Rebel Alliance versus Revan's Sith Empire

Originally posted by Fishy
How does that matter, the rebel alliance could never take down Revan his most powerful stronghold. The Star Forge can keep on spitting out ships and the rebel alliance would become weaker and weaker while Revan just becomes stronger and stronger.

That and he has Sith working with him. Really the alliance might be more powerful and they might be able to beat Revan in a full out war, something that I heavily doubt. But whatever. But the rebel alliance could never ever, ever take the Star Forge down. Revan can't lose.

Ship-to-ship, we all know Revan's f*cked. That being said, the Alliance could easily repel the Sith forces until they're trapped inside the boundaries of the shield.

Then what?

The Star Forge DOES NOT CREATE SENTIENT LIFE, sentient life that is utterly necessary for Revan to have even the smallest of hopes for counter-attacking.

People tend to forget that yes, The SF crreates endless ships, fighters, droids etc...

But it does not create the manpower needed to pilot them.

Eventually the Rebel blockade will force the Sith to surrender or die. One way or another, whether it takes a week or years, the Rebels WILL ultimately find a way to take down that shield. THEY will have the endless resources and manpower, not the other way around.

That has been said, but not that elegantly or thought out. Good point. Rebels win.

Yes, that is what I am suggesting. How do you think they took down the Imperial stronghold? Special units. They know that they are doing.

Also, the Rebel Spies could very well discover that their is a shield.

Would you prefer if I played along with you and assume that the Rebels do send in a fleet(which they won't do). It doesn't help Revan much. They certainly aren't going to send in all of their fleet since a single Mon Calamari ship has more firepower than the entire Republic Fleet that was sent to destroy the SF had. They lose at most one ship.

Assuming in the unlikely event that the Rebel ship doesn't get word out to the Rebels, the Rebels are smart enough to figure out that there must be some sort of shield protecting it, since that is the only thing that could take out a ship faster than it would be able to send out a distress call.

So they are going to think of a shield instead of something else? Like a special weapon a third Death Star or something like that? All they will know is that something unknown caused a ship to crash, thats nice and all but it will not really help them.

And you said I wasn't backing up my statements? Lol. What a hypocrite.

Show me what makes these situations different.

Sith Lords. Its very easy, a commando unit would never win from a Sith Lord. Ever. Especially not when the Sith Lords outnumber the Commando's. So seriously what chance do those guys have? None. Assuming the commando's could reach the Star Forge, even the alliance would know they couldn't last a few minutes.

Besides if the Star Forge had no shields they could never ever reach the Star Forge, because of the Sith fleet in front of it. They would destroy any incoming drop ship without problems.

No, the commando's are smart enough to come in on the side of the planet facing away from the SF. There is no way for Revan to know they are coming, so the Sith who are not on the planet will do nothing to impede the commando's.

How would they do this? Seeing as the Sith fleet is orbiting the planet and the Star Forge is above a star and basically has a great view over the entire area, and do you really think that Revan would not send scouts to every area of space he couldn't see in case of a very likely attack.

Rakata Warriors and Rancors are melee fighters with no armor. A single blaster shot could down a Rakata Warriors. They will be cut down with ease. Same with the Rancors. A hundred shots every second will burn through it's skin and kill it before it can even get close enough to the commando's to even attack them.

So these 100 commando's are going to shoot all Rancors and all Rakatan scouts at the same time. Do you have any idea how unlikely that sounds, I find it unlikely that they would manage to survive the constant attacks and the courtyard but sure whatever, no loses of live and they get through without any problems.

The Mandalorians are horribly out-numbered and has the disadvantage of lesser technology. Their blasters can't fire from as far as the commando's(23m for the Mandalorians and 34m for the commando's[source, KOTOR for Mandalorians, Essential Guide to Weapons for commando's]).

The Mandelorians are also brilliant warriors, they have heavy weapons and are invisible. So they would probably surround the commando's and then suddenly start firing from covered possitions when the alliance commando's are in the middle. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in the middle of alliance and then start firing? They also have thermal detonators. They used it in the game so... These thermal detonators could probably do a lot of damage against the surrounded and cornered rebel attack squad.

But lets again assume the Mandelorians are idiots, stupid and will attack head on from a great distance giving up their only advantages for a stupid reason. Yeah then the rebels might get out. In all fairness its far more likely that many of them will be dead by the time the last Mandelorian falls, if they win that is.

Also note that their are only 10 or 12 Mandalorians on the planet. Not looking good for them, as a hundred blasters will cut them to pieces.

A 100 once managed to stop a million.

The Dark Jedi are in the Temple. There are maybe 20 of them in there. The commando's have higher explosives, which when tossed into a room with a Dark Jedi, bam, that one is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Do you think the Dark Jedi are as stupid as the Mandelorians? That they are just going to stand still in their room after a huge explosion just blew up the walls and the room next to them? They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life. And some of those people in the temple, probably all but thats an assumption on my part, were Sith Masters. High ranking Sith Lords. They would take care of the few troops that remain. Unless you are suggesting that its suddenly impossible for Sith to take out normal troops, that are probably very weakened already.

You gave no support for how much luck the Rebels would need, since it doesn't come down to just luck.

Whoever said that the Ewoks was planned?

Nobody, and thats the point they couldn't have done it without the Ewoks. Thats why they won. Luck.

They are on the far side of the planet. There is no way for them to be detected.

Check your info. Rouge Squadron is not only an elite-fighter pilot group, but also an elite commando team.

There was still plenty of room on the beach for some more ships. The Assault Shuttles are really small for how many people they carry, about the same size as the Ebon Hawk. Two could probably land in the same place, but lets say that they do have to land in seperate places. There is still fifty people per ship, enough to fight off the Rakata(which would easily be killed, as shown above), and to kill the Rancor and Mandalorians(also shown above). This could actually work to the Rebels advantage because they now have flanking positions.

You do realise they don't have engines anymore right, to land is incredibly hard. To land untouched is even harder, and to all land close to each other on a small beach, well nobody is that good. If they land at different places they might have an advantage if they can all find the temple from those places. Because who knows what the other side is doing, they won't have a clear target on the planet. They crashed there, they didn't go there on purpose.

On the flying from the side nobody could see part, I already said above that Revan would most likely have scouts in places he couldn't see limited as they would be because the Star Forge is on top of a freaking star.

The Elders had an electric fence. Wow. They must be gods. If the Elders had anything better than base defenses(such as offensive weaponry) they would have killed the Mandalorians and warrior Rakata, then opened the temple and shut down the shield, hoping someone would manage to destroy the SF.

Prove that the Mandalorians have high powered explosives and the intent of destroying the temple. It is possible that the Mandalorians didn't even care about temple.

You are also assuming that the Sith will not be thrown off balance by an unexpected explosion. The Sith would also be hurt by the explosion. It's likely that three or four Sith would die in the blast(since they are near the walls. Also, Sith can't block 100 blaster bolts. Even Mace knew he couldn't block 14, are you telling me these guys are better than him?

Go inside the Elder base next time look around they have more then just that, they have a serious lack in weapons. But they have very advanced technology and their only goal is to destroy the Star Forge. Don't you think they would have tried something to blow it up if it was possible, they do have the technology and the knowledge to create pwoerful weapons. So why wouldn't they have done it?

The Mandelorians had thermal detonators. And yes it is possible that they didn't care about the temple and didn't want to blow it up, unlikely because Mandelorians are survivors who would have no real reason to stay on that planet as it can give them nothing. But sure lets assume that they would just let the building go untouched. Maybe they did out of fear for the Sith or something, hard to say.

Have you seen how big the temple is, and where the first Sith was? If the explosion is big enough to touch them there, then the explosion would level a good part of the temple and pretty much destroy the entrance. If the explosions are anything but precise explosions it would only hurt the alliance because of the rubble.

So even if all of the Rebels would have survived, which would require well stupidy on all fronts but that of the rebel alliance they would have to run over a broken wall over rubble and then face Dark Jedi on the other end of it. They aren't going to get into the temple before the Dark Jedi reach the entrance either, because the explosion was freaking huge according to your description and they would have to be far away. Running over a half destroyed building towards the surviving Sith Lords... Not a good idea. They are dead.

Wrong. The shield was said to be projected from the planet. Destroying the temple will destroy the shield.

Go play the game again.

I split the post because it became to long.

What makes you think Malak is dumb? He had to be smart enough to become DLOS and keep his title. He was smart enough to wage a war against the Republic.

Also, it doesn't matter is Revan would see the Ebon Hawk if he was in Malak's shoes, we are talking about different ships. I've already explained how they would get through.

Well he sure wasn't the military genious Revan was, we know that much. And your explanation doesn't hold up.

Revan can't see the ships.

Your commando's don't know how to fire a gun. Just as stupid a statement. When somebody is pushed into a corner forced to retreat into one place he would make sure that the last place he owns is protected in incredible ways, and that he at least knows everything that happens everywhere. And have you ever heard of Radar, they would probably spot the ships with that. But if not they would definitly do so with the scouts.

Prove that. Revan isn't perfet, stop acting like it.

Okay, Malak was unopposed he had all the power in the world and the republic was falling, would he need to create a defense that was far greater then the defense he already had? Of course not.

Revan however is defeated and in a corner its his last stronghold, would he trust the defense that the SF has or would he add his own, probably the last. Every reasonable general would do that, and Revan is far above reasonable.
h a huge Sith fleet thats on high alert. Especially after they lose their shields

You've made more assumptions than I have in this, so you're not one to be pointing fingers.

Okay lets make a list of whats going to happen according to you

- The rebel alliance that has no idea what the SF is or does is going to send a commando unit to destroy it, knowing full well that its most likely going to be filled with Sith Lords. And that a huge fleet is protecting it. Yet still for some reason they assume the commando's could get through.

- For some reason they send these commando's towards the Rakatan planet, which has absolutely no use for them

- all ships crash at the same time and lose the ability to communicate, yet still somehow they all manage to land on the same small beach unnoticed.

- After that they leave the ships destroy Rancors and Rakatan and then for some reason the incredibly stupid Mandelorians charge them head on from a great distance. Mandelorians who can not be seen and could lay the perfect ambush, they did create an ambush against Revan when he was there. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same this time. Stronger weapons are nice but 12 heavy repeaters blasting in your ranks.. well its going to hurt.

- For some reason the rebels survive all of that then reach the temple blow it up. The Sith Lords inside are going to be as stupid as the Mandelorians and just stay in their rooms waiting to be killed. They aren't going to be outnumbered anymore by this time either so they could easily take the rebels if they would use their heads and attack. But of course they are not, because for some reason the rebels are brilliant and can do everything and all their opponents are so stupid that you would be surprised if they can tie their shoes.

- After that the temple is blown up the commando's somehow survived and for some reason they destroy the SF shields even though the shields are powered from a different location.

- After that they proceed to the Star Forge, make their way through a huge Sith fleet thats on high alert. Especially after they lose their shields

- They go into the Star Forge and blow the thing up.

Even if the first things would be possible, which they are not then it still wouln't serve any purporse, yeah the temple of ancients would be destroyed. Big deal. Who cares.

Sorry for the tripple post but well its kinda necessary here.

I'm sorry, but when I saw this one I had to respond.

Ship-to-ship, we all know Revan's f*cked. That being said, the Alliance could easily repel the Sith forces until they're trapped inside the boundaries of the shield.

Then what?

The Star Forge DOES NOT CREATE SENTIENT LIFE, sentient life that is utterly necessary for Revan to have even the smallest of hopes for counter-attacking.

People tend to forget that yes, The SF crreates endless ships, fighters, droids etc...

But it does not create the manpower needed to pilot them.

Eventually the Rebel blockade will force the Sith to surrender or die. One way or another, whether it takes a week or years, the Rebels WILL ultimately find a way to take down that shield. THEY will have the endless resources and manpower, not the other way around.

an endless siege is possible, however it would be endless Revan would be defeated in a corner of the galaxy but he would still survive because well the planet below once feed billions of poeple i'm pretty sure that if the Sith are smart they can make it feed them. And they can create droids from the inside, droids that could be programmed to fly ships into other ships. Yeah Revan would not win the war if this happens but the rebel alliance would pay a very high cost for keeping him in there. A besieged Sith Lord with weapons to attack is not going to be something you like. The Sith Empire however would eventually fall because of civil wars and shit like that.

A siege does seem like the only thing they could do, but they will pay a very high price for their victory.

Originally posted by Fishy
Sorry for the tripple post but well its kinda necessary here.

an endless siege is possible, however it would be endless Revan would be defeated in a corner of the galaxy but he would still survive because well the planet below once feed billions of poeple i'm pretty sure that if the Sith are smart they can make it feed them. And they can create droids from the inside, droids that could be programmed to fly ships into other ships. Yeah Revan would not win the war if this happens but the rebel alliance would pay a very high cost for keeping him in there. A besieged Sith Lord with weapons to attack is not going to be something you like. The Sith Empire however would eventually fall because of civil wars and shit like that.

A siege does seem like the only thing they could do, but they will pay a very high price for their victory.

What would make their seige so costly?

Also, there has been no demonstration of droids being able to effectively able to pilot ships for thousands of years after that(even the New Republic about 35 B.B.Y. had difficulty doing it). I suggest you prove that they could use this approach.

BTW, I'm not ignoring you prior post, it's just going to take me a while to read through it and such.

A few posts ago someone said that 1 Mon Cal cruiser is more powerful than the entire republic fleet i dont think so. The cruisers might be much bigger but that doesnt mean more firepower. And the rebels dont have alot of cruisers, and it doesnt matter, if they attack the star forge the huge number of sith ships not to mention the defense turrets on the SF would destroy everything the rebels have, if they get past the shield witch they wont.

But how would the rebel commandoes get past the sith they surrond the planet theirs no way to get through and if they got through they wouldnt live long their would be legions of sith and battle droids looking for them.

Originally posted by Fishy
They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life.

Because in real life the Siths are so smart!!!

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
A few posts ago someone said that 1 Mon Cal cruiser is more powerful than the entire republic fleet i dont think so. The cruisers might be much bigger but that doesnt mean more firepower. And the rebels dont have alot of cruisers, and it doesnt matter, if they attack the star forge the huge number of sith ships not to mention the defense turrets on the SF would destroy everything the rebels have, if they get past the shield witch they wont.

No one said 1 Mon Cal cruiser is stronger then the entire Republic Fleet. 1 Mon Cal cruiser can take on like 4-6 Leviathans because it has shields and better weaponry.

Actually it can take on something like 20, as I previously showed.

fisto/katarnrul, I am just going to ignore you for now on. You make no sense and demonstrate the intelligence of a 3 year old.

Originally posted by Fishy
So they are going to think of a shield instead of something else? Like a special weapon a third Death Star or something like that? All they will know is that something unknown caused a ship to crash, thats nice and all but it will not really help them.

Yeah Fishy. They will. The 4,000 year old technology on the Ebon Hawk could locate the shield - why won't advance technology be able to do the same ? Once they enter the system they will see the shield and try to take it out.

Sith Lords. Its very easy, a commando unit would never win from a Sith Lord. Ever. Especially not when the Sith Lords outnumber the Commando's. So seriously what chance do those guys have? None. Assuming the commando's could reach the Star Forge, even the alliance would know they couldn't last a few minutes.

Commandos on the Star Forge ? Why ? The Rebels will use their ground troops to destroy the shield meaning they could unleash an entire army to the Rakatan planet and there is nothing that will be able to stop them. Then they will simply blow the Star Forge away. They have no need to send Commando's in.

Besides if the Star Forge had no shields they could never ever reach the Star Forge, because of the Sith fleet in front of it. They would destroy any incoming drop ship without problems.

They don't need to get to the SF. They will take out the shield, move in, destroy anything that is present with superior firepower and destroy the SF itself.

How would they do this? Seeing as the Sith fleet is orbiting the planet and the Star Forge is above a star and basically has a great view over the entire area, and do you really think that Revan would not send scouts to every area of space he couldn't see in case of a very likely attack.

Meeeh...the Rebels aren't stupid. They will send some scouts to the system first and then approach it according to the needs. If the entire Rebel fleet invades the system that is easily enough distraction for Revan not to care about the shield generator in the temple and even if he does that: He doesn't have any instruments to stop a Rebel army flying to the planet and take it out.

So these 100 commando's are going to shoot all Rancors and all Rakatan scouts at the same time. Do you have any idea how unlikely that sounds, I find it unlikely that they would manage to survive the constant attacks and the courtyard but sure whatever, no loses of live and they get through without any problems.

Oh great. 3 (!) people can deal with all things present on the planet but 100 commandos can't do the same ?

The Mandelorians are also brilliant warriors, they have heavy weapons and are invisible. So they would probably surround the commando's and then suddenly start firing from covered possitions when the alliance commando's are in the middle. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in the middle of alliance and then start firing? They also have thermal detonators. They used it in the game so... These thermal detonators could probably do a lot of damage against the surrounded and cornered rebel attack squad.

Would 10 Mandalorians be stupid enough to attack 100s of people coming at them without having any hope to survive. And covered positions ? I didn't see much "cover" there...

Do you think the Dark Jedi are as stupid as the Mandelorians? That they are just going to stand still in their room after a huge explosion just blew up the walls and the room next to them? They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life. And some of those people in the temple, probably all but thats an assumption on my part, were Sith Masters. High ranking Sith Lords. They would take care of the few troops that remain. Unless you are suggesting that its suddenly impossible for Sith to take out normal troops, that are probably very weakened already.

As I said: The Rebels could easily dispatch and entire army to the planet and they might don't even need to get inside the tempel if they can bomb it from the outside.

You do realise they don't have engines anymore right, to land is incredibly hard. To land untouched is even harder, and to all land close to each other on a small beach, well nobody is that good. If they land at different places they might have an advantage if they can all find the temple from those places. Because who knows what the other side is doing, they won't have a clear target on the planet. They crashed there, they didn't go there on purpose.

And you realize that most of the Rebels pilots have 3 years combat experience from the Civil War at least and some of them have experience as smugglers, mercenaries and so on ? And they would have a clear target on the planet seeing that they could spot the location of the shield generator.

On the flying from the side nobody could see part, I already said above that Revan would most likely have scouts in places he couldn't see limited as they would be because the Star Forge is on top of a freaking star.

Nice. Scouts. Let the Rebels come with a few starfighter squadrons and the scouts are gone...

Go inside the Elder base next time look around they have more then just that, they have a serious lack in weapons. But they have very advanced technology and their only goal is to destroy the Star Forge. Don't you think they would have tried something to blow it up if it was possible, they do have the technology and the knowledge to create pwoerful weapons. So why wouldn't they have done it?

Respect for their ancestors...

Have you seen how big the temple is, and where the first Sith was? If the explosion is big enough to touch them there, then the explosion would level a good part of the temple and pretty much destroy the entrance. If the explosions are anything but precise explosions it would only hurt the alliance because of the rubble.

Have you seen the size of the explosion of the shield generator on Endor ? That were just a few explosives placed their. The Rebels have easily the weapons required to blow that entire island away if they need to do it.

- The rebel alliance that has no idea what the SF is or does is going to send a commando unit to destroy it, knowing full well that its most likely going to be filled with Sith Lords. And that a huge fleet is protecting it. Yet still for some reason they assume the commando's could get through.

They did send a single person (Kyle Katarn) to get rid of the entire Dark Trooper project. Why do you think they would sent their entire fleet to destroy a shield generator. This is similar to the stuff they did in ROTJ.

- For some reason they send these commando's towards the Rakatan planet, which has absolutely no use for them

As I said: They would be able to see the shield...

- all ships crash at the same time and lose the ability to communicate, yet still somehow they all manage to land on the same small beach unnoticed.

They have the location of the shield generator and will try to get near it's position and they don't have to land "unnoticed" since there is nothing that would be able to stop them.

- After that they leave the ships destroy Rancors and Rakatan and then for some reason the incredibly stupid Mandelorians charge them head on from a great distance. Mandelorians who can not be seen and could lay the perfect ambush, they did create an ambush against Revan when he was there. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same this time. Stronger weapons are nice but 12 heavy repeaters blasting in your ranks.. well its going to hurt.

It doesn't matter how they get attacked or by whom. Revan with 2 friends did kill anything on the island. Hundrets or thousand of Rebels invading it would simply do the same. Or is Revan > 100s of soldiers nowadays ?

- For some reason the rebels survive all of that then reach the temple blow it up. The Sith Lords inside are going to be as stupid as the Mandelorians and just stay in their rooms waiting to be killed. They aren't going to be outnumbered anymore by this time either so they could easily take the rebels if they would use their heads and attack. But of course they are not, because for some reason the rebels are brilliant and can do everything and all their opponents are so stupid that you would be surprised if they can tie their shoes.

Again. All those people were killed by 3 force users. You can argue that back and forth...there is nothing on that planet to stop the invasion of a Republic commando / army.

- After that the temple is blown up the commando's somehow survived and for some reason they destroy the SF shields even though the shields are powered from a different location.

Temple gone. Shields gone. It's really that easy.

- After that they proceed to the Star Forge, make their way through a huge Sith fleet thats on high alert. Especially after they lose their shields

- They go into the Star Forge and blow the thing up.

The Sith fleet is nowhere near the Rebels fleet and they simply would destroy it and they would do the same thing with the Star Forge. There is no need for them to get inside it and even if they chose to do that: 3 people were able to fight their way through it - 100s or 1000s of Rebels would be able to do the same.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
A few posts ago someone said that 1 Mon Cal cruiser is more powerful than the entire republic fleet i dont think so. The cruisers might be much bigger but that doesnt mean more firepower. And the rebels dont have alot of cruisers, and it doesnt matter, if they attack the star forge the huge number of sith ships not to mention the defense turrets on the SF would destroy everything the rebels have, if they get past the shield witch they wont.

Sorry but ROFL !

Ackbars command ship alone has 20 times more weapons than Revan's Leviathan which is the most powerful ship in Revan's entire fleet. And the Rebels easily have hundrets of ships that all top the firepower of Revan's best ships (even a Nebulon B Frigate would be a threat for the Leviathan). Add thousands of starfighters.

And the Rebels have shielding technology which wasn't very common back in Revan's time.

That means: Once the SF shields are taken out (and the Rebels have the ability to do that) Revan is screwed.

You know, I was typing up a big answer for Fishy's post, but Nai got it first. Owell, I only answered half of it by the time I saw Nai's post. Here it is:

Originally posted by Fishy
So they are going to think of a shield instead of something else? Like a special weapon a third Death Star or something like that? All they will know is that something unknown caused a ship to crash, thats nice and all but it will not really help them.

They also have the planet blockaded. That with recon-ships with powerful sensors could easily detect the field.

Originally posted by Fishy
Sith Lords. Its very easy, a commando unit would never win from a Sith Lord. Ever. Especially not when the Sith Lords outnumber the Commando's. So seriously what chance do those guys have? None. Assuming the commando's could reach the Star Forge, even the alliance would know they couldn't last a few minutes.

The Sith don't outnumber them. I don't know where you got that crap. There were maybe 20 in the Temple. If necessary, the Rebels could send in another team or a larger team of several thousand troops(even a hundred troop ships would be easy to get down to the planet. The Empire was able to hide over a hundred Star Destroyers by putting them on the far side of a planet.)

We've seen how good the force users do when they are outnumbered. There really is no reason to think these guys are much, if any better than average PT Jedi as they have seen little war(about the same as PT) and have just been sitting in a Temple for years. They haven't fought anyone in a long time.

Originally posted by Fishy
Besides if the Star Forge had no shields they could never ever reach the Star Forge, because of the Sith fleet in front of it. They would destroy any incoming drop ship without problems.

Like I said before, it is probably that the Rebels would send in a few Mon Calamari Cruisers first. These ships have superior sensors over the Ebon Hawk and would take a lot longer to crash. Unless of course you think all of the ships would go down in less than the 30 seconds or so it takes them to usually detect the shield. Remember that the Ebon Hawk got a message off. The Rebel Fleet will easily do the same thing.

BTW, the Mon Calamari Cruisers that are crashing onto the planet could very well knock out the shield as they crash onto the planet because of their impact force.

Originally posted by Fishy
How would they do this? Seeing as the Sith fleet is orbiting the planet and the Star Forge is above a star and basically has a great view over the entire area, and do you really think that Revan would not send scouts to every area of space he couldn't see in case of a very likely attack.

Do you have any proof that Revan would send scouts? You need to realize that Revan isn't some perfect commander capable of perfectly viewing every situation. The fact that even with greater ship production, more experinced troops, and an a force almost equal with the Republic's he couldn't take them down for years shows he sucks compared to Ackbar. Against the Empire, the Rebels were outnumbered over 20 times worse than Revan was. The Empire had greater numbers of planets to draw new recruits from and plenty of darksiders(even one of the Grand Admirals was a Darksider.). Don't try to argue that the Republic only held out because of Bastila and her battle meditation because both Palpatine and that Grand Admiral I mentioned before(I don't remember his name at the moment) were masters at battle meditation. The only thing that the Rebels had in their favor was the galaxies greatest leader. That's the same advantage Revan's Empire had, yet the Rebel's got a much greater result. Perhaps this means something about who the better commander is....

If the Sith were orbiting the planet, how did the Ebon Hawk get through? The Sith cared about all the ships on Taris, why would they let a cargo ship fly through somewhere so close to their base. They wouldn't. The reason is that the Sith Fleet was engaged elsewhere. There was just a small compliment of ships at the SF, which were kept near it to protect it. There wasn't some huge fleet blockading the planet. The Duros(I don't know how exactly you would state some from there. The bluish, purplish guys with big heads, like the Bith) said that the Sith made occasional fly-bys, but they wouldn't have needed to do that if they had a fleet orbiting the planet, they could just look down.

Do you even understand how dumb it sounds when you say that they could see them because they were by the star. Just think about it logically for a moment. They are entering on the night side of the planet. Everything is blocked by the sensors, even the sensors. The SF can't see them.

Originally posted by Fishy
So these 100 commando's are going to shoot all Rancors and all Rakatan scouts at the same time. Do you have any idea how unlikely that sounds, I find it unlikely that they would manage to survive the constant attacks and the courtyard but sure whatever, no loses of live and they get through without any problems.

The Courtyard? What exactly are you refering to?

BTW, only on commando has to shoot a Rakata to kill it. They don't were any armor. THe Rakata are a non-factor.

The Rancor's aren't much better either. There were never more than two Rancors in any one attack. Thats 45 blasters per Rancor, allowing the other ten men to kill the Rakata. The Rancor is screwed.

Note, you seem to be assuming that the Rebels will only have blasters and light blaster rifles. They are also going to bring in heavier weapons such as T-21 Repeating blaster. These are better than the Mandalorian ones and can cut up armor with ease.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Mandelorians are also brilliant warriors, they have heavy weapons and are invisible. So they would probably surround the commando's and then suddenly start firing from covered possitions when the alliance commando's are in the middle. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in the middle of alliance and then start firing? They also have thermal detonators. They used it in the game so... These thermal detonators could probably do a lot of damage against the surrounded and cornered rebel attack squad.

Cornered? Lol! Please do tell how 10 Mandalorians are going to corner 100 Rebel Commando's. Or that all of the Rebels are going to be standing in a clump just waiting to be hit by thermal detonators. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in a big clump and let the Mandalorians surround them and toss grenades at them and then start firing?

Originally posted by Fishy
But lets again assume the Mandelorians are idiots, stupid and will attack head on from a great distance giving up their only advantages for a stupid reason. Yeah then the rebels might get out. In all fairness its far more likely that many of them will be dead by the time the last Mandelorian falls, if they win that is.

Even if the Mandalorians do move in close, they are out-numbered 10-1. No many of the Rebels will die. They have armor too.

Originally posted by Fishy
A 100 once managed to stop a million.

Irrelevent. There were no such things as grenades back them. No way to dislodge an opponent. There is in this senario.

Originally posted by Fishy
Do you think the Dark Jedi are as stupid as the Mandelorians? That they are just going to stand still in their room after a huge explosion just blew up the walls and the room next to them? They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life. And some of those people in the temple, probably all but thats an assumption on my part, were Sith Masters. High ranking Sith Lords. They would take care of the few troops that remain. Unless you are suggesting that its suddenly impossible for Sith to take out normal troops, that are probably very weakened already.

Yes. Real life. Maybe you should come back to it.

Prove that the Sith will be any smarter in "real life" than they were in the game. These guys have been sitting idle for years.

Just like Ki-Adi Mundi, perhaps. High-ranking Jedi Master who is arguably just as good as a Sith Master, yet five troops cut him down. Not good for the Sith.

Originally posted by Fishy
Nobody, and thats the point they couldn't have done it without the Ewoks. Thats why they won. Luck.

"It is my experince that there is no such thing as luck."

You really can't compare 15 commando's against an entire legion of Stormtroopers who have heavy equipment to 100 commando's vs. primitive people who fight with sticks, a few war beast, defeated warriors, and a few surprised Sith. Different Situations. Your statement doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Fishy
You do realise they don't have engines anymore right, to land is incredibly hard. To land untouched is even harder, and to all land close to each other on a small beach, well nobody is that good. If they land at different places they might have an advantage if they can all find the temple from those places. Because who knows what the other side is doing, they won't have a clear target on the planet. They crashed there, they didn't go there on purpose.

Because they weren't planning on going there. The Rebels are. They don't need their engines, there is something called "projected landing" that they can use to calculate to within a few meters where they will land and where they need to be when they lose engines to land at that location.

Originally posted by Fishy
On the flying from the side nobody could see part, I already said above that Revan would most likely have scouts in places he couldn't see limited as they would be because the Star Forge is on top of a freaking star.

YOu haven't proved that. Unless you can, it cannot be considered as relevent to this situation and is mute.

Originally posted by Fishy
Go inside the Elder base next time look around they have more then just that, they have a serious lack in weapons. But they have very advanced technology and their only goal is to destroy the Star Forge. Don't you think they would have tried something to blow it up if it was possible, they do have the technology and the knowledge to create pwoerful weapons. So why wouldn't they have done it?

They have technology that is WAY primitive. They couldn't defeat people who fight with STICKS. They are weak. They don't have long range weapons and explosives, meaning that the Sith would kill them. The Mandalorians can kill them with one shot to the chest. They don't stand a chance, they are screwed.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Mandelorians had thermal detonators. And yes it is possible that they didn't care about the temple and didn't want to blow it up, unlikely because Mandelorians are survivors who would have no real reason to stay on that planet as it can give them nothing. But sure lets assume that they would just let the building go untouched. Maybe they did out of fear for the Sith or something, hard to say.

Which wouldn't surprise me. The Sith outnumber them 2-1. The only way to kill a Jedi/Sith unless you are uber is to poison them hit them with a grenade or heavily outnumber them. The Mandalorians can do none of those at this point.

Originally posted by Fishy
Have you seen how big the temple is, and where the first Sith was? If the explosion is big enough to touch them there, then the explosion would level a good part of the temple and pretty much destroy the entrance. If the explosions are anything but precise explosions it would only hurt the alliance because of the rubble.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of blowing in one of the side walls. There is just a hallway seperating the wall and 6 or so Sith. That's 8 feet or so. And since the Temple is so huge, it will be easy to hit them and not cause much damage to the rest of the Temple.

Rubble will hurt the Sith more than the Rebels because the Rebels don't have to be by the Sith to hurt them. The Sith need to be.

Originally posted by Fishy
So even if all of the Rebels would have survived, which would require well stupidy on all fronts but that of the rebel alliance they would have to run over a broken wall over rubble and then face Dark Jedi on the other end of it. They aren't going to get into the temple before the Dark Jedi reach the entrance either, because the explosion was freaking huge according to your description and they would have to be far away. Running over a half destroyed building towards the surviving Sith Lords... Not a good idea. They are dead.

They don't have to cross the rubble to hurt the Sith, but the Sith have to cross it to hurt them. No, it's not a huge explosion, it has maybe a 12 foot radius.

Originally posted by Fishy
Go play the game again.

Wow. What an answer. All of the evidence supporting it is amazing.

Royally.

Are you just going to ignore the rest of my post, i'll answer this when you have answered that. To tired to do it now anyways.

Edit: Sorry Nai missed your post, well same goes for that post really i'll come back on it later. But you seem to think the rebels will do things differently then Glentract.

Now in your idea, you are forgetting the fact that the shield blocks readings. The Ebon Hawk didn't know shit until they got into the shields and by that time its to late to contact the rest of the fleet and tell them what you have seen because well your communication weapons don't work anymore.

Now a scout therefor would be of no use, commando's wouldn't know where to go unless they were in. And it stands to reason that the primary target would be the target they know off. The Star Forge. They won't know of anything but the Star Forge unless they are in the shields in which case they will most likely crash on the planet if they enter the sector from the right direction that is. Flying through half of the system to land on the planet, well with a fleet there it might be hard to do. Especially when you don't have any more fire power.

The point is, that they won't know of the shield and everyting they throw at the Star Forge would need to be extremely lucky to destroy the temple of ancients, because very few people have the skills to do something like that and its unlikely that the Jedi are going to be send there.

The idea that a commando unit is going to be send to the Star Forge is even crazier because they would by all logic be destroyed before they could ever reach the Star Forge and the alliance would know that.

The way I see it, they can not get a clear target and therefor never know whats going on. They could perhaps reach the planet but without being detected? Very unlikely. And without some heavy firepower from ships you are not going to destroy the Sith fleet bombing you. Its going to take an extreme amount of coincidences for them to find the thing know what its going to do and destroy it right away. Because lets face it, if you are the rebellion and you have Revan cornered there you have two real options.

1.) Try to destroy him and his troops with a few commando's like Glentract suggested.

This is however crazy to say the least, every commando drop ship would be destroyed by a far more powerful fleet, if there were no shields. Even if they could somehow magically reach the Star Forge they would still have to face god knows how many Sith Lords of power apprentices and Star Forge droids, which are capable destroying Jedi. The alliance won't know that, but they will know its the base of Revan his power, so they would know that the commando's even when supported by the few Jedi they have stand no chance.

2.) Send in the fleet and destroy the Star Forge, in which case the shields will start working.

Personally I believe that they would find ou they can't enter the system, they might do a few things try to get around it. But I don't think they will work, because well basically they have no information other then the fact that they are crashing. They might make a superweapon and blow the Star Forge up. Possible, I don'treally think its their style but possible or they would just simply lay siege on Revan his fleet and the Star Forge.

Basically destroying all of the Sith but their last stronghold trying to keep it in an iron grip. Guess this turned out as a longer post then I planned... anyways i'll get back to you on this later.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry but ROFL !

Ackbars command ship alone has 20 times more weapons than Revan's Leviathan which is the most powerful ship in Revan's entire fleet. And the Rebels easily have hundrets of ships that all top the firepower of Revan's best ships (even a Nebulon B Frigate would be a threat for the Leviathan). Add thousands of starfighters.

And the Rebels have shielding technology which wasn't very common back in Revan's time.

That means: Once the SF shields are taken out (and the Rebels have the ability to do that) Revan is screwed.

The leviathan is not the most powereful ship in revans army its just Saul Kareths flagship.And sheilding was very common in Revans time every ship had it almost

Glentract, you said the rebels could have a projected landing i dont see how thats possible with any rebel ships if you looked around on the planet youd see every ship landed wrong and was destroyed or irrepairible

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
The leviathan is not the most powereful ship in revans army its just Saul Kareths flagship.And sheilding was very common in Revans time every ship had it almost

Can you prove that? Can you prove the Leviathan wasn't Revan's strongest ship and can you prove the ships had shields.