Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

Originally posted by illadelph12
Whirly, I know you were "Splatterpuss" and "Evil Genius", don't play coy with me my friend.

I'm not saying this to be malicious, it's just that I know you are better than this anti-Phoenix obsession you are afflicted with.

I hardly post "anti Phoenix" and no proof exists I was Evil Genius, Splatterpuss came on and was banned when I was banned, surely if any evidence existed they were me the mods would have extended my un phoenix related ban. All these people that post in favour of Whirlys view that most of you and GS etcs ideas are purely supposition and certainly not definitive are obviously just intelligent members. Not that either you or GS are not intelligent you both are, but your imaginations have run away with you both, not that that's a bad thing but......... You can't say your supposition is fact and thats the crux of the problem I have with GSs and some others ideas and explanations.

One question. How does the Ultimate Universe Jean Grey fit into your ideas?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
One question. How does the Ultimate Universe Jean Grey fit into your ideas?

Hopefully her powers will be defined properly (and not open to supposition) as she transforms which she did indicate she is doing when she fried the Helicopter.

Originally posted by leonidas
no, i'm of the impression -- based on what little i've read -- that they are the same thing. we differ a bit on it's location. i like the notion that it is the birth place of creation, and that it seems to be at the 'center'. fits my mind better, and i can see the multiverse exploding and mushrooming out in a non-linear format. i still don't like the notion that the pf is a seperate entity from the multiverse -- the idea of it being seperate and yet apart of it just doesn't sit well. it's why i like the notion that it was originally conceived WITHIN the multiverse AFTER toaa got things started with that first big bang. that idea deals with both the 'derived from life' aspect of the pf, AND the creationary force. it IS responsible for creating universes -- it just didn't start off the multiversal/megversal big bang. why create a being that exists outside the multiverse to represent life WINTHIN the multiverse?

My views on its location arent all together different from your own. The M'kraan crystal is an access point to the Crown and itself is situated at the centre of creation. Hence why its been called the heart of the universe before. I see the Crown as being at the other end of the neutron galaxy within the M'kraan crystal. Phoenix manifests from the Crown as the Big Bang and at the end of time it collapses reality back into the Crown via the crystal.

I know you dont like the idea of Phoenix being the sum of life and yet apart from it but thats actually stated on panel. So whether you like it or not you just have to accept it. No offence intended lol.

Heres a quote from Excalibur 64:

Phoenix: My true nature is without form touching all that lives with neither feeling or awareness and if the universe is to be free of the cancer i have become i must be so again.

Rachel: Why cant you retain the consciousness you have evolved in your natural state?

Phoenix: How can i explain? My natural state is immortal, of time and space and yet beyond. The experience of human life is fleeting. I cannot be both. Think of it as a camera. It see that which it focuses on. Everything else is blurred invisible. Moreover my presence here i sustained by stolen life force from that which i celebrate.

So basically in its natural state the life energy that is Phoenix flows through the universe in touch with all however in presence the Phoenix exists beyond reality. So the Phoenix manifestation isnt sentient inherently thats something it evolves over time through being connected to the developing life of the universe. The Phoenix consciousness of the Crown is the intelligence which regulates the Phoenixes. As per this interpretation the universe is a closed system so by having evolved a consciousness over time the Phoenix manifestation the Phoenix became a living entity unto itself and so began to consume the life energy allocated for future life itself, in effect looping its power back to itself.

Originally posted by leonidas
even looking at things from only the universal aspect of pf, you're definition of the force puts a lie to the bio statement that 'it is derived from life' and is the total of spychic energy of living beings. your definition says that the pf is present BEFORE any life in a universe -- and apparently before the megaverse even existed. that implies of course that the megaverse was guaranteed from its inception to hold life. was it? as relates to the universal aspect of the pf, perhaps it's consciousness is not present (i think that's what you're saying to justify it) but the force itself is STILL present -- clearly contradicting even the universal bio. how can it be derived FROM life before the universe ever took shape and even the POTENTIAL for life didn't yet exist?

Youre getting caught up on the word derived. That only means to come from it makes no mention of it being generated by the minds of those living beings. If that was the case then how could the Phoenix Force be the Big Bang? It doesnt say its the total psychic energy of all living beings it says it comes from the minds of all living beings. As aforementioned manifests on the physical plane via sentient minds. They define the presence on the physical plane of that which is beyond reality:

“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.

-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"

-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”

and in Classic X-men 43 Death says:

When you first met her you called her a figment of your imagination. That wasnt far from wrong. We are concepts Jean, defining ourselves in terms you can most easily comprehend. Phoenix is neither being nor entity(at least as you perceive such things) it is a force

Plus you must also remember that the Phoenix raptor itself was shaped by the minds eye of Feron. The line the Phoenix derives from the minds of all living beings i sjust referring to its shape and form on the physical plane not its power and very being. If that were the case then how could Phoenix be the Big Bang and why would all life and potential for life fade if it cut all ties with existence?

The Phoenix manifestations are the energies of creation the Big Bangs from which all life springs from. As such it is as stated the sum and substance of all that lives. Through its connection with life Phoenix develops a sentience and its shape and form on the physical plane derive from the minds of sentient beings. These Phoenix manifestations are commited to keeping the creation cycle going on forever and ever. Thats my interpretation.

Originally posted by leonidas
as far as the details of your argument -- i've prefaced my portion of our little debates many times by saying i have not read all relevent material and so cannot adequately refute some of what you say. for your part, you have often said some of your ideas are speculation and your interpretation based on what you've read. i suspect whirly has read all your scans, like i have, and the gist of his argument is simply that it should be allowed (not unrealistic, i don't think) that others MAY interpret the scans differently from you OR i. as we seem to differ slightly on the goblin force incident or the galactus incident. because things have NOT been spelled out completely, and no 'definitive' description of the force (as a whole, apparently) has been presented, there will ALWAYS be people who read or see things differently.

it's what makes this forum fun! 😄

Its fine for people to interpret things differently and i have no problem with that if their interpretation is well supported and takes everything into account. In fact id love to see another persons interpretation where they achieve those things. I have yet to see one. Thats the problem. Disagreeing with the interpretations here out of spite or just out of dislike for the character (and what the interpretations entail) whilst not coming up with a credible argument yourself is ridiculous. Dont get me wrong you know that isnt directed at yourself. Thats just the problem i have with some of the opposition.

Oh for the love of... Don't you two ever tire?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My views on its location arent all together different from your own. The M'kraan crystal is an access point to the Crown and itself is situated at the centre of creation. Hence why its been called the heart of the universe before. I see the Crown as being at the other end of the neutron galaxy within the M'kraan crystal. Phoenix manifests from the Crown as the Big Bang and at the end of time it collapses reality back into the Crown via the crystal.

I know you dont like the idea of Phoenix being the sum of life and yet apart from it but thats actually stated on panel. So whether you like it or not you just have to accept it. No offence intended lol.

Heres a quote from Excalibur 64:

So basically in its natural state the life energy that is Phoenix flows through the universe in touch with all however in presence the Phoenix exists beyond reality. So the Phoenix manifestation isnt sentient inherently thats something it evolves over time through being connected to the developing life of the universe. The Phoenix consciousness of the Crown is the intelligence which regulates the Phoenixes. As per this interpretation the universe is a closed system so by having evolved a consciousness over time the Phoenix manifestation the Phoenix became a living entity unto itself and so began to consume the life energy allocated for future life itself, in effect looping its power back to itself.

Youre getting caught up on the word derived. That only means to come from it makes no mention of it being generated by the minds of those living beings. If that was the case then how could the Phoenix Force be the Big Bang? It doesnt say its the total psychic energy of all living beings it says it comes from the minds of all living beings. As aforementioned manifests on the physical plane via sentient minds. They define the presence on the physical plane of that which is beyond reality:

and in Classic X-men 43 Death says:

Plus you must also remember that the Phoenix raptor itself was shaped by the minds eye of Feron. The line the Phoenix derives from the minds of all living beings i sjust referring to its shape and form on the physical plane not its power and very being. If that were the case then how could Phoenix be the Big Bang and why would all life and potential for life fade if it cut all ties with existence?

The Phoenix manifestations are the energies of creation the Big Bangs from which all life springs from. As such it is as stated the sum and substance of all that lives. Through its connection with life Phoenix develops a sentience and its shape and form on the physical plane derive from the minds of sentient beings. These Phoenix manifestations are commited to keeping the creation cycle going on forever and ever. Thats my interpretation.

Its fine for people to interpret things differently and i have no problem with that if their interpretation is well supported and takes everything into account. In fact id love to see another persons interpretation where they achieve those things. I have yet to see one. Thats the problem. Disagreeing with the interpretations here out of spite or just out of dislike for the character (and what the interpretations entail) whilst not coming up with a credible argument yourself is ridiculous. Dont get me wrong you know that isnt directed at yourself. Thats just the problem i have with some of the opposition.

It's amusing that noone will read this 🙂 except maybe Illadelph and perhaps Leo.

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

No extrapolation is canon 🙂

<<If that were the case then how could Phoenix be the Big Bang and why would all life and potential for life fade if it cut all ties with existence?>>

it could happen because the pf energy from the PREVIOUS big bang still exists and it would be channeled forward to shape the next big bang. there is also still life present in other universes. this idea works even if someone ELSE ends the universe. there i suppose the multiversal entity would just . . . take the energy back into itself and reuse it. in fact, it works right up until the inception of that very first megaversal spark, and that's where i contend toaa (or whoever) started it, rather than the pf. pf could have come into being due to the potential of life in the megaverse in the tiniest moment AFTER that initial spark who's location was likely this crown that has been mentioned.

and it's funny -- i suspect we are only amusing ourselves at the moment! oh well.

and maybe whirly!
😄

Originally posted by leonidas
<<If that were the case then how could Phoenix be the Big Bang and why would all life and potential for life fade if it cut all ties with existence?>>

it could happen because the pf energy from the PREVIOUS big bang still exists and it would be channeled forward to shape the next big bang. there is also still life present in other universes. this idea works even if someone ELSE ends the universe. there i suppose the multiversal entity would just . . . take the energy back into itself and reuse it. in fact, it works right up until the inception of that very first megaversal spark, and that's where i contend toaa (or whoever) started it, rather than the pf. pf could have come into being due to the potential of life in the megaverse in the tiniest moment AFTER that initial spark who's location was likely this crown that has been mentioned.

and it's funny -- i suspect we are only amusing ourselves at the moment! oh well.

and maybe whirly!
😄

😉

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It's amusing that noone will read this 🙂 except maybe Illadelph and perhaps Leo.

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

No extrapolation is canon 🙂

Indeed. But a well supported argument is better than nothing at all. Extrapolation is something prevalent on comic book forums because not all aspects of a character are defined by comic book companies. As long as its well supported and stands to reason then theres no problem with it.

A few facts though are that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same as stated

Phoenix is the energies of creation which all life is dependent on.

The Crown is the origin point and the end point of Marvels creation cycle

I'll think of some more later.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Indeed. But a well supported argument is better than nothing at all. Extrapolation is something prevalent on comic book forums because not all aspects of a character are defined by comic book companies. As long as its well supported and stands to reason then theres no problem with it.

A few facts though are that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same as stated

Phoenix is the energies of creation which all life is dependent on.

The Crown is the origin point and the end point of Marvels creation cycle

I'll think of some more later.

In your opinion (please start adding this) 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
In your opinion (please start adding this) 🙂

Well its actually stated on panel and in the bio that Jean Grey and Phoenix are one. No extrapolation there.

Its actually stated on panel that Phoenix is the energies of creation, that it manifests as the Big Bang and that without it exists not the smallest potential for life.

Finally its actually stated that the Crown is the core of creation on panel and in the bio and that its the origin point for life and where all life ends. 😄

No extrapolation just cold, hard facts. Deal with it. 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well its actually stated on panel and in the bio that Jean Grey and Phoenix are one. No extrapolation there.

Its actually stated on panel that Phoenix is the energies of creation, that it manifests as the Big Bang and that without it exists not the smallest potential for life.

Finally its actually stated that the Crown is the core of creation on panel and in the bio and that its the origin point for life and where all life ends. 😄

No extrapolation just cold, hard facts. Deal with it. 😱

Yes and the hand book refutes Jean and Phoenix being one 🙂

The handbook does not mention the big bang being caused by Phoenix

The handbook does not mention the crown as the core of creation 🙂

Extrapolation. The phoenix force is powered by unborn generations "Canon" not TOAA.

anything else isn't canon it's extrapolation.

Merry Christmas start adding imo please. 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yes and the hand book refutes Jean and Phoenix being one 🙂

"""""""The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find it’s other pieces."""""""

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The handbook does not mention the big bang being caused by Phoenix

"""""" In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” """""

By all accounts the Phoenix Force is the embodiment of the Big Bang as stated this year its is the energies of creation, it is the Big Bang. It co-ordinates the end of the universe and after collapsing everything into the white hot room is reborn again as the Big Bang starting the process all over again. This account can be interpreted to fit in with that just fine. It certainly doesnt contradict it im afraid. No extrapolation if you need any scans or supportive links you just ask my friend.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The handbook does not mention the crown as the core of creation 🙂

"""""" The Force returned to Earth-616 once more and manifested itself within Jean Grey before she was seemingly killed by an electromagnetic pulse. This shattered the Force into billions of pieces. Incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room""""""

There you have it. I suspect youre going to try and tell me the White Hot room isnt the Crown now? 😂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Extrapolation. The phoenix force is powered by unborn generations "Canon" not TOAA.

anything else isn't canon it's extrapolation.

Merry Christmas start adding imo please. 🙂

"""""""""However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existance.""""""""

As ive just related to Leo where i quoted from issue 64 of Excalbur (where that line came from) Phoenix does not just draw on the power of life unborn. If you read it if it manifests on the physical plane i.e it forms a sentience as opposed to just remaining in its natural state then it consumes the life energy allocated for fiture life as in this interpretation the universe is a closed system.

No extrapolation my friend thats actually stated on panel. Ask for any references and i'll gladly post them.

Again Whirly. Merry Xmas you tried hard. Take the New Year to regroup. 😱

<<"""""" In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” """"">>

hmm, that bit really doesn't support your argument. it appears from that that the force itself was 'reborn' FROM the big bang. a far cry from the force WAS the big bang . . .

you've shown some other stuff that might lead one to believe it is the fires of the big bang itself, but this bit does NOT give that impression, and hence is a bit inconsistent with your theory and other scans. it's why i still hold some reservations abou all of it.

merry christmas my friend! 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
<<"""""" In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” """"">>

hmm, that bit really doesn't support your argument. it appears from that that the force itself was 'reborn' FROM the big bang. a far cry from the force WAS the big bang . . .

you've shown some other stuff that might lead one to believe it is the fires of the big bang itself, but this bit does NOT give that impression, and hence is a bit inconsistent with your theory and other scans. it's why i still hold some reservations abou all of it.

merry christmas my friend! 😄

Well its actually stated on panel that it is the Big Bang the very energies of creation, that it embodies that moment. So that really isnt up for debate. You need to remember that handbooks relay on panel events they do not and never have retconned continuity themselves. Plus as i said previously that description doesnt contradict what ive said in the slightest, it can easily still be interpreted in a way that follows my interpretation.

At the end of time Phoenix co-ordinates the end of reality as supported in the bio everything is collapsed into the M'kraan crystal in the end of all that is.

Heres a quote from Uncanny X-men 108:

""""""""""""Nothing will be spared as the power of this near-infinite mass reaches out across the universe pulling stars and planets from their orbits with monstrous ease....All plunge helplessly down the insatiable gravity well of the N-Galaxy, their mass adding to its gravity, gravity attracting more mass until reality itself begins to tear apart. Something has to give. Something does--in an explosion that scatters stellar mass out across a new virgin universe. Where there was destruction, now there is creation and where there was darkness now there is light"""""""""""

With that explosion reality is born anew, the energies of creation are released into the void and they are the reborn Phoenix. These energies are the Phoenix manifestation in its natural state.

The Phoenix as stated is the sum and substance of all that lives,the power which permeates and sustains all that lives and the M'kraan crystal is the tool through which this energy is absorbed into and expelled from the white hot room during the creation cycle. That is why only the Phoenix can work and contain the power of the M'kraan crystal, they are forever connected. It is a gateway to the Crown which is the "core of creation" the "heart of the Phoenix."

Merry Xmas to you to. 😄

Having just posted one of his very long and hilarious posts asking me to regroup lets have a bit of a laugh at GSs extrapolation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

"""""" In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” """""

Originally posted by leonidas
<<"""""" In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” """"">>

hmm, that bit really doesn't support your argument. it appears from that that the force itself was 'reborn' FROM the big bang. a far cry from the force WAS the big bang . . .

you've shown some other stuff that might lead one to believe it is the fires of the big bang itself, but this bit does NOT give that impression, and hence is a bit inconsistent with your theory and other scans. it's why i still hold some reservations abou all of it.

merry christmas my friend! 😄

Yup Leo as you say......... From means "from" not "source of" 🙂

as usual its extrapolation, the handbook is canon GS thats why it exists it superseeds everything else, all your ideas are extrapolation and much has been "retconned" to use your own silly phrase out. 🙂

The handbook does not mention the crown as core of creation it is retrospect aboout the role of the "white hot room". retcon of one writer by Marvel as a whole if thats what he intended and that intention is only extrapolation by fanboys 🙂

The handbook does not state Jean and the Phoenix are one and strangely the Goblin Force incident supports this.

No need for anyone to regroup it's just extraoplation as the Yahweh thread showed most people know this except those that read your early essays and were to proud to admit that you fooled them in light of all the new evidence.

Keep the faith🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Extrapolation is not Canon GS and neither are you, neither is an individual writer........ The Handbook is!!!!!! Thats why it exists 🙂

i guess its safe to say that all once and future hierarchy threads should be named how the enitre multiverse would stack up aganist the PF, cuz this is ridicouls now😄

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Having just posted one of his very long and hilarious posts asking me to regroup lets have a bit of a laugh at GSs extrapolation.

Yup Leo as you say......... From means "from" not "source of" 🙂

as usual its extrapolation, the handbook is canon GS thats why it exists it superseeds everything else, all your ideas are extrapolation and much has been "retconned" to use your own silly phrase out. 🙂

The handbook does not mention the crown as core of creation it is retrospect aboout the role of the "white hot room". retcon of one writer by Marvel as a whole if thats what he intended and that intention is only extrapolation by fanboys 🙂

The handbook does not state Jean and the Phoenix are one and strangely the Goblin Force incident supports this.

No need for anyone to regroup it's just extraoplation as the Yahweh thread showed most people know this except those that read your early essays and were to proud to admit that you fooled them in light of all the new evidence.

Keep the faith🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Extrapolation is not Canon GS and neither are you, neither is an individual writer........ The Handbook is!!!!!! Thats why it exists 🙂

I really dont need to reply to all of this because number one if you actually read my previous post you'll see it renders your above quibbling over the word "from" quite irrelevant and at the end of the day its shown quite conclusively that the white hot room and the crown are one and the same and its actually stated on panel and in your bio that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same.

Read the comics so you know what youre talking about. Basing arguments on hearsay and bios gets you nowhere my friend. When will you ever learn? 6 months down the line and its the same outcome once again. Game over. 😱

All of this i'll dismiss as the ramblings of a sore loser who hates the fact that his spite thread has turned into something completely different to what was first intended. 🙁

Sorry mate.

Hope u had a good Xmas. 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
gs sayeth:

<<. . . convince me and whoever else is reading that these notions are nothing but your opinion on how things should be.>>

somewhere sir whirly is laughing himself drunk at the irony. . .

Indeed I am Leo 🙂 When will GS learn not to make these sort of hilarious statements? 😂 I hope never!!!

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Happy New Year All 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Read the comics so you know what youre talking about. Basing arguments on hearsay and bios gets you nowhere my friend. When will you ever learn? 6 months down the line and its the same outcome once again. Game over. 😱

All of this i'll dismiss as the ramblings of a sore loser who hates the fact that his spite thread has turned into something completely different to what was first intended. 🙁

Sorry mate.

Hope u had a good Xmas. 😄

Still stands.

Game.😮

Set.😄

Match. 😱

Seasons greetings to all!!! 😉