Execution of Saddam?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You either want justice, or you want revenge. If life-long imprisonment, regardless of it's flaws, is not good enough, then you aren't after justice at all and you should shut your mouth.

-AC

Getting a bit confrontational there aren't we? No need for that sort of attitude. This is a discussion, not a war between you and I. Sheesh.

Lashing out at me for a list of possibilities and maybe scenarios and saying that you wouldn't estimate that a "high 90% of the board" isn't in the common sense zone? But yet YOU are.

This went from a discussion to a war, and I'M not the one who started it by telling you to shut your mouth.

And if MY not being cool enough for you, or my opinion isn't "good enough for YOU" , and if you can't accept that every opinion, regardless of it's flaws, as you put it, has a right to be expressed, then YOU aren't recognizing others' rights to differing opinions, and you should shut YOUR mouth too.

Oh but I forgot, yours is the only opinion that matters.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Getting a bit confrontational there aren't we? No need for that sort of attitude. This is a discussion, not a war between you and I. Sheesh.

Lashing out at me for a list of possibilities and maybe scenarios and saying that you wouldn't estimate that a "high 90% of the board" isn't in the common sense zone? But yet YOU are.

This went from a discussion to a war, and I'M not the one who started it by telling you to shut your mouth.

And if MY not being cool enough for you, or my opinion isn't "good enough for YOU" , and if you can't accept that every opinion, regardless of it's flaws, as you put it, has a right to be expressed, then YOU aren't recognizing others' rights to differing opinions, and you should shut YOUR mouth too.

Oh but I forgot, yours is the only opinion that matters.

Chill out, I'm not lashing out or attacking. I'm saying that you should stop claiming you want justice if prison, regardless of it's flaws, isn't good enough. Because you don't want justice if this is the case, you want vengeance. When I said "shut your mouth" I was speaking generally about hypocrites. Not aiming it at you specifically. Though you are a hypocrite so if you're not gonna talk honestly, then maybe this is the best course of action.

The genuinely poor thing about that post was that, in realising how badly I've exposed your flawed logic, you're not trying to make it about me.

Truly a let down.

-AC

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
Thank you for proving your ignorance.
Just like to say that you know absolutly nothing about the state of affairs in the Middle East.
If we put Saddam in a Bolt-Locked Cage in the middle of the Saudi Arabian Desert with no-one around, not ONE Al-Quada Member would come to release him. They don't like each other, they are different muslim branches. and just in general, don't like each other.

Apparently you aren't aware of the generallly accepted ideal that regardless of branch or faction, that all who have a common enemy will sometimes unite to defeat that enemy. At one time or another the prey AND the predator both share the same watering hole.

It's called keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.

Ignorance? For what, listing a possible package of scenarios? How can you say it wouldn't happen? One of the rules in life is to assume nothing or that nothing will or won't happen.

Case In Point:

Look at the female suicide bombers now. It's against Islamic law for that to happen but they're breaking the rules to suit their needs.

You forget the Baath loyalists who make a great deal of the internal insurgency in Iraq separate from the percentage of foreign fighters and you have no idea exactly what percentage of the Iraqi population is still loyal to Saddam.

If they were to strike at once in a unified force, we WOULD have a problem because they have an entire population that defends them (or at least their methods) when it comes to dealing with occupational forces.

Is it wrong to assume that anything can happen? Jeez.

There's a difference between anything being a possible occurance (which is false) and everything being a possible occurance.

You seem to be arguing both, and not doing too well.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Chill out, I'm not lashing out or attacking. I'm saying that you should stop claiming you want justice if prison, regardless of it's flaws, isn't good enough. Because you don't want justice if this is the case, you want vengeance. When I said "shut your mouth" I was speaking generally about hypocrites. Not aiming it at you specifically. Though you are a hypocrite so if you're not gonna talk honestly, then maybe this is the best course of action.

The genuinely poor thing about that post was that, in realising how badly I've exposed your flawed logic, you're not trying to make it about me.

Truly a let down.

-AC

Hypocrite? Well let's see how YOUR driving test scores come out here:

Saying you weren't aiming at me in light of the fact that you said to me that it's:

you and people like you are the one's b*tching, whining and moaning about terrorists and how they should be brought to justice out of one side of your mouth. "As long as it's cheap."

Well if I'm not being specifically aimed at, then why is it "me and people like me you mention?

Saying that I wan't the specific target, yet saying things directly about ME and PEOPLE LIKE ME.

You clearly labelled me, tried to cover it up with the words "people like you" and now try to get out of it by making it a 'blanket statement' and not a general one aimed at me.

A hypocrite calling someone else a hypocrite, with a statement that clearly exposes his own flaws while he tries to particularize MINE.

Truly a let down...

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Well if I'm not being specifically aimed at, then why is it "me and people like me you mention?

Saying that I wan't the specific target, yet saying things directly about ME and PEOPLE LIKE ME.

What do you think the "and people like me" part meant? You and them included, which clearly means I'm not specifically picking you out doesn't it, Sherlock? You are included, but so are people like you. Hence you not being a sole target. Shall I run it buy you again? Perhaps you would enjoy me drawing a flow diagram with some bright crayolas?

Damn.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
You clearly labelled me, tried to cover it up with the words "people like you" and now try to get out of it by making it a 'blanket statement' and not a general one aimed at me.

A hypocrite calling someone else a hypocrite, with a statement that clearly exposes his own flaws while he tries to particularize MINE.

Truly a let down...

Not a general one? How much more general than "You AND (note the and) people like you (aka everyone who holds the same opinion as you)" can you get...? How? You're being silly.

Do you have anything to say relevant to my last post? Or not? Because this isn't needed.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There's a difference between anything being a possible occurance (which is false) and everything being a possible occurance.

You seem to be arguing both, and not doing too well.

-AC

Here we go again. And you seem to not be doing too well proving that it WON'T happen. Possibilities are not false, they are possibilities. Just because something dosen't happen dosen't mean it might NOT happen.
That was all I was saying.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As I said to Capt, justice is what we're after. Not vengeance.
-AC

Justice only goes so far though. Revenge implies that I want a certain person to pay for their crimes or ignorance. That's short sighted. Justice can be served in the harsh manner I'm reffering to...and serve as people's reason to accept the consiquences of their actions....actual or imagined. Acting on one's own notions could result in punishment. Which is really justice?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Justice only goes so far though. Revenge implies that I want a certain person to pay for their crimes or ignorance. That's short sighted. Justice can be served in the harsh manner I'm reffering to...and serve as people's reason to accept the consiquences of their actions....actual or imagined. Acting on one's own notions could result in punishment. Which is really justice?

To me, killing someone because they killed, isn't justice. It's hypocricy. Justice would be stopping those people. Incarceration is a perfectly reasonable way of doing this unless you do want the person to suffer death. In which case it's an overblown version of "justice." Achieving the same means as imprisonment, but harsher. Which runs over into doing things because you believe the person deserves it for their actions...aka revenge or vengeance.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Here we go again. And you seem to not be doing too well proving that it WON'T happen. Possibilities are not false, they are possibilities. Just because something dosen't happen dosen't mean it might NOT happen.
That was all I was saying.

Well I've driven your argument so far into the dirt that you're now being fussy over the wordings of my posts, and still failing. So I'd say I'm doing a pretty good job actually.

You're not raising any realistic points and when confronted with my last post, you chickened out.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What do you think the "and people like me" part meant? You and them included, which clearly means I'm not specifically picking you out doesn't it, Sherlock? You are included, but so are people like you. Hence you not being a sole target. Shall I run it buy you again? Perhaps you would enjoy me drawing a flow diagram with some bright crayolas?

Damn.

ME and PEOPLE LIKE ME. ME, as in "individual". That means me as a separate entity, or as part of a group. Perhaps I should run a diagram of lumping people together into one category by you? Perhaps I should tell you that you're labelling me no matter how you slice it when you say it's "me and people like me"? Dude you couldn't put it any plainer.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you have anything to say relevant to my last post? Or not? Because this isn't needed..[/B]

Do you have any proof that you aren't labelling me in light of your 'fair and balanced' take you try to present to us? If not, don't, because as you say, this isn't needed.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To me, killing someone because they killed, isn't justice.
-AC

I totally agree. I'm not saying I'm not extreme in my ideals. I'm saying, logically, I'm justified. But, that is why I said I didn't want to argue with you. You have your POV, as do I.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well I've driven your argument so far into the dirt that you're now being fussy over the wordings of my posts, and still failing. So I'd say I'm doing a pretty good job actually.

You're not raising any realistic points and when confronted with my last post, you chickened out.

And the veryt nature of your prideful attitude comes with this very assumption. You're not concerned about being fair or balanced, you're now resorting to "running me in the dirt" and assuming that you're doing a good job.

And YOU sir, are the one chickening out. Show me how a statement that clearly says that "I and others like me being the problem" dosen't mean what it clearly says? You're on the ropes, not me.

You're chickening out by assuming that you're running me into the dirt. Sorry man, I'm still standing. Your point?

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
ME and PEOPLE LIKE ME. ME, as in "individual". That means me as a separate entity, or as part of a group. Perhaps I should run a diagram of lumping people together into one category by you? Perhaps I should tell you that you're labelling me no matter how you slice it when you say it's "me and people like me"? Dude you couldn't put it any plainer.

Oh dear, kid.

Why are you continuing this pointless crusade? I've literally just told you I wasn't specifically aiming it at you, though you were included. I told you that you were included, but I also said you were not alone. I showed you why, showed you how you got it wrong, and you are still here whining your ass off over it? What's wrong with you? Do you get off on thinking "Oh man this guy is picking me out!" or something?

I've told you I wasn't, that's the end of it. Anything you say after that is your own deal.

How about you listen to me when I'm telling you I'm not labelling you, go back to my relevant post and reply to something on topic?

Why don't you do that instead of throwing a pathetic tantrum?

I've told you it wasn't aimed solely at you, so now you can put your rattle back in the pushchair and continue on topic.

-AC

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
And the veryt nature of your prideful attitude comes with this very assumption. You're not concerned about being fair or balanced, you're now resorting to "running me in the dirt" and assuming that you're doing a good job.

And YOU sir, are the one chickening out. Show me how a statement that clearly says that "I and others like me being the problem" dosen't mean what it clearly says? You're on the ropes, not me.

You're chickening out by assuming that you're running me into the dirt. Sorry man, I'm still standing. Your point?

Oh dude, shut up. Seriously. I've told you I wasn't solely picking you out, now you're just dwelling on it because you can't debate on topic.

I've explained to you, proven to you and shown you why you're wrong, where you're wrong and I'm the one who originally said it so I think I know what I meant a little more than you do. You are now aware that you aren't being solely picked out. We can move on.

Are you going to start replying to my on topic debate? Or not?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh dear, kid.

Why are you continuing this pointless crusade? I've literally just told you I wasn't specifically aiming it at you, though you were included. I told you that you were included, but I also said you were not alone. I showed you why, showed you how you got it wrong, and you are still here whining your ass off over it? What's wrong with you? Do you get off on thinking "Oh man this guy is picking me out!" or something?

I've told you I wasn't, that's the end of it. Anything you say after that is your own deal.

Again. You include me as an individual or as a group. And what you said is your own deal as well, only you don't seem to want to live up to it. Attacking me of whining now are we? Concentrating on my behavior to take the heat off of yourself?

And if you didn't mean ME, you went the alternate route and said "people like me" and that assumes that either myself, or similar thinkers, are part of the problem.

And on the chance you didn't mean it that way, you could have at least phrased it more effectively. But as you said, possibilities are false, so I won't hold out TOO much hope. Remember, possibilities are false.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How about you listen to me when I'm telling you I'm not labelling you, go back to my relevant post and reply to something on topic?

Why don't you do that instead of throwing a pathetic tantrum?.

Tantrum? Oh yes, I forgot. Rebuttals and maintenace of one's position to one who dosen't agree with it automatically constitutes whining. Would you like cheese to go with your whine?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've told you it wasn't aimed solely at you, so now you can put your rattle back in the pushchair and continue on topic.

Claiming no desire to fight, claiming superior intelligence, and yet resorting to such a condescending statement to try to get at me when I haven't even said one thing to you to demean you in turn. It's clear to me who really needs the pushchair in this argument.

And you call ME "kid."

All of this and it's all because of your failure to admit that you decided to dive in with an assumption (that I can't understand how you made anyway) despite me clearly clarifying that whilst you were included, you were not a sole target.

When I said you and people like you, I meant in this case the mentality you hold that others do share. You aren't part of a "problem", just not contributing to the solution. As I have proven in this debate that you are now trying to hard to run away from.

It was implied in my first post, clarified in every post thereafter (to your oblivious denial) and now here again: I don't and never did single you out. End of story. However you want to dissect and try to analyse my points, do so. It won't change the fact that you are misintepreting them for your own means despite them, and you, being wrong.

Now, incase you missed it, here is my entire post. The last on-topic one:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So basically what you were saying in the above post (I didn't quote all of it) is that...sure, if we kill him we're screwed...but if we don't there will be trouble anyway, so we might aswell kill him? There's no reason to though. There is no reason to kill the man. Locking him up will achieve justice. He can't act out any more crimes. Case closed.

Your elaborate Al Qaeda A-Teamesque break out was nicely scripted, but it's just not going to happen is it? Your rationale is flawed and it's you doing the damage to your own debate.

"There's trouble either way, so might as well have him dead."

If there's trouble coming anyway, why bring more by making a martyr out of Saddam? It follows no logic.

I never got that. "Put yourself in someone else's shoes." Why? I'm not them. I'd not ask someone who's just lost their loved one to say "Put yourself in my shoes, I've not lost anyone. You'll feel better." So why should I put myself in their position? I know how I would act because I've lost loved ones.

I said saying it doesn't make you cool. Where you extracted the rest from is a mystery to me.

To be on topic: What you are suggesting with regards to the death vs imprisonment debate is your personal opinion, correct? Your personal opinion follows vengeance rather than justice. As I said to Capt, justice is what we're after. Not vengeance. At least it should be. The goal is to stop criminals, not killing them because we think they're bastards.

Well, I'd rather not get into that. Though if I were asked to wager a guess on the amount of people with common sense on this forum I'd not estimate in the high 90 percent, let's say that much.

On topic once again: You are judging that Saddam be put to death because of what you feel emotionally towards the cause. Not what would work out for the best.

You saying that remark about Saddam being let back out onto the streets is stupid, unless you were being sarcastic.

I don't know whether you were referring to me or not, I'll not assume either way. What I will say is that just because I don't believe the man should be put to death, doesn't mean I believe he is exempt from justice.

I'm saying lock him up for life with no privileges. Who said he deserves to be treated differently because he has palaces? I don't believe anyone should be put to death, so infact I'm being more equal than you here.

Prison, regardless of it's failed points, is no luxury is it? Let's stop calling prison luxury. That's not exactly being realistic.

Here's the deal. If you want Saddam and his alikes to be stopped, then one can only assume it's because you don't like what they do. Putting them in prison achieves your goal. So what happens while they're in there is irrelevant isn't it?

You want these people brought to justice so they can be stopped from committing atrocities, correct? They can't commit atrocities in prison. Justice achieved. You not liking the fact that they get fed etc is just your base, barbaric need for revenge kicking in. It has nothing to do with justice being served. Once they've been halted, justice is done. Anything after that, including the overkill that IS the death penalty, is just pointless hypocricy.

Why should your dollars be spent? Why? I'll tell you why. Because you and people like you are the one's b*tching, whining and moaning about terrorists and how they should be brought to justice out of one side of your mouth. Then out of the other side, saying "As long as it's cheap."

You either want justice, or you want revenge. If life-long imprisonment, regardless of it's flaws, is not good enough, then you aren't after justice at all and you should shut your mouth.

-AC

Reply to this, any part or all of it. Or don't reply at all.

Cheerio.

-AC

Has anyone else seen this before? Another argument, that seems very similar in tone with the one, between Alpha Centauri and ___(insert name of any one of a number of KMC members here)_____.

Ironically also featuring a useless cameo by KharmaDog. Smoke/fire eh?

To be quite fair, I don't know why he's continuing being so upset. I've continually explained things, he's just refusing to accept them. I'm trying to get on topic, he's not having it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ironically also featuring a useless cameo by KharmaDog. Smoke/fire eh?

My one "useless cameo" compared to your pages and pages of standard issue AC responces, yes, it hardly seems right.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To be quite fair, I don't know why he's continuing being so upset. I've continually explained things, he's just refusing to accept them. I'm trying to get on topic, he's not having it.

-AC

Yes AC, the problem must be with all the people that you've had misunderstandings, flame wars or heated debates with. It couldn't possibly be you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All of this and it's all because of your failure to admit that you decided to dive in with an assumption (that I can't understand how you made anyway) despite me clearly clarifying that whilst you were included, you were not a sole target.

When I said you and people like you, I meant in this case the mentality you hold that others do share. You aren't part of a "problem", just not contributing to the solution. As I have proven in this debate that you are now trying to hard to run away from.

It was implied in my first post, clarified in every post thereafter (to your oblivious denial) and now here again: I don't and never did single you out. End of story. However you want to dissect and try to analyse my points, do so. It won't change the fact that you are misintepreting them for your own means despite them, and you, being wrong.

Now, incase you missed it, here is my entire post. The last on-topic one:

Using an entire thread to get out of the fact that you labelled me and have no way to prove to the contrary that you didn't? Damn, man, someone's feeling the heat. Oh and the insults, condescension, and calling me a baby in a highchair who shakes a rattle. Yeah you really respect other people, all right.

And to think I kept pace with you for 3 pages w\o calling YOU anything. Man that must really sting, knowing someone can play fair.. 🙂

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Reply to this, any part or all of it. Or don't reply at all.

Cheerio.

-AC

Ultimatums? Geez. The Vikings were right when they said
"the hanged man will kick at anything once the noose starts to tighten."

You're basically telling me that if you can't have it all you don't want any of it. I knew you would too. The kitchen's getting too hot and you want out.

Oh and leave the Cheerios that's a man's cereal. With your behavior, and your lack of willingness to account for it, you're more suited to Lucky Charms or Trix....