Originally posted by GalacticStormYah, when they took off, he had her in a chokehold, most of the way to the sun. I laughed through most of Sacrifice at how Superman made most of the heros look weak and slow footed and minded.
Didnt Superman chokehold her off the planet lol. I cant remember?
Point is, a good 16 pages of battle, that took place from Earth to sun and back, took less than the time it takes light to move one way. Like 10 or 11 of which, take place after landing again.
Coupla points here...
1. Seems to me flight speed is not the same as - and probably faster than - reflex speed, if for no other reason that one has time to accelerate in flight; so Superman and Wonder Woman getting to the sun and back in so short a time highlights flight speed but not (necessarily) reflex speed. Plus, as I've read on many a post/site, Superman and WW don't actually do much fighting at "superspeed." Flash does cuz he's Flash, but the others: they may be quick, but super reflex speed appears to have limited deployment.
2. Possibly a reason for the above is the limitation of speed in an atmosphere. Is this a self-imposed limitation, to minimize collateral damage? Or is it an actual limit, imposed by (eg) friction with the air, something Flash can avoid due to the Speed Force?
Personally, I like seeing these limitations. If nothing else, it makes for more interesting confrontations, such as posed by this thread.
And just for the hell of it, when the space shuttle enters our atmosphere, coming down, it's moving way faster than Mach 10. I'm not sure if that limitation is "really" legit...probably something plot-devised, no?
Originally posted by MindshipYou're also ignoring the fact they fight for another 10 pages after getting to the sun and back.
Coupla points here...1. Seems to me flight speed is not the same as - and probably faster than - reflex speed, if for no other reason that one has time to accelerate in flight; so Superman and Wonder Woman getting to the sun and back in so short a time highlights flight speed but not (necessarily) reflex speed. Plus, as I've read on many a post/site, Superman and WW don't actually do much fighting at "superspeed." Flash does cuz he's Flash, but the others: they may be quick, but super reflex speed appears to have limited deployment.
Originally posted by Juntai
You're also ignoring the fact they fight for another 10 pages after getting to the sun and back.
And the ENTIRE thing took less than 2 minutes.
This shows land speed as well as reaction time, far above and beyond the norm.. They were only fighting for about 6 pages before landing back on Earth to finish the fight.
I guess when someone is choking the crapolla out of you near the sun...yeah, I guess I'd be hustling too.
Originally posted by MindshipSo in less than 2 minutes, they fought on Earth for a page or two.. went to the sun and fought.. came back.. and fought on land for the rest of the bulk of the fight.... in less than 1/4 of the time it takes LIGHT to go ONE WAY...
I guess when someone is choking the crapolla out of you near the sun...yeah, I guess I'd be hustling too.
Let's see...if someone can tell me (eg) how many punches or moves were done by WW and S in the <2min's they were fighting, maybe I can calculate average reflex speed...hoover
Of course, if he was just choking her - which is sorta static, not dynamic, like punching - then maybe reflex speed was not so quick, or rather, not illustrated here.
Originally posted by MindshipObviously the reflexes wouldn't be based on amount of punches thrown, but rather on the fact they are seeing and adapting to eachothers attacks on the battlefield at the aformentioned nearly 10 times the speed of light or more. To fight and sustain and react at this level of speed would require this level of reflexes.
Let's see...if someone can tell me (eg) how many punches or moves were done by WW and S in the <2min's they were fighting, maybe I can calculate average reflex speed...hoover
Originally posted by Juntai
Obviously the reflexes wouldn't be based on amount of punches thrown, but rather on the fact they are seeing and adapting to eachothers attacks on the battlefield at the aformentioned nearly 10 times the speed of light or more. To fight and sustain and react at this level of speed would require this level of reflexes.
I dunno. Flying to the sun at 10c is one thing, doesn't necessarily mean their limbs are going that fast...that's why punching as opposed to choking is important, number of moves per unit time. I've never read this comic, so I don't know what the battle was like.
And besides, I thought Supes was limited to 0.1c?
Originally posted by Mindship10 or 11 of the 16 pages were fighting on Earth though. The flying through space and back was momentary at best. He rushed her on the first page of the fight, carried her to the sun where they fought, [she was also using Kryptonite to dampen his power..]they landed back on Earth by the end of the 4th page. Page 5 and 6 were a splash of giant crater her body created after landing. There for the next 10 or 11 pages between her and where Max said it had took 1 minute and 54 seconds from start to where the fight was, was entirely blows thrown and adapted to inside the Earth's atmosphere.
I dunno. Flying to the sun at 10c is one thing, doesn't necessarily mean their limbs are going that fast...that's why punching as opposed to choking is important, number of moves per unit time. I've never read this comic, so I don't know what the battle was like.And besides, I thought Supes was limited to 0.1c?
So sounds like the serious dukin' it out was on Earth; doesn't sound like a lot of moves-per-unit-time was happening en route to Sol. All I've seen of the actual fighting while flying was 1) he's choking her, 2) he starts frying her with heat vision, and 3) she does to him what Supes did to Darkseid (thumb over eyes). I'm sure she was reacting quite quickly -probably with superspeed (>Mach 21?, they werent in an atmosphere)- but IMO it doesnt sound like reflex speed was matching flight speed.
Originally posted by Mindship
Let's see...if someone can tell me (eg) how many punches or moves were done by WW and S in the <2min's they were fighting, maybe I can calculate average reflex speed...hooverOf course, if he was just choking her - which is sorta static, not dynamic, like punching - then maybe reflex speed was not so quick, or rather, not illustrated here.
Wonder Woman was good and smart enough to use Superman's powers against him while barley holding back. She predicted when he was using his hearing and used it for her advantage to cripple him.
Originally posted by Juntai
10 or 11 of the 16 pages were fighting on Earth though. The flying through space and back was momentary at best. He rushed her on the first page of the fight, carried her to the sun where they fought, [she was also using Kryptonite to dampen his power..]they landed back on Earth by the end of the 4th page. Page 5 and 6 were a splash of giant crater her body created after landing. There for the next 10 or 11 pages between her and where Max said it had took 1 minute and 54 seconds from start to where the fight was, was entirely blows thrown and adapted to inside the Earth's atmosphere.
[The fight does go on after he said that, for another couple of pages.. but him saying that is indeed the marker how fast of speeds they are capable of.]
Don't forget that once back one earth she blacked out for half a second. Which shows her recovery rate and Superman used his ice breathe to freeze her and she got out of that quickly enough to cripple his ears.
Originally posted by MindshipRight, but the earth-to-sun and back, was only like a third or fourth of the fight or so. Making it like.. a 40 second or something feat of the total.
So sounds like the serious dukin' it out was on Earth; doesn't sound like a lot of moves-per-unit-time was happening en route to Sol. All I've seen of the actual fighting while flying was 1) he's choking her, 2) he starts frying her with heat vision, and 3) she does to him what Supes did to Darkseid (thumb over eyes). I'm sure she was reacting quite quickly -probably with superspeed (>Mach 21?, they werent in an atmosphere)- but IMO it doesnt sound like reflex speed was matching flight speed.
You're completely igoring that fact, that it took place in space AND A MAJORITY ON LAND, at roughly 10 times the speed of light or more. She was blocking heat vision wither her bracelets and dodging it. They were close-quarters trading kicks and punches for most of the fight, dodging, moving, blocking, adapting, at this level of speed.
You're taking it as if the trip to the sun was the entire 2 minute fight, but that was the smallest part of the rather long fight.
Originally posted by LethalFemmeTrue. But she was also using Kryptonite. So don't let that holding back claim fool you too much. She was doing nearly everything in her power to stop him.
Wonder Woman was good and smart enough to use Superman's powers against him while barley holding back. She predicted when he was using his hearing and used it for her advantage to cripple him.
Don't forget that once back one earth she blacked out for half a second. Which shows her recovery rate and Superman used his ice breathe to freeze her and she got out of that quickly enough to cripple his ears.
To have been trading blows at 10c for even a minute would entail (nope, not gonna calculate this one) probably something like millions of punches/kicks/etc...of course this also ignores relativistic problems, let alone ignoring what limitations have been set for the characters previously (so much for Mach 10 or 21 or even Mach 10,000)...just to be able to "see" heat vision coming implies that Diana is using some kind of superluminal sense, since the light from the heat vision is moving no faster than the beams themselves.
If this is the case, then Diana is not limited to Mach 21, and, well, so much for trying to minimize collateral damage.
In which case we can readdress the topic of this thread: can Diana react faster than the nerve impulse in her opponents can move? If Juntai is intepreting the Earth-bound fighting correctly (and I will give you that benefit of the doubt, since I wasn't there), then the answer is yes. In fact, if Diana can fight even at just lightspeed, no one but Superman or the Flash could tackle her.
In fact: since Diana is based on magic, one could argue she is immune to relativistic effects, while Superman is not.
Well, DC, put That in yer blender and puree..
Also, not sure if you noticed it, but someone posted a few pages back, of Wonder Woman chasing Jesse Quick to the barrier of the Speed Force, and lassoing her. She was trying to catch her before she went through the barrier because it makes you simply become lost in the speed force. Not sure how she did that without tapping the speed force, but yea... it happened, I guess. lol.
Originally posted by MindshipYep, but she was also dampening Superman's power with Kryptonite. She couldn't even really react to him properly until she had it out and in her possession to wield against him.. Leading me to believe Superman is undeterminedly faster than she is. The feats to the sun and back were "mostly" belonging to Superman.. I would assume they did slow down after this, since she pulled the Kryptonite in space, but the fact remains the bulk of the fight is on the ground, in under 2 minutes. It's pretty undeniable still that she's far beyond the mach 21 mark, in and out of a vaccum. That's the main point here.
To have been trading blows at 10c for even a minute would entail (nope, not gonna calculate this one) probably something like millions of punches/kicks/etc...of course this also ignores relativistic problems, let alone ignoring what limitations have been set for the characters previously (so much for Mach 10 or 21 or even Mach 10,000)...just to be able to "see" heat vision coming implies that Diana is using some kind of superluminal sense, since the light from the heat vision is moving no faster than the beams themselves.If this is the case, then Diana is not limited to Mach 21, and, well, so much for trying to minimize collateral damage.
In which case we can readdress the topic of this thread: can Diana react faster than the nerve impulse in her opponents can move? If Juntai is intepreting the Earth-bound fighting correctly (and I will give you that benefit of the doubt, since I wasn't there), then the answer is yes. In fact, if Diana can fight even at just lightspeed, no one but Superman or the Flash could tackle her.
In fact: since Diana is based on magic, one could argue she is immune to relativistic effects, while Superman is not.
Well, DC, put That in yer blender and puree..