Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I realise you have a new found love of VVD's material, I agree it's funny.
Nice attempt at a dig, but VVD and I have had a mutual respect going for a while. At least I hope it's mutual.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I just don't see why you have to become menstrual every time you don't get one of my comments rather than asking if I meant it in a non-serious way.-AC
Because I wanted to. How does that work?
Originally posted by KharmaDog
Nice attempt at a dig, but VVD and I have had a mutual respect going for a while. At least I hope it's mutual.
Wait, how in the hell did you deduce that was a dig as I specifically said it was funny afterward? Chill out man. It wasn't a dig unless you subconsciously believe it to be a negative thing.
Originally posted by KharmaDog
Because I wanted to. How does that work?
So you make needless comments that serve no meaning other than to cause these types of encounters, because you want to...despite knowing that you could have just asked what I meant? Cool.
Just never speak of maturity to another poster on this boards again.
-AC
1) If he has no means of communication, no privileges, nothing...how does he do it? Since this was one of you reasons for not imprisoning him. What danger does he present in prison? None, but go on.
There are no assurances of this so the danger he presents in prison is that fact he is alive and represents a faction that needs to be dissolved. Again are you aware of Nelson Mandella?
2) What's worse, torturing many people with gases and brutal physical torture, or being in prison with a bed and toilet facilities, for your crimes....forever?
Torture is torture is torture..........do you want to justify one because you deem more humanitarian? I answered your number 2 awhile back go back and read........if you wish to play semantics its all torture so you tell me with your logic.
Originally posted by soleran30
There are no assurances of this so the danger he presents in prison is that fact he is alive and represents a faction that needs to be dissolved. Again are you aware of Nelson Mandella?
How are you seriously sitting there saying there are no assurances only to swan off and talk about another guy? We're discussing Saddam.
Secondly, answer my question. If he is in prison with no means of organising anything in any way (which obviously will be the case, they're not gonna give the guy air time are they?), how is he going to have the effect you stated he would? Stop dodging it.
Originally posted by soleran30
Torture is torture is torture..........do you want to justify one because you deem more humanitarian? I answered your number 2 awhile back go back and read........if you wish to play semantics its all torture so you tell me with your logic.
Here's my question again:
What's worse, torturing many people with gases and brutal physical torture, or being in prison with a bed and toilet facilities, for your crimes....forever?
What is worse? The first or the second? We have established you believe they are both torture, my question is which one is worse to you. Don't cop out with "Oh torture is torture". Just answer it. Which one is worse? The brutal torture of human beings through deadly physical/biochemical means, or imprisonment?
Imagawa, I've dealt with you. You're not only stupid but obviously not very perceptive. I'm not a female.
-AC
AC> I'm gonna attempt to answer your question.
I think it has become more socially acceptable to do the latter, as it has more of a phycological (Spelled horrendously) impact on a person. Staggering boredom has an effect after a while,
But the former is more physical, and I would tend to lean towards this simply because physical tourture can become phycological after a certian degree or exposure.
Although Both are punishments to a degree that I cannot even fathom, but I think that life in prison is preferable to death.
And I take a strong anti-death penalty view no matter the subject. Even Hitler shouldn't receive the death penalty.
Well I was asking him specifically, but thanks.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I guess I'm the only one that thinks that there's nothing wrong with marching people in to gas chambers...as long as it's for a legitimate and productive reason.
There aren't any legitimate and productive reasons, and you can't use the "They don't do it unless they're sure" argument because there's always a minute margin for error. In the event that you are killing a human, minute margins are too big.
In the event of a dictator such as Saddam, the aim is to not let him do it again or continue doing it. People seem to get the idea that the goal is to avenge all those deaths by killing the man. It's not. It's to bring him to justice and see that he never does it again. This can be achieved by locking him up, not hypocritically putting him to death.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So you make needless comments that serve no meaning other than to cause these types of encounters, because you want to...despite knowing that you could have just asked what I meant? Cool.Just never speak of maturity to another poster on this boards again.
-AC
The above response was directed to my comment as follows.
I said:
Because I wanted to
Now let's go to another thread, just moments previous to this where I asked (regarding one of your posts)
Originally posted by KharmaDog
Why even add that to your statement?
To which you responded:
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) Because I wanted to.
See the humour in that? Sometimes your a real peach AC.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Don't speak for me, learn that. Don't pull the age old "If it were you..." argument on me. That's been tried before and it doesn't work.
First off, I'm not speaking for you...All I asked was to put yourself in someone else's shoes..but now that I know that asking to show some sympathy and consideration for others' situations always winds up in the "better you than me" category, I won't bother you again. Sorry I asked..I didn't think that I needed your permission to ask you to walk in someone else's shoes for a minute and consider their hurt.[/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is all based on your personal views rather than what's practical..
Like your "personal view" that I'm not "cool" enough for you because I said "screw it"? Sorry, this isn't about your "personal views" about others' "coolness." This isn't about being cool. Learn that.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Speaking with your heart in mind is all very well and good, speaking with your brain first is better...
So you're the only one with a brain here at KM? Don't think so.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I do absolutely love it when, in a failing attempt to falsely exacerbate what I'm saying, people make a completely stupid point of view in the hope that it will make me look bad.Do quite love that. One of my favourite things ever.
Again, by whose standards is it stupid? Are you the "opinion police"?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly. I wouldn't want them set free to do it again. You are absolutely right. We agree 100% in that. That's exactly my point. Don't set him free to do it again.Why is death necessary for this to happen?.
And why is it necessary to keep him in Club Fed with luxuries and 3 meals a day. Federal prisons are nothing but gilded cages where mobsters and dictators go to die in the lap of luxury, and why should
he get treated differently from the general populace just because he once had billion dollar palaces? Why should our tax dollars go to make his declining years safe and warm?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There aren't any legitimate and productive reasons, and you can't use the "They don't do it unless they're sure" argument because there's always a minute margin for error. In the event that you are killing a human, minute margins are too big.In the event of a dictator such as Saddam, the aim is to not let him do it again or continue doing it. People seem to get the idea that the goal is to avenge all those deaths by killing the man. It's not. It's to bring him to justice and see that he never does it again. This can be achieved by locking him up, not hypocritically putting him to death.
-AC
None of this is my point.
I won't argue with you either. As we both know there's no point in it. You can feel the way you do...and I will the way I do.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
In the event of a dictator such as Saddam, the aim is to not let him do it again or continue doing it. People seem to get the idea that the goal is to avenge all those deaths by killing the man. It's not. It's to bring him to justice and see that he never does it again. This can be achieved by locking him up, not hypocritically putting him to death.-AC
OK, let's see how this works:
Assume Saddam is jailed in America. Ordinary jail, max security. No Club Fed. Suppose that every previously unknown Al Qaeda cell plans for and carries out a successful unified internal strike to paralyze local law enforcement and military while their commandos break him out and successfully escape with him. Holy War on American soil and perhaps more chaos than 9\11 as daily attacks become the norm, like in Israel.
Do you really think that keeping him alive and having this sort of risk is a good idea?
Yes, we would be just as screwed if we put him to death, but that was my point. No matter what we do with him, he is a liability and we will be just as guilty in Al Qaeda and the Arab world's eyes EITHER WAY.
Either way there will be future trouble, and I fail to see why he should have the best we can offer him in a Federal jail each day as he lives in a gilded cage until he dies.
He's there to be punished, not to wear 2 piece suits and have his own personal palace with all the toys and amenities as they do with mobsters and other dictators.
Thank you for proving your ignorance.
Just like to say that you know absolutly nothing about the state of affairs in the Middle East.
If we put Saddam in a Bolt-Locked Cage in the middle of the Saudi Arabian Desert with no-one around, not ONE Al-Quada Member would come to release him. They don't like each other, they are different muslim branches. and just in general, don't like each other.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Assume Saddam is jailed in America. Ordinary jail, max security. No Club Fed. Suppose that every previously unknown Al Qaeda cell plans for and carries out a successful unified internal strike to paralyze local law enforcement and military while their commandos break him out and successfully escape with him. Holy War on American soil and perhaps more chaos than 9\11 as daily attacks become the norm, like in Israel.
So basically what you were saying in the above post (I didn't quote all of it) is that...sure, if we kill him we're screwed...but if we don't there will be trouble anyway, so we might aswell kill him? There's no reason to though. There is no reason to kill the man. Locking him up will achieve justice. He can't act out any more crimes. Case closed.
Your elaborate Al Qaeda A-Teamesque break out was nicely scripted, but it's just not going to happen is it? Your rationale is flawed and it's you doing the damage to your own debate.
"There's trouble either way, so might as well have him dead."
If there's trouble coming anyway, why bring more by making a martyr out of Saddam? It follows no logic.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
First off, I'm not speaking for you...All I asked was to put yourself in someone else's shoes..but now that I know that asking to show some sympathy and consideration for others' situations always winds up in the "better you than me" category, I won't bother you again. Sorry I asked..I didn't think that I needed your permission to ask you to walk in someone else's shoes for a minute and consider their hurt.
I never got that. "Put yourself in someone else's shoes." Why? I'm not them. I'd not ask someone who's just lost their loved one to say "Put yourself in my shoes, I've not lost anyone. You'll feel better." So why should I put myself in their position? I know how I would act because I've lost loved ones.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Like your "personal view" that I'm not "cool" enough for you because I said "screw it"? Sorry, this isn't about your "personal views" about others' "coolness." This isn't about being cool. Learn that.
I said saying it doesn't make you cool. Where you extracted the rest from is a mystery to me.
To be on topic: What you are suggesting with regards to the death vs imprisonment debate is your personal opinion, correct? Your personal opinion follows vengeance rather than justice. As I said to Capt, justice is what we're after. Not vengeance. At least it should be. The goal is to stop criminals, not killing them because we think they're bastards.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
So you're the only one with a brain here at KM? Don't think so.
Well, I'd rather not get into that. Though if I were asked to wager a guess on the amount of people with common sense on this forum I'd not estimate in the high 90 percent, let's say that much.
On topic once again: You are judging that Saddam be put to death because of what you feel emotionally towards the cause. Not what would work out for the best.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Again, by whose standards is it stupid? Are you the "opinion police"?
You saying that remark about Saddam being let back out onto the streets is stupid, unless you were being sarcastic.
I don't know whether you were referring to me or not, I'll not assume either way. What I will say is that just because I don't believe the man should be put to death, doesn't mean I believe he is exempt from justice.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
And why is it necessary to keep him in Club Fed with luxuries and 3 meals a day. Federal prisons are nothing but gilded cages where mobsters and dictators go to die in the lap of luxury, and why should
he get treated differently from the general populace just because he once had billion dollar palaces?
I'm saying lock him up for life with no privileges. Who said he deserves to be treated differently because he has palaces? I don't believe anyone should be put to death, so infact I'm being more equal than you here.
Prison, regardless of it's failed points, is no luxury is it? Let's stop calling prison luxury. That's not exactly being realistic.
Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Why should our tax dollars go to make his declining years safe and warm?
Here's the deal. If you want Saddam and his alikes to be stopped, then one can only assume it's because you don't like what they do. Putting them in prison achieves your goal. So what happens while they're in there is irrelevant isn't it?
You want these people brought to justice so they can be stopped from committing atrocities, correct? They can't commit atrocities in prison. Justice achieved. You not liking the fact that they get fed etc is just your base, barbaric need for revenge kicking in. It has nothing to do with justice being served. Once they've been halted, justice is done. Anything after that, including the overkill that IS the death penalty, is just pointless hypocricy.
Why should your dollars be spent? Why? I'll tell you why. Because you and people like you are the one's b*tching, whining and moaning about terrorists and how they should be brought to justice out of one side of your mouth. Then out of the other side, saying "As long as it's cheap."
You either want justice, or you want revenge. If life-long imprisonment, regardless of it's flaws, is not good enough, then you aren't after justice at all and you should shut your mouth.
-AC