does nothing to infer a depowerment as opposed to just an empowerment of Hulk, therefore supplanting Juggernaut in terms of relevance to the situation. Good to have you on board X. 😄

This is a very one sided fight...

The point I was making was that celestial tech didn't physically make him stronger but effectively made Juggernaut weaker. Like faerie fire on warcraft 3. Doesn't make you do more damage, it makes your enemy take more damage.

And yes, I would put my chips on Surfer.

jugs can't hurt SS.

Hulk tried he got all the hit he wanted till couldn't hurt SS.
Silver Surfer defeated Abomination like he was shit (when he was drained)

am sure yall heard of Durok? Thor did all he could it did phase him , SS k.O him out. 🙂

as people here having hard time see how much SS can munipate.

Let just say if there was a nuclear war that destroyed many cities , SS can raise his hand and fix everything. (I have seen similar feat)

as for telepathy I don't see why SS couldn't do similar tactic the power cosmic allows him to do just about anything and he is known to have some mental powers.

Let’s just say SS has taken guys who are ranked above Cyt himself.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The point I was making was that celestial tech didn't physically make him stronger but effectively made Juggernaut weaker. Like faerie fire on warcraft 3. Doesn't make you do more damage, it makes your enemy take more damage.

Im confused. If by effective made Jugg weaker you mean it empowered Hulk physically to the point where Jugg was of no consequence then yeah i agree. But if you still mean that Jugg was depowered then theres no evidence in that comic whatsoever that supports that so youre on your own there.

Originally posted by kgkg
Let just say if there was a nuclear war that destroyed many cities , SS can raise his hand and fix everything. (I have seen similar feat)

That would be so awesome to see shock . *hint hint* 😉

~wickerman~

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im confused.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Yes.

Either way noone agrees with you. So whatever you say. If you wish to believe what you do then thats your prerogative. However until you provide evidence which extends beyond a single ambiguous word your claims hold no weight in threads.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way noone agrees with you. So whatever you say. If you wish to believe what you do then thats your prerogative. However until you provide evidence which extends beyond a single ambiguous word your claims hold no weight in threads.

I'm sorry, GS, but you don't speak for everyone, and don't think that you do.

I personally do agree with Swanky. And you're talking about providing proof for our argument, but what about yours? I saw nothing in that scan that proves that Hulk was just empowered physically. So, perhaps you should be the one providing proof as well, instead of just demanding it from Swanky.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I'm sorry, GS, but you don't speak for everyone, and don't think that you do.

I personally do agree with Swanky. And you're talking about providing proof for our argument, but what about yours? I saw nothing in that scan that proves that Hulk was just empowered physically. So, perhaps you should be the one providing proof as well, instead of just demanding it from Swanky.

Youre correct i dont speak for everyone and havent claimed to do so. Ignore my terming.

However if you agree with Swanky then if you wish to continue with this line of argument you'll be needing something considerably more substantial than the word "supersedes".

Both myself and X have made it clear why we believe what we do and have talked about on panel events. Your proof is a single ambiguous word. Not good enough.

The fight was a test of Celestial might. Celestial tech Vs his mystically enhanced power. They fought Hulk started glowing and then he physically overpowered Juggernaut. At this point Apocalypse said the tech supersedes all power but his own. Those two references to the Celestial tech plus the fact that theres was no on panel indication of a depowering of Juggs but an empowering of Hulk means that our interpretation is more conclusive. You have a word which under your interpretation isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

Either way X laid it down just fine:

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Supersede means to displace/replace/supplant, and often in reference to replacement of something inferior. To supersede can mean to displace an inferior power i.e. to override. In the context of the subsequent comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might, taken in conjunction with his prior statement that the Celestial power supersedes all, it can be interpreted as the Celestial power overriding Juggernaut's enchantments. I can see why one could think that this constitutes a depowering - but it wouldn't. The Celestial tech was simply more powerful. Either way Juggernaut fell to the Celestial tech. (And I'm not quite sure what the point of that entire aside was anyway.)

.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre correct i dont speak for everyone and havent claimed to do so. Ignore my terming.

However if you agree with Swanky then if you wish to continue with this line of argument you'll be needing something considerably more substantial than the word "supersedes".

Both myself and X have made it clear why we believe what we do and have talked about on panel events. Your proof is a single ambiguous word. Not good enough.

The fight was a test of Celestial might. Celestial tech Vs his mystically enhanced power. They fought Hulk started glowing and then he physically overpowered Juggernaut. At this point Apocalypse said the tech supersedes all power but his own. Those two references to the Celestial tech plus the fact that theres was no on panel indication of a depowering of Juggs but an empowering of Hulk means that our interpretation is more conclusive. You have a word which under your interpretation isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

Either way X laid it down just fine:

I think the problem here is either I'm not writing it correctly, or you're not seeing what I'm saying.

Hulk was empowered, yes. But his empowerment wasn't just a physical boost in strength. Hulk was empowered with Celestial power. Kinda like what Cyttorak is. A celestial. Hulk was empowered with a different kind of celestial power, clearly one that could override Juggy's enchantment. Thus the terminology "Celestial Tech". If it was just something that made Hulk stronger, it would be called "Make-Hulk-Stronger Tech".

And by overriding Juggy's enchantment, it negated his magical enhancements. Thus depowering.

Now, if Hulk had received the power-up, but Juggy didn't lose his magical enhancements and Hulk still beat him...then yes. I'd agree with you that the suped-up Hulk beat him. But clearly Juggy's power was hindered by Hulk's power-up. So it was really the tech that beat Juggy, not Hulk. Since Juggy has continuously shown to able to pound Hulk.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I think the problem here is either I'm not writing it correctly, or you're not seeing what I'm saying.

Hulk was empowered, yes. But his empowerment wasn't just a physical boost in strength. Hulk was empowered with Celestial power. Kinda like what Cyttorak is. A celestial. Hulk was empowered with a different kind of celestial power, clearly one that could override Juggy's enchantment. Thus the terminology "Celestial Tech". If it was just something that made Hulk stronger, it would be called "Make-Hulk-Stronger Tech".

Cytorrak isnt anything remotely like a Celestial.

There wasnt enough info about the nature of Hulks empowerment for you to get into specifics. Youre just speculating now. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered to the point where he could overcome Juggernauts own enhancements. So lets just leave it at that.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And by overriding Juggy's enchantment, it negated his magical enhancements. Thus depowering.

Now, if Hulk had received the power-up, but Juggy didn't lose his magical enhancements and Hulk still beat him...then yes. I'd agree with you that the suped-up Hulk beat him. But clearly Juggy's power was hindered by Hulk's power-up. So it was really the tech that beat Juggy, not Hulk. Since Juggy has continuously shown to able to pound Hulk.

Again just speculation. You have no evidence to support your claim that Juggernauts abilities were reduced. Nothing at all. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered enough to override Juggs enhancements. That doesnt equate to a depowerment MetalManx. That just means the Celestial tech is superior to the fragment of Cytorraks power bestowed on Juggernaut. Jugg is only as powerful, strong and durable as that fragment allows him to be. The tech coming from beings a few rungs higher than Cytorrak could obviously overcome Juggs mystically derived abilities. Simple as that. Show evidence that Jugg was depowered, that he lost strength/durability. Present your evidence and your claim cant be challenged. We both know you cant do that so lets just leave it at that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cytorrak isnt anything remotely like a Celestial.

There wasnt enough info about the nature of Hulks empowerment for you to get into specifics. Youre just speculating now. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered to the point where he could overcome Juggernauts own enhancements. So lets just leave it at that.

Again just speculation. You have no evidence to support your claim that Juggernauts abilities were reduced. Nothing at all. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered enough to override Juggs enhancements. That doesnt equate to a depowerment MetalManx. That just means the Celestial tech is superior to the fragment of Cytorraks power bestowed on Juggernaut. Jugg is only as powerful, strong and durable as that fragment allows him to be. The tech coming from beings a few rungs higher than Cytorrak could obviously overcome Juggs mystically derived abilities. Simple as that. Show evidence that Jugg was depowered, that he lost strength/durability. Present your evidence and your claim cant be challenged. We both know you cant do that so lets just leave it at that.

Nor do you have the evidence to prove me wrong. Nor do I have the evidence to prove you wrong. And experience tells me that we're not going to convince each other any differently.

So, it seems we have indeed stalemated each other here. Until one of us actually provides evidence, we're both just speculating.

We both know that you can't provide sound evidence for your claim either. So, yes, I agree. Let's just leave it at that.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Nor do you have the evidence to prove me wrong. Nor do I have the evidence to prove you wrong. And experience tells me that we're not going to convince each other any differently.

So, it seems we have indeed stalemated each other here. Until one of us actually provides evidence, [B]we're both just speculating.

We both know that you can't provide sound evidence for your claim either. So, yes, I agree. Let's just leave it at that. [/B]

The scan doesnt indicate through dialogue or through the on panel events that Juggernaut was depowered at all. Thats the speculation.

Im just relating events as they happened. No speculation required for my interpretation fortunately. Juggernaut is referred to as a test of Celestial might therefore discounting any claims of depowerment. (How would Juggernaut be a test if he was going to be depowered?) Juggernaut was winning at first, Hulk started glowing and then he overpowered Juggernaut. Apocalypse watching the battle then talks of how the Celestial power supersedes all but his own. Does that not indicate that the Celestial tech empowered Hulk to the point where he overrided Juggs own enhancements?

Either way believe what you will, we both know that i can take events and references from the battle to support my interpretation whereas your case stems merely from the ambiguous nature of the word "supercedes", your interpretation of that word furthermore isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

So yeah lets leave it at that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The scan doesnt indicate through dialogue or through the on panel events that Juggernaut was depowered at all. Thats the speculation.

Im just relating events as they happened. No speculation required for my interpretation fortunately. Juggernaut is referred to as a test of Celestial might therefore discounting any claims of depowerment. (How would Juggernaut be a test if he was going to be depowered?) Juggernaut was winning at first, Hulk started glowing and then he overpowered Juggernaut. Apocalypse watching the battle then talks of how the Celestial power supersedes all but his own. Does that not indicate that the Celestial tech empowered Hulk to the point where he overrided Juggs own enhancements?

Either way believe what you will, we both know that i cantake events and references from the battle to support my interpretation whereas your case stems merely from the ambiguous nature of the word "supercedes", your interpretation of that word furthermore isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

So yeah lets leave it at that.

I know you won't really take offense to this, GS, but I just felt that it should be said. You're a dick. You don't know everything, and just because you interpret an event one way does not make your word the final saying.

And actually, I apologize for calling you a dick. But for comic book debates, you really annoy me sometime. Which annoys me, cuz I'm being annoyed by someone over the internet. You must be really bad.

Even if you don't think it is, what you're doing is speculation as well. Until Apoc comes around one day and says: "Oh, hey. By the way. That celestial tech in which I outfitted Hulk? Yea, all it did was boost his physical strength up enough to override Juggernaut's magical enchantment. That's all." ...Then all you're doing is speculating as well.

Believe it if you want, that's fine. I don't really care that much anymore.

And please, don't tell me how I feel. That's also rather annoying.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I know you won't really take offense to this, GS, but I just felt that it should be said. You're a dick. You don't know everything, and just because you interpret an event one way does not make your word the final saying.

Youre quite correct. I really couldnt care less what someone on a comic book forum has to say about me. The fact that you're getting worked up over a comic book debate is hilarious and says alot about yourself. My interpretation of something in general isnt the law but its good to know that

a) in this case i dont have to speculate to support my case

b) My interpretation is shared by quite a few others

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And actually, I apologize for calling you a dick. But for comic book debates, you really annoy me sometime. Which annoys me, cuz I'm being annoyed by someone over the internet. You must be really bad.

Not bothered in the slightest. I have no personal connection with you to be bothered by what you say about me. Youre just words on my PC screen. People have differing opinions on forums its just how it is. For you to get worked up is absurd.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Even if you don't think it is, what you're doing is speculation as well. Until Apoc comes around one day and says: "Oh, hey. By the way. That celestial tech in which I outfitted Hulk? Yea, all it did was boost his physical strength up enough to override Juggernaut's magical enchantment. That's all." ...Then all you're doing is speculating as well.

As far as we saw on panel, a Hulk empowered by Celestial tech overpowered Juggernaut. Thats what we know for sure. You're the one speculating on the nature of the battle not myself. As far as im concerned Hulk received a better power up then the one Jugg is privy to and thats that. Wheres the speculation in that? Apocalypse said Jugg was a test for the techs might, Hulk glowed he won. You'll hear no talk of dampening fields or depowerments from me. Why? Because they werent mentioned or suggested in any way, shape or form.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Believe it if you want, that's fine. I don't really care that much
anymore.

Cool.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And please, don't tell me how I feel. That's also rather annoying.

Cant see where i did that, however if i did and you find it annoying tough sh*t. Its a forum deal with it. 🙂

It was however unintentional if i did do it although i cant see where i did. But yeah whatever. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre quite correct. I really couldnt care less what someone on a comic book forum has to say about me. The fact that you're getting worked up over a comic book debate is hilarious and says alot about yourself. My interpretation of something in general isnt the law but its good to know that

a) in this case i dont have to speculate to support my case

b) My interpretation is shared by quite a few others

Not bothered in the slightest. I have no personal connection with you to be bothered by what you say about me. Youre just words on my PC screen. People have differing opinions on forums its just how it is. For you to get worked up is absurd.

As far as we saw on panel, a Hulk empowered by Celestial tech overpowered Juggernaut. Thats what we know for sure. You're the one speculating on the nature of the battle not myself. As far as im concerned Hulk received a better power up then the one Jugg is privy to and thats that. Wheres the speculation in that? Apocalypse said Jugg was a test for the techs might, Hulk glowed he won. You'll hear no talk of dampening fields or depowerments from me. Why? Because they werent mentioned or suggested in any way, shape or form.

Cool.

Cant see where i did that, however if i did and you find it annoying tough sh*t. Its a forum deal with it. 🙂

It was however unintentional if i did do it although i cant see where i did. But yeah whatever. 😄

Again, I do apologize about earlier. I'm studying for a big test, so I'm just a bit preoccupied (I know I shouldn't be on the forums, but I'm a glutton for punishment), and got annoyed more easily than I should've. I'm usually the last person in the world to get worked up for something so mundane.

You're right. Apoc never said that the tech mystically empowered Hulk to override Juggy's enchanment. Nor did he say that the tech simply upgraded his strength. That's all I'm trying to say. We both have different, yet equal interpretations on the event. I see it one way, you see it the other. Simply because it was never actually stated straightforwardly.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Again, I do apologize about earlier. I'm studying for a big test, so I'm just a bit preoccupied (I know I shouldn't be on the forums, but I'm a glutton for punishment), and got annoyed more easily than I should've. I'm usually the last person in the world to get worked up for something so mundane.

Nah its cool. I mean admittedly i can find some people annoying on here but you should never lose it. Trollings the way forward 😄

Originally posted by Metalmanx
You're right. Apoc never said that the tech mystically empowered Hulk to override Juggy's enchanment. Nor did he say that the tech simply upgraded his strength. That's all I'm trying to say. We both have different, yet equal interpretations on the event. I see it one way, you see it the other. Simply because it was never actually stated straightforwardly.

Well we've both had our say and this issue isnt entirely relevant to this thread anyway. So lets let other people make up their minds based on whats been said and just leave it at that.