Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

Originally posted by tiakocom
this debate can never be resolved...simple fact is people will never accept phoenix to be that powerfull whereas other are, quite easy solution really contact marvel and ask them exactly wat the PF is suppose to be...cuz right now everyone is jus goin by their own views

We're not arguing power, though. There are people still traumatized by GS's essays who are intent on destroying everything Phoenix, but that's a poor view to take. I don't think Jean Grey IS that powerful, and I took the lead in arguing that point against GS. But I don't deny the role the Phoenix Force plays in Creation. It has nothing to do with Jean Grey and whether or not she can beat Galactus!.

Originally posted by demigawd
We're not arguing power, though. There are people still traumatized by GS's essays who are intent on destroying everything Phoenix, but that's a poor view to take. I don't think Jean Grey IS that powerful, and I took the lead in arguing that point against GS. But I don't deny the role the Phoenix Force plays in Creation. It has nothing to do with Jean Grey and whether or not she can beat Galactus!.

traumatised 😆 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by tiakocom
this debate can never be resolved...simple fact is people will never accept phoenix to be that powerfull whereas other are, quite easy solution really contact marvel and ask them exactly wat the PF is suppose to be...cuz right now everyone is jus goin by their own views

the only answer I think.

they won't know. 😄

<<I see what you're saying Leo, but the Phoenix Force predates life as well. It's the life force of the living and the unborn, retroactive to the dawn of creation.>>

and here is the crux of it. gs would argue that the pf is a manifestation of the toaa's power. you are implying the same thing -- ie -- zero degrees of seperation. toaa --> pf

with this: <<1. TOAA created blueprints for all creation and loaded them all up in a package that he called "The Phoenix Force".>>

demi appears to be saying the same thing.

i'm saying toaa created the multiverse THEN put life in it (or let it evolve on its own) and that from THAT, pf was born (again, perhaps at toaa's behest?) i don't think pf predates creation at all -- or even life.

you say: toaa --> pf
i say: toaa --> life --> pf

degree of seperation from the toaa is the difference.

once in existence, (perhaps allowed to exist because toaa LIKED what he saw and wanted it to continue?) it was appointed by toaa to go about its task of promoting the life cycle and was granted access to ALL life force present and future. again, i still don't buy the fact that life NEEDS the pf to survive but the obverse IS certainly true.

i also don't subscribe to demi's all-encompassing theory. i don't think a 'force' and a 'manifestation' are needed. by manifesting in the physical world and taking a host, it becomes vulnerable - though the force itself appears to have been vulnerable on a number of occasions, or at least subject to pain and attack. i really don't think it needs any further explanation. in its natural state it promotes the cycle, at times it manifests on our plane for whatever reason. it is a part of the multiversal structure, not above or outside, like lt is not above or outside, BECAUSE it was derived from the life WITHIN the multiverse.

i know you think i'm hung up on the word derived, but it really is at the heart of why we see this differently.

agreed Leo, you seem a cool guy

🤘

Originally posted by leonidas
<<I see what you're saying Leo, but the Phoenix Force predates life as well. It's the life force of the living and the unborn, retroactive to the dawn of creation.>>

and here is the crux of it. gs would argue that the pf is a manifestation of the toaa's power. you are implying the same thing -- ie -- zero degrees of seperation. toaa --> pf

with this: <<1. TOAA created blueprints for all creation and loaded them all up in a package that he called "The Phoenix Force".>>

demi appears to be saying the same thing.

i'm saying toaa created the multiverse THEN put life in it (or let it evolve on its own) and that from THAT, pf was born (again, perhaps at toaa's behest?) i don't think pf predates creation at all -- or even life.

you say: toaa --> pf
i say: toaa --> life --> pf

degree of seperation from the toaa is the difference.

The reason I say that TOAA created PF before creating the multiverse is that each universe creates a big bang, or a Phoenix Force (as Reed said). If the big bang creates a manifestation of the Phoenix at its inception, then the Phoenix must predate life in that universe.

The White Hot Room is separate from the multiverse - it's separate from life. It's less logical to assume that the White Hot Room spontaneously appeared the moment the first living thing was created and more logical to assume that the White Hot Room is the origin point for the manifestations of Phoenix that create each universe.

It just seems to fit the overall picture better. What's your reasoning for saying that TOAA created life directly and PF was the side result of that?

once in existence, (perhaps allowed to exist because toaa LIKED what he saw and wanted it to continue?) it was appointed by toaa to go about its task of promoting the life cycle and was granted access to ALL life force present and future. again, i still don't buy the fact that life NEEDS the pf to survive but the obverse IS certainly true.
[quote]

So what, then, is the purpose of the Phoenix Force to you? If it is the energy of creation, then doesn't that suggest that it was there first, that it was the stuff of creation? If not, then why does it exist at all? To say that the PF is the byproduct of creation, or some kind of simultaneous effect marginalizes the Force and makes it generally unnecessary.

[quote]
i also don't subscribe to demi's all-encompassing theory. i don't think a 'force' and a 'manifestation' are needed. by manifesting in the physical world and taking a host, it becomes vulnerable - though the force itself appears to have been vulnerable on a number of occasions, or at least subject to pain and attack. i really don't think it needs any further explanation. in its natural state it promotes the cycle, at times it manifests on our plane for whatever reason. it is a part of the multiversal structure, not above or outside, like lt is not above or outside, BECAUSE it was derived from the life WITHIN the multiverse.

But then that ignores the continuity of the White Hot Room. The White Hot room is outside of the multiverse - it's where the Phoenix Force derives. How does the existence of the White Hot Room fit into your view of things?

The reason why I say that Phoenix manifestations are necessary is because different universes have a different fate for its Phoenix. If it were a single force, its destruction would threaten the multiverse. But we see What If's where the Phoenix Force is corrupted, alternate realities where it's destroyed, and it hasn't had multiversal effects. We've also seen in Morrison's run the idea of a "they" coming from the White Hot Room. They implies a collective. The idea that there are multiple avatars, one for each universe also necessitates a Phoenix per universe against which all power for that universe is drawn.

All the signs point to the need for a universal phoenix beholden to a Phoenix Force that is beyond the multiverse. What is your case for it being otherwise?

*edit* I just look at it this way (to clarify a bit more) - if the Phoenix Force were singular in nature, and it were damaged, it would not be able to do its job, which is multiversal in scope. That, to me, backs up the notion of a "they" that appeared throughout the recent Phoenix arcs, and that further backs up my belief in a manifestation that is beholden to a greater Phoenix Force that exists independently from the multiverse.

<<The reason I say that TOAA created PF before creating the multiverse is that each universe creates a big bang, or a Phoenix Force (as Reed said). If the big bang creates a manifestation of the Phoenix at its inception, then the Phoenix must predate life in that universe.>>

but it couldn't since it manifests FROM life.

<<It's less logical to assume that the White Hot Room spontaneously appeared the moment the first living thing was created and more logical to assume that the White Hot Room is the origin point for the manifestations of Phoenix that create each universe.>>

i disagree. the white hot room could have been created by the pf AFTER its inception. your description goes against what is clearly stated in the handbook, that being it was derived from life.

<<What's your reasoning for saying that TOAA created life directly and PF was the side result of that?>>

this: ". . . the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings." but i'm not saying toaa created life directly. could be simply that he let it evolve.

as far as the rest of your post demi -- i think i understand a little better what you are trying to say. your 'egg' theory is too . . . muddled for my liking though. your manifestation would then have a manifestation if it took a host. so the pf has a manifestation in each universe which would in turn have a manifestation any time it took a host. not exactly occam's razor . . . it is also supposing something that has never been shown.

the problem with fitting in one theory is that no 'one theory' was ever considered from the beginning. there really is no one theory that can be made to fit things when different writers have altered continuity and shown things that have screwed up what others have done.

all that said, your theory DOES seem to fit most of the facts. i am NOT a phoenix expert so i can't come up with a lot of things to challenge you on. i guess i can see the (larger) pf granting a portion of itself to an individual universe. it just . . . i don't know. i don't like making things up that have not been shown to be true. and no distinction has been made in books to show 2 phoenix entities.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<What's your reasoning for saying that TOAA created life directly and PF was the side result of that?>>

this: ". . . the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings." but i'm not saying toaa created life directly. could be simply that he let it evolve.

Here's the thing with that, though - the description of the Phoenix Force appears to be its definition for the Phoenix manifestation. It calls it a *universal* force of life. What that suggests is that this Handbook is only looking at the Phoenix's role within the 616 universe. It doesn't actually describe the larger multiversal role - that leaves its definition open-ended. My theory covers the broader omniversal scope of creation - the Handbook's description fits in nicely at a smaller universal level.

This definition really speaks more to the Phoenix consciousness. when the Phoenix possesses Jean - what is talking? It's the consciousness of that Phoenix manifestation. That consciousness is derived from the psyches of all living beings in that universe. The White Hot Room, being apart from that, governs multiversal life. It's really the best explanation for how Phoenix can die in some realities and not others, without the multiversal function of the Phoenix being affected. It's also the explanation for how the Phoenix wouldn't know its own role until Galactus explained it...it's consciousness is limited to the universal living beings. The higher connection is derived from the "They" that exists in the White Hot Room.

If you accept the definition you printed above without interpretation, it doesn't explain the "they" who gives orders to the Phoenix Avatars in both Phoenix Endsong and Here Comes Tomorrow. It also doesn't explain the notion that Phoenix is also going to burn away the universe when it no longer works and start anew. It wouldn't be able to do that if it destroyed the universe....because it would also cease to exist. A universal Phoenix manifestation's consciousness can be derived from living psyche, but it HAS to be independent of life in order to carry out its role and burn away the universe and start again.

<<It's less logical to assume that the White Hot Room spontaneously appeared the moment the first living thing was created and more logical to assume that the White Hot Room is the origin point for the manifestations of Phoenix that create each universe.>>

i disagree. the white hot room could have been created by the pf AFTER its inception. your description goes against what is clearly stated in the handbook, that being it was derived from life.

If it's an energy source that is the stuff of all life, then how could it have derived from life? If it was there at the beginning of the universe, before there was life...how could it have been derived from life?

as far as the rest of your post demi -- i think i understand a little better what you are trying to say. your 'egg' theory is too . . . muddled for my liking though. your manifestation would then have a manifestation if it took a host. so the pf has a manifestation in each universe which would in turn have a manifestation any time it took a host. not exactly occam's razor . . . it is also supposing something that has never been shown.

But it has been shown, that's what necessitated the theory in the first place. The concept of the "they" in two separate storylines, the destruction of the Phoenix Force in alternate timelines, the multiple avatars that come from and go to the White Hot room, the lack of self-awareness the Phoenix has, the White Hot Room itself - it all points to the same conclusion - that there isn't just one manifestation.

the problem with fitting in one theory is that no 'one theory' was ever considered from the beginning. there really is no one theory that can be made to fit things when different writers have altered continuity and shown things that have screwed up what others have done.

True, but since canon is canon, we have to work backwards and come up with a theory that will satisfy all of the showings we've seen.

all that said, your theory DOES seem to fit most of the facts. i am NOT a phoenix expert so i can't come up with a lot of things to challenge you on. i guess i can see the (larger) pf granting a portion of itself to an individual universe. it just . . . i don't know. i don't like making things up that have not been shown to be true. and no distinction has been made in books to show 2 phoenix entities.

We've seen far more than two.

Leo, I think your missing the concept that Phoenix is also the lifeforce of the unborn. It's the lifeforce of the living and those yet to live, meaning it predates life as well as encompasses life. The Phoenix Force is the lifeforce of all things that live or will live, ever. It's derived from life because it embodies the lifeforce of anything that will ever live. It's not simply a byproduct of creation, it's roll is by design.

It's the prime source of life designated by TOAA.

Anything that has substance in Marvel is a product of TOAA's initial will, and has a place in the grand design.

And Whirly, your not fooling anybody with that "Splatterpuss" alias, homie.

<<It's the consciousness of that Phoenix manifestation. That consciousness is derived from the psyches of all living beings in that universe.>>

how can it be if THAT univseral manifestation is supposed to have kicked off the big bang of THAT universe? your saying the manifestation exists BEFORE life in the universe, which can't be the case since as you point out the universeal aspect of the pf is derived from the life force of the living beings.

<<universal Phoenix manifestation's consciousness can be derived from living psyche, but it HAS to be independent of life in order to carry out its role and burn away the universe and start again.>>

that's a paradox.

<< it's an energy source that is the stuff of all life, then how could it have derived from life? If it was there at the beginning of the universe, before there was life...how could it have been derived from life?>>

that's why i'm saying life came first.

<<ue, but since canon is canon, we have to work backwards and come up with a theory that will satisfy all of the showings we've seen.>>

HA! you mean YOU have to work backwards so YOU can be satisfied. heheh. again demi, your theory seems to mostly hold water (but so did aspects of gs's argument. one aspect of his point was that pf came straight from the toaa. you are essentially saying the same thing after arguing that there is no evidence of that. it's why i can't subscribe to the theory wholeheartedly. too much is speculatory. perhaps in lieu of the new definition, new answers will come to light. i don't like force feeding a theory into place to cover what is essentially a massive continuity nightmare.

<<Leo, I think your missing the concept that Phoenix is also the lifeforce of the unborn. It's the lifeforce of the living and those yet to live, meaning it predates life as well as encompasses life.>>

then where did it come from? after arguing it has no relationship to toaa, you and demi BOTH seem to be saying now that it is DIRECTLY related to him.

toaa --> pf

somewhere gs is smiling . . .
😛

See the PF is supposed to end a universal Cycle and help evolution and certain &#8220;race&#8221; ie. In marvel universe the humans will someday replace the universe. Some will become the &#8220;New Galactus&#8221; of the new Universes etc. So the PF always exists as a power source that will guide &#8220;creation evolution from cycle to cycle universe to universe. The avatars are the &#8220;so called chosen ones&#8221; of certain universe to do the task.

And each Avatar can gain power from &#8220;universe life force&#8221;-------- so how can it exist before the Universe? Maybe it borrows the remaining life energy of the previous universe.

ie " Galactus " who combined with his universe to form a new one.

Mike Marts -- A sequel to PHOENIX: ENDSONG seems almost a certain thing at this point. Stay tuned for details.

I wonder what that will do . . . I wonder if GS will rise again, like a phoenix. . .

So Whirly was right all this time.......

Originally posted by leonidas
<<It's the consciousness of that Phoenix manifestation. That consciousness is derived from the psyches of all living beings in that universe.>>

how can it be if THAT univseral manifestation is supposed to have kicked off the big bang of THAT universe? your saying the manifestation exists BEFORE life in the universe, which can't be the case since as you point out the universeal aspect of the pf is derived from the life force of the living beings.

Which is why I say that a manifestation is necessary. The Phoenix Force, out of the White Hot Room, has its own consciousness. It's the explanation for the "they" and the reason why some Phoenices know more than others. The Phoenix manifestation assumes a consciousness with the development of life. Its consciousness becomes more sophisicated with the spread of life. Jean, being the 616th Phoenix, still had to rely on information from the other Phoenices to find out the will of "they". That shows an independent consciousness that takes orders from a higher consciousness. And it shows more than one consciousness, too. Does that make sense?

<<universal Phoenix manifestation's consciousness can be derived from living psyche, but it HAS to be independent of life in order to carry out its role and burn away the universe and start again.>>

that's a paradox.

Only if you try to make it fit into your concept of there just being one Phoenix Force without manifestations. It's not a paradox in my concept.

<< it's an energy source that is the stuff of all life, then how could it have derived from life? If it was there at the beginning of the universe, before there was life...how could it have been derived from life?>>

that's why i'm saying life came first.

But the problem with that is, as already cited, the Big Bang is what creates the Phoenix Force, like Reed himself said. There is no life then...so how can the Big Bang be the Phoenix Force? And how can the Phoenix Force carry on the task of re-creating the universe if, within that void between universes, there can be no life?

<<ue, but since canon is canon, we have to work backwards and come up with a theory that will satisfy all of the showings we've seen.>>

HA! you mean YOU have to work backwards so YOU can be satisfied. heheh.

Well, I'm not satisfied until everything makes sense and fits. You don't strike me as the kind of person who would think otherwise, either. I KNOW that writers don't think about this stuff as deeply as we are...but aren't we enjoying this?

again demi, your theory seems to mostly hold water (but so did aspects of gs's argument. one aspect of his point was that pf came straight from the toaa. you are essentially saying the same thing after arguing that there is no evidence of that.

You've misunderstood what both I and GS have argued. GS argued that Jean was one with Phoenix and Phoenix was an ASPECT of TOAA, therefore Jean represents an aspect of TOAA. I totally reject that notion. What I was arguing against was that Jean Grey reflected the will or knowledge of TOAA. That's not the same as saying that TOAA had a direct hand in creating the Phoenix Force, which IS what I'm arguing now.

GS says TOAA = PF = Jean Grey
Demi says TOAA ->PF <> Jean Grey

it's why i can't subscribe to the theory wholeheartedly. too much is speculatory. perhaps in lieu of the new definition, new answers will come to light. i don't like force feeding a theory into place to cover what is essentially a massive continuity nightmare.

But the thing is, I'm not inventing a theory out of thin air and saying that it fits. There's specific comic book evidence that I've cited that creates the evidence that I then fit into the larger picture. Like the "they" and the differing knowledge levels of each universe's Phoenix, and the idea that a Phoenix and outlive a universe AND be its Big Bang, during both times there being no life. There are all clues that lend themselves to these theories...so it's not as speculatory as you make it out to be.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
So Whirly was right all this time.......

You're so lame, Whirly. 😛

Originally posted by leonidas
then where did it come from? after arguing it has no relationship to toaa, you and demi BOTH seem to be saying now that it is DIRECTLY related to him.

Everything Marvel has a relationship to the TOAA, leo, spoken or unspoken. I simply disagreed with GS's kaballah assertions and placing Jean herself at the top rung of the hierarchy.

The Phoenix Force, itself, the actual energy source, is the lifeforce of everything in Marvel that lives. And since TOAA created and empowered everything Marvel, then yes, the Phoenix Force comes from TOAA, because everything Marvel originates from TOAA.

I'm not going so far as to say it's an aspect of TOAA in the same way The Source or the Word, etc. are in DC, though it suits a parallel role, I'll just say it's a source of power designated by TOAA to serve a particular role in creation, and it's role just happens to be the energy that empowers any being that will ever live in the Marvel Multiverse, which places it's importance right behind TOAA.

And you still seem to be missing the point over the term "derived", leo, because the same bio also states that the Phoenix Force is the lifeforce of the living and the unborn, meaning it empowers beings that haven't yet lived but potentially will, as well as beings that do. Phoenix is derived from the living and the unborn, meaning it not only embodies the living, but also predates the living, because it also embodies those that are yet to be born. It fuels those that live and those that will live.

In the beginning, before life was created (born), TOAA had to designate a bastion of power that would sustain life from inception to cessation, and that power, sadly, happens to be the Phoenix Force. The life energy that goes into any newly born being in Marvel, any being that will become alive, retroactive to the dawn of existence, is empowered by the Phoenix Force. It's right there in the bio, and it's not really given to interpretation in as much as taking one part of it and not taking into account another part of it.

Yes, it's derived from life, but it's also derived from the unborn, meaning those that potentially will live as well as those that do.

And yes, I know I rephrased the same sentiment at least 5-7 times in this post. 😆

He just wanted to get the point across 😆

<<But the problem with that is, as already cited, the Big Bang is what creates the Phoenix Force, like Reed himself said. There is no life then...so how can the Big Bang be the Phoenix Force? And how can the Phoenix Force carry on the task of re-creating the universe if, within that void between universes, there can be no life?>>

because it draws on POTENTIAL life from the future. as ill has said so many times . . . 😛

<<Well, I'm not satisfied until everything makes sense and fits. You don't strike me as the kind of person who would think otherwise, either. I KNOW that writers don't think about this stuff as deeply as we are...but aren't we enjoying this?>>

✅

and it's too bad they DON'T spend as much time. make things a lot easier . . . 😄

<<He just wanted to get the point across>>

i gathered . . .

so basically you claim the terms: "the Phoenix Force is the lifeforce of the living and the unborn" because it allows pf to have existed before life was created, hence it takes precedence over the terms: "derived from living beings," which indicates to me life must have come first. might as well ask did toaa start the universe and PLAN for life, or did he start it and let it go where it might-- ie -- did he grant his 'creation/multiverse' freewill? you're saying life was destined to exist, i prefer to think freewill ruled. as such, when life came about, pf came after.

holy crap -- that's too damn deep for a comicbook discussion . . .

doh

s'cool, though.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<But the problem with that is, as already cited, the Big Bang is what creates the Phoenix Force, like Reed himself said. There is no life then...so how can the Big Bang be the Phoenix Force? And how can the Phoenix Force carry on the task of re-creating the universe if, within that void between universes, there can be no life?>>

because it draws on POTENTIAL life from the future. as ill has said so many times . . . 😛

hahaha...yes, that's right! But how does that fit in with YOUR explanation? Hmm? Or are you saying that the Phoenix consciousness derives from potential life too? And if you ARE saying that, then why is it such a leap to believe that the Phoenix consciousness is not dependent on the actual existence of life because the *potential* for life always exists, whether realized or not?

so basically you claim the terms: "the Phoenix Force is the lifeforce of the living and the unborn" because it allows pf to have existed before life was created, hence it takes precedence over the terms: "derived from living beings," which indicates to me life must have come first. might as well ask did toaa start the universe and PLAN for life, or did he start it and let it go where it might-- ie -- did he grant his 'creation/multiverse' freewill? you're saying life was destined to exist, i prefer to think freewill ruled. as such, when life came about, pf came after.

My guess is, TOAA, being TOAA, had life in mind all along when he started the grand project called the multiverse. In all religions, gods put the value of life over everything else. So I don't think life, or the Phoenix Force, was an unplanned side effect (nothing can really be unplanned when you're omnipotent and omniscient).

Besides, my theory doesn't exclude freewill at all. Like I said in my grand theory - TOAA imprinted the designs for the universe in each PF-derived "egg". The designs show how the universe will look and function, but who will live there and how they will treat it is something TOAA left to them.

Originally posted by demigawd
hahaha...yes, that's right! But how does that fit in with YOUR explanation? Hmm? Or are you saying that the Phoenix consciousness derives from potential life too? And if you ARE saying that, then why is it such a leap to believe that the Phoenix consciousness is not dependent on the actual existence of life because the *potential* for life always exists, whether realized or not?

My guess is, TOAA, being TOAA, had life in mind all along when he started the grand project called the multiverse. In all religions, gods put the value of life over everything else. So I don't think life, or the Phoenix Force, was an unplanned side effect (nothing can really be unplanned when you're omnipotent and omniscient).

Besides, my theory doesn't exclude freewill at all. Like I said in my grand theory - TOAA imprinted the designs for the universe in each PF-derived "egg". The designs show how the universe will look and function, but who will live there and how they will treat it is something TOAA left to them.

No free will, no need for a protector.