Teens Arrested in Alleged Massacre Plot

@AC (just in case someone posts while Im typing)

No, but you and JP seem to be having a black and white argument. Im sitting in the grey area. Im not saying they are to blame, but Im not saying theyre not.

What about the school expulsion though? Shouldnt they have followed it up? Im not saying they didnt, but if they did, they should have figured something was wrong with their kids and could have been in a position to prevent it.

The 'maybe not 100% idiotic parenting', doesnt mean they arent wholly idiotic, but it doesnt mean they are either. You were right about the lack of knowledge on their part, and sure we're all basing stuff off what we assume, but the report had nothing about the parents involvement (nothing that I can remember), so of course everyone will make their own opinions and assumptions.. They might not have even had parents, I wasnt paying attention, I have to read back, but still, they should have guardians or family members looking after them being 15 and 17.

I dont know how to word anymore, so Ill wait for a reply. 🙂

Originally posted by Mišt
@AC (just in case someone posts while Im typing)

No, but you and JP seem to be having a black and white argument. Im sitting in the grey area. Im not saying they are to blame, but Im not saying theyre not.

What about the school expulsion though? Shouldnt they have followed it up? Im not saying they didnt, but if they did, they should have figured something was wrong with their kids and could have been in a position to prevent it.

Well as I said to JP, school explulsion is something to notice (we don't know if they did or not, to my knowledge). However, in my opinion the first thing that springs to mind is that the problem would be within school. If you got a phone call saying "Your son/daughter has been kicked out of school", would you immediately assume that it's because of something shitty at home or that something is drastically wrong with your child? School expulsions aren't rare nowadays. It can happen for the littlest things.

Originally posted by Mišt
The 'maybe not 100% idiotic parenting', doesnt mean they arent wholly idiotic, but it doesnt mean they are either. You were right about the lack of knowledge on their part, and sure we're all basing stuff off what we assume, but the report had nothing about the parents involvement (nothing that I can remember), so of course everyone will make their own opinions and assumptions.. They might not have even had parents, I wasnt paying attention, I have to read back, but still, they should have guardians or family members looking after them being 15 and 17.

I think the fact that they were 15 and more importantly, 17, is being dangerously overlooked. The guy might have been on the verge of being legal, we don't know. You can't just "look out" for an older teen. JP was continually (intentional or not, I'm not gonna assume she meant it because she may not have) giving off the impression that it's quite easy to keep tabs on any kids. It's not. Far from it. Once you allow your children (loose usage) out the door of their own free will, to roam the free world, then your ability to keep tabs on them is restricted to trust, questioning and searching. The latter not necessarily being a regular occurance if they're not giving you any reason to search. If you search your kids rooms independently of having any reason to, then I'm gonna suggest that you have many more problems than the fear of your kids getting involved in dangerous stuff.

JP is all too fast to use the self-righteous stance of "I'm a parent." Not only is that a cheap way out but it also diminishes the point. She's a parent and to my understanding, it's been a good few decades since she has been a teenager. For her to assume she still has a relevant and potent outlook on what teen behaviour in general is in 2005, is hypocritical. Things have changed. She's hinted that she sticks to how she was raised, and my mum somewhat adheres to that too. It's a very old fashioned outlook. "It's how I was raised." Instilling independence into your child has become more important so as a result, it's harder to keep tabs on kids. Punishment is much more passive now than it was back in the day (and I'm sure we've all heard the genuine "In my day..." rants by older folk) and as a result, the combination of that and the heightened importance of independence means that kids are more un-trackable than they were. So while these older parents may still live in the world where it's easy to rule your teens with an iron fist, that's not the case anymore. From what I've seen, those people who DO still rule their kids with an iron fist, end up having miserable kids. I'm not applying that experience to anyone else, just speaking for me. My brother raised his kids like that. Not mean but by no means ultra nice. Now they do well in school, never been in any major trouble. Up until recently though, they lived a life as miserable as sin. As soon as they hit school, out of Dad's reach, the "being naughty" phase started.

Keeping tabs isn't anywhere near as easy as it seems. Or at least as easy as you're making it seem.

People have argued that the expulsion was reason. Why was that reason to search a room? Think about it. "Your kid has been expelled." I guarantee you that the first thought in a parents mind, a decent parents mind, is that it's an in-school situation. These parents might have not been horrid or neglecting parents, we don't know. Hence my point of JP's first comment being wrong.

To say "Where the feck are the idiot parents?" with regards to two mid to late teens respectively, is outrageous.

-AC

I just read through the report thing again, I didnt understand that they got expelled from the school they were planning to attack, I thought they got expelled from previous experience and were attacking their current school. So my arguments towards the expulsion factor probably dont make much sense now 😬

Actually, now Im less inclinced to blame idiotic parenting 😬
Ill just post what I was going to anyway, but I suppose this would probably be the last thing towards my opinion.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well as I said to JP, school explulsion is something to notice (we don't know if they did or not, to my knowledge). However, in my opinion the first thing that springs to mind is that the problem would be within school. If you got a phone call saying "Your son/daughter has been kicked out of school", would you immediately assume that it's because of something shitty at home or that something is drastically wrong with your child? School expulsions aren't rare nowadays. It can happen for the littlest things.

I wouldnt blame home as the reason for starting whatever happened in the school, but it could be the place to finish what happened at the school by talking to them, finding out why they did whatever they did and so on. I know of plenty of people who have had their kids suspended or expelled for fighting, and they've talked to their kids, found out what the problems were and helped solve them for the next school they go to. Finding out whether it was a result of something shitty at school or something wrong with the kid themselves should be the concern.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I think the fact that they were 15 and more importantly, 17, is being dangerously overlooked. The guy might have been on the verge of being legal, we don't know. You can't just "look out" for an older teen. JP was continually (intentional or not, I'm not gonna assume she meant it because she may not have) giving off the impression that it's quite easy to keep tabs on any kids. It's not. Far from it. Once you allow your children (loose usage) out the door of their own free will, to roam the free world, then your ability to keep tabs on them is restricted to trust, questioning and searching. The latter not necessarily being a regular occurance if they're not giving you any reason to search. If you search your kids rooms independently of having any reason to, then I'm gonna suggest that you have many more problems than the fear of your kids getting involved in dangerous stuff.

People have argued that the expulsion was reason. Why was that reason to search a room? Think about it. "Your kid has been expelled." I guarantee you that the first thought in a parents mind, a decent parents mind, is that it's an in-school situation. These parents might have not been horrid or neglecting parents, we don't know. Hence my point of JP's first comment being wrong.

To say "Where the feck are the idiot parents?" with regards to two mid to late teens respectively, is outrageous.

-AC

I dont think this would have caused so much blame on the parents if the 15 year old was older. But being 15, they are still under the responsibilty of an adult and shouldnt even come to the point where they want to kill students and themselves just because they were picked on. So assumption is that the parents are to blame.

Expulsion could be enough reason to search their rooms, depending on the reason. If the reason was say, drugs or alcohol, they can search the rooms just based off suspicion. If it was threatening someone with a lethal weapon etc, they can search under suspicion as well. Disciplinary reasons, isnt really specific enough....but you would assume discipline should be the parents responsibilty to teach them. This doesnt really give a reason to search someones room, but it goes towards a mark against the parents. Again, an unclarified point, the parents could have discplined them fine, and the kids could have been ignorant. Or they could not have been disciplined, but we dont know, so end of that point.

I guess my argument is up seeing as I misread the report and have changed thoughts. 🙂

[edit] Just noticed you edited a large part in, I wont change mine to reply, Ill just leave what Ive done. But one thing Ill add to that part was I agree that today, more kids rebel more...uhh...'extremely' than previous decades. Things have changed from the way people are brought up, but thats the parents responsibilty.

Originally posted by Mišt
I wouldnt blame home as the reason for starting whatever happened in the school, but it could be the place to finish what happened at the school by talking to them, finding out why they did whatever they did and so on. I know of plenty of people who have had their kids suspended or expelled for fighting, and they've talked to their kids, found out what the problems were and helped solve them for the next school they go to. Finding out whether it was a result of something shitty at school or something wrong with the kid themselves should be the concern.

We don't know that they DIDN'T do this. Moreover, if a parent is doing a good job at home and their kid is smart enough to put up that facade also, why would they have any reason to say "Is it anything at home?" in this instance? To add to that, no amount of asking - unless it's by authorities (in which case kids can get scared) - will often force a kid to admit. I don't believe for a second it would have happened in the way of the parents saying "Is something wrong?" and the kids revealing it.

Originally posted by Mišt
I dont think this would have caused so much blame on the parents if the 15 year old was older. But being 15, they are still under the responsibilty of an adult and shouldnt even come to the point where they want to kill students and themselves just because they were picked on. So assumption is that the parents are to blame.

Why though? That's what I have a problem with. Why are the parents to blame by default? I mean yes, at a very young age, the parents are held more responsible. However, once they get to older ages, why are the parents to blame for what the kids do or how they act? As said before: If you raise your kid "right" and he still goes off the rails, the parents can't exactly be blamed. If the damage is already done by the parents, they share the blame but not the blame for what a kid may do as the result of the damage.

That's about all I can see anything to reply to since the explusion/search thing has now been sorted out.

-AC

The former Quartz Hill High students, whose names were not released, were arrested Thursday after searches of their homes turned up knives, ammunition, a gas mask and bomb-making instructions downloaded from the Internet, according to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

This law still baffles me. I guess plotting an attack doesn't make you mature enough to be able to face the public with your name in circulation if you're under 18.

Oh wait, maybe I'm right.

I dont know why they are blamed by default, that's just the general assumption. Its like when he was prosecuted, the 15 year old goes to juvenile court or whatever it was, even though he did equal the charge. He is too young to be accounted solely for his own actions, even though everyone can see that it was entirely his own choice and doing. He could have been driving underage, and his parents would still have been blamed, even if they had no idea. If he was an 18 year old, or whatever the adult age is in his country, parents probably wouldnt have come into it. Just the way it goes.

Planning to kill people just because they were teased is a pissy excuse really. It must have been something pretty heavy if they would lie to their parents when confronted to why they were expelled.

Yes but in that case the parents are "blamed" because they are still legally responsible. It's a technicality in the event of good parents.

The kids chose what they wanted to do, nobody else. People seem to forget that. A lot of people seemingly believe that parents are always responsible in every aspect, which is ridiculous.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes but in that case the parents are "blamed" because they are still legally responsible. It's a technicality in the event of good parents.

The kids chose what they wanted to do, nobody else. People seem to forget that. A lot of people seemingly believe that parents are always responsible in every aspect, which is ridiculous.

-AC

Should schools not have Councillors and Disciplinary prefects ?

People that are trained to work together to single out the students that suffer from abuse by other class-mates, the elders as well as drugs ?

Do they exist ?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
it's not necessarily a case of idiot parenting is it?

"necessarily"? no. probably? yes.