Sidious - The Debate

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like I said, personally I blame Lucas's like for 'small scale' type things and a lack of necessity to use massive force powers. Lucas tends to leave a lot to the EU....but I am curious: Where is it shown Palpatine recovered holocrons from Korriban? If he had them, he'd have used them...and the Ancient Sith were a bit shocked to learn Vader was dead

This confuses me. Why do you think he would show everything in EU but not in the movies?

A lot of people were shocked to know Vader was dead. Vader could have lived on after ROTJ if he had been able to live with the crimes he had done. He couldn't and so he let himself go. That could very well be what surprised them the most.

1. Him sustaining himself was more the Jedi imprisoning him...it was a failure on Kun's part...and his beating Luke was mainly Kyp Durron as Luke didn't want to hurt Kyp....not sure what you meant with Nadd there....and Ragnos died of natural causes, so that IS a big plus for him...

2. Luke is never shown using the Kaiburr crystal...and Luke moves a black hole once're twice. I agree with the fighting blind argument, but Sadow had a lot of factors: it wasn't all him at all.

3. That they use the term 'strongest' and 'most powerful' ;eads me in that direction...and Glentract, PLEASE tell me where it is even hinted that he used ANY artifacts...it never is.

4. Covered this already.

5. By this logic, noone can use the bathroom...just because they don't do it in the movies, doesn't mean it can't happen in the books, otherwise Sidious is strongest by virtue of existing in SW.

6. Oh, Yoda was quite the warrior Jedi. He says this himself in Dark Rendevous. Like I said: He subdued a veritable nest of Dark energy on Dagobah, killed a large group of Dark Jedi-powerful ones- and managed to take on a huge group of Dathomiri witches.

7. Unfair to use that. Just because A fighter>B fighter doesn't mean A fighter> C fighter....Obi-wan taught Anakin to fight, they'd trained together, they'd fought together. Obi-wan'd know his moves. And by that point, Anakin was insane with grief and rage over Padme's 'betrayal'. Hell, Obi lost to Dooku, but anakin killed Dooku. The issue is, he doesn't do much in the movies period. He has great dialogue, but little chance to ever show off.

I'd think Palpatine frying Vader's suit to hell and back was a bit detrimental to his survival, it's pretty much been confirmed Palpatine's lightning mortally wounded him...a lot of EU stuff Lucas hardly takes note of and lets them do as they will. He relies on EU to show off characters and create backstories- a la Grievous.

Granted on the point a lot of people were shocked...but this was 6-7 years after Endor. Vader's death was common knowledge by then. The Sith themselves on Korriban only learned on it at Emperor's End, which was the first time Sidious had seen them in years

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Bevel was just a joke. 😛

He locked himself in the temple to protect himself from the thousands of Jedi that were knocking at his door. Whether or not he went crazy he was still able to sustain himself after death and defeat Luke [b]after Luke had defeated Sidious in a mortal form.

Nadd wasn't on Korriban, he was on Dxun. Where is the proof that it was the darkside that kept them there. There were plenty of other darkside places that could have kept others alive.

Ragnos could very well have come back if he his servents were as good as Palpatine's.

When did Luke ever move a star? Naga using amulets relates to the whole naked fighting argument I was telling you about? Also, the power for the ship has to come from somewhere. Naga had to have been able to generate that kind of power, the ship just helped him channel it.

BTW, Luke has a artifact too. Its the Kaiburr Crystal.

He got the artifacts from the Ancient Sith Lords. Also note that mightest may very well be referring to his position in the galaxy as Emperor, rather then his power in the Force.

If you could list, them that would be helpful, if not, owell.

The movies are the highest level of canon. If they can't do it in the movies, then they can't do it in the books. That's just the way it is, no way around it. Also, how do you know what Lucas was aiming for?

Any proof that Yoda is as powerful as you say he is? Yoda was a diplomat unlike the Jedi thousands of years before him.

I thought you were referring to OT Vader.

Vader still wasn't very powerful in the grand scale of things. Remember that he lost to Obi-wan and that Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku. Hence Vader obviously isn't 80% as powerful as Sidious in the movies, which are a higher level of canon then GL himself, and isn't very powerful. [/B]

A couple things;

"He locked himself in the temple to protect himself from the thousands of Jedi that were knocking at his door. Whether or not he went crazy he was still able to sustain himself after death and defeat Luke after Luke had defeated Sidious in a mortal form."

Luke never defeated Sidious, it took him AND leia just to interrupt the massive force storm Sidious was going to use to kill the Repulice fleet which in turn killed him(temporarily). In fact later in the comics when Sidious comes back he easily defeats the jedi defense force gathered to protect anikan with luke included(while he was dieing).

"Ragnos could very well have come back if he his servents were as good as Palpatine's. "

Yeah he did come back in JA, and was defeated by Jaden Korr. 😐

"He got the artifacts from the Ancient Sith Lords. Also note that mightest may very well be referring to his position in the galaxy as Emperor, rather then his power in the Force."

I really dont remember Sidious at any time using any artifacts to boost his power, proof? And for the second point that wishy washy thinking has no place here, if the ancient sith say he is the mightiest of them it means he was indeed the most powerful. Any other interpretation simply doesnt make much sense.

"Vader still wasn't very powerful in the grand scale of things. Remember that he lost to Obi-wan and that Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku. Hence Vader obviously isn't 80% as powerful as Sidious in the movies, which are a higher level of canon then GL himself, and isn't very powerful."

OT Vader is 80% of Sidious, ROTS anikan is much weaker hence his loss in ROTS in contrast to Obi wans submission in ANH because he knew he couldnt win. The reasons for this Ive said many times before, OT Vader may have lost some potential in ROTS but greatly makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience.

"He locked himself in the temple to protect himself from the thousands of Jedi that were knocking at his door. Whether or not he went crazy he was still able to sustain himself after death and defeat Luke after Luke had defeated Sidious in a mortal form."

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Luke never defeated Sidious, it took him AND leia just to interrupt the massive force storm Sidious was going to use to kill the Repulice fleet which in turn killed him(temporarily). In fact later in the comics when Sidious comes back he easily defeats the jedi defense force gathered to protect anikan with luke included(while he was dieing).

According to what I have seen he did defeat him in lightsaber combat and then tried to use a force storm on him.

"Ragnos could very well have come back if he his servents were as good as Palpatine's. "

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"Yeah he did come back in JA, and was defeated by Jaden Korr. 😐

Because of crappy servents.

"He got the artifacts from the Ancient Sith Lords. Also note that mightest may very well be referring to his position in the galaxy as Emperor, rather then his power in the Force."

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"I really dont remember Sidious at any time using any artifacts to boost his power, proof? And for the second point that wishy washy thinking has no place here, if the ancient sith say he is the mightiest of them it means he was indeed the most powerful. Any other interpretation simply doesnt make much sense.

Any proof that Sidious was said to be that? Screen shot perhaps?

Even if Naga did use technology, it's not like he's going to be fighting without them.

"Vader still wasn't very powerful in the grand scale of things. Remember that he lost to Obi-wan and that Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku. Hence Vader obviously isn't 80% as powerful as Sidious in the movies, which are a higher level of canon then GL himself, and isn't very powerful."

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"OT Vader is 80% of Sidious, ROTS anikan is much weaker hence his loss in ROTS in contrast to Obi wans submission in ANH because he knew he couldnt win. The reasons for this Ive said many times before, OT Vader may have lost some potential in ROTS but greatly makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience.

His experince is far lesser then most other Siths, as is his knowledge. The movies, which are above a Lucas quote show that Vader is less then 80% as powerful.

It's true. Luke did defeat Sidious, though he did have Leia's Force attunement and Anakin Solo's Force attunement combining his strengths.

Yeah I knew Luke challenged him to a lightsaber duel and hung in there with him but I thought that it was like a stalemate until Sidious was like 'enough of these games' and used force storm.

So...time for me to participate in this "debate" since some people mentioned my name here (meh...Top 5 debater ? Faunus puts himself below me ?).

To solve the problem here I'd like to go back to the beginning of this thread to the so called "proof" for Sidious superiority. What do we have ?

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:
"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

As much as I love sourcebooks but the problem is that they only gather evidence from the actual sources. So if Sidious is called the "most powerful" in the comic he's the "most powerful" in the sourcebook. Still that referes to DE Sidious and I will show you why this is important later.

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Again referring to DE Sidious.

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

Kevin J. Anderson can rank his own creations and I won't argue that. Still...to which Sidious is he comparing them ? The Sidious we have seen in the movies was obviously not able to reproduce the feats of Kun, Sadow or Ragnos.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Oh. This is useless. The only "official" response that can be given on that issue would come from Lucas himself. Not from somebody at TFN.

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Meh...this is just quoting the DE sourcebook which is quoting the comic. Pretty much useless as well...

The basic error people (and with "people" I mean Escape and Lightsnake) are sticking to is the assumption that there is not difference between PT Sidious, OT Sidious and DE Sidious. And sorry to say that but you're wrong.

Obviously there is a difference between them and that would be 20 years of experience between PT and OT Sidious and another 10 years of experience between OT and DE Sidious. The next point is that Sidious plundered the knowledge of the Jedi Temple after the PT (and they had tons of Sith knowledge in there as EU sources state) and gathered other sources for knowledge between the OT and DE.
The next thing is that he gathered some artifacts that he - as far as we know - didn't have or didn't use during the OT and the PT.

So there is no way to say that Sidious / Palpatine as we have experienced him in the DE comics is exactly the same that we have seen in the films. He simply isn't. I won't argue that DE Sidious is one of the most powerful if not the most powerful Sith we have seen so far but he's far more powerful then he was in the OT or the PT because it wouldn't make any sense that he gathered new knowledge and artifacts and didn't become more powerful. That's illogical.

And basically we have proof that he didn't have all the power he has shown in the DE comics back in the PT or OT era. Why would he plan and conspire for such a long time to take over the Republic if it must have been quite easy for him to do that with sheer force power ? Why didn't he just curbstomp the Jedi ? Why didn't he destroy Yoda and Mace ?

The last two things I want to add are directly taken from ROTS.

1)
If Sidious with the power he had during the PT was already the greatest Sith Lord that ever lived - why didn't he have the powers of his former master Plagueis ? Obviously he was inferior to Plagueis and to such an extend that he had to kill his former master while he was sleeping. He was even inferior to Plagueis during the OT (since he still wasn't immortal) and he even was inferior to Plagueis in DE times since he didn't find immortality. Funny...isn't it ?

2)
Lucas himself said that Mace Windu overpowered Sidious. Now if Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever even in the PT how can the second best Jedi overpower him ? And think about that statement. Wouldn't that logically mean that Mace and Yoda would be able to destroy every other Sith Lord (Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh) when they were on par with the most powerful ?

Conclusion
It's really easy. I won't argue that DE Sidious is one of the most powerful beings we have seen in the SW universe so far but I'd like to lay emphasize on the DE. The Sidious / Palpatine we have experienced in the OT and in the PT is obviously not as powerful as the DE version. He's not even as powerful as his own former master meaning he can't be the "most powerful Sith Lord" ever at this time.
That statement might be true for DE Sidious (who's so powerful that you basically don't need to place him in versus matches - which I've said on multiple ocassions) but it surely isn't true for PT / OT Sidious / Palpatine.

Nai over

Some thought for Lightsnake:

If Palpatine is more powerful than any other Sith, then why?:

Why didn't he beat the living daylights out of Mace Windu? George Lucas confirms on the DVD commentary that "Mace overpowers Sidious in this scene." ?

Why didn't he spawn a wormhole to suck Yoda into oblivion? If he is that powerful too, why did he try and run from Yoda? Also, how was Yoda able to deflect his lightning if he is so powerful?

How does Vader kill him? Surely if he was that powerful, He would have just imploded Vader's head or something.

Wht didn't he conjure up a force storm to; a) wipe out the Rebel fleet at Endor? Or b) wipe out the Jedi temple with it?

If Sidious is really powerful, then why does he have to ask for help from the Ancient Sith in the first place?

If Sidious is on a higher tier than Freddon Nadd, then why doesn't he conquer planets by himself? Nadd could do it with a blaster and a short lightsabre, Sidious has far more equipment, he could technically obliterate the rebels!

If Palpatine is so powerful, then why didn't he just kill Plageous outright? Killing someone in his sleep suggests that he was scared of his master.

I don't think Lucas would ever put in characters who were to instantly defeat someone at duels. Even if one would be uber compared to others, Lucas would probably still let the lightsaber duels be like the tennismatch argument from Ushgarak.
Those lightsaber duels are just unpredictable but I think it is highly possible that Sidious' connection to the force surpasses Yoda's if Anakins was already out of scale.

Of course whatever theory sounds most plausible, people would probably never accept it anyway because Yoda is everybodies favorite.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Some thought for Lightsnake:

If Palpatine is more powerful than any other Sith, then why?:

Why didn't he beat the living daylights out of Mace Windu? George Lucas confirms on the DVD commentary that "Mace overpowers Sidious in this scene." ?

Why didn't he spawn a wormhole to suck Yoda into oblivion? If he is that powerful too, why did he try and run from Yoda? Also, how was Yoda able to deflect his lightning if he is so powerful?

How does Vader kill him? Surely if he was that powerful, He would have just imploded Vader's head or something.

Wht didn't he conjure up a force storm to; a) wipe out the Rebel fleet at Endor? Or b) wipe out the Jedi temple with it?

If Sidious is really powerful, then why does he have to ask for help from the Ancient Sith in the first place?

If Sidious is on a higher tier than Freddon Nadd, then why doesn't he conquer planets by himself? Nadd could do it with a blaster and a short lightsabre, Sidious has far more equipment, he could technically obliterate the rebels!

If Palpatine is so powerful, then why didn't he just kill Plageous outright? Killing someone in his sleep suggests that he was scared of his master.

1. I just think Lucas meant physically overpowered him.

2.Some good points. Sidious is over confident and all, but, still...

3.Vader caught him off guard. Vader had been his servant for a long time and then all of a sudden he snatches him up.

4. a) Over confidence, I guess, he thought he had it in the bag.
b) He needed Anakin to attack the Jedi temple so that in case Padme lived, she would never forgive him.

5.He's power hungry, the more he gets the better. He wouldn't stop just because he is already powerful, he always wants more.

6. He doesn't need to do any work himself, thats what the Empire is for. His own personal galaxy!

7.Maybe he just decided to kill him and he happened to be sleeping at the time, we don't know.

I'm not here to debate with you, Traya, just shedding some light on a few things.

Even if he means psychically overpowered, then why didn't Palpatine obliterate Mace as soon as he came through the door? Or toss him into space via a wormhole?

I don't think Lucas would ever write something that cheesy..
Do the ones that are uber do that kind of exagurated stuff?

If Palpatine is as powerful as DE Sidious, then why didn't he just obliterate the three Jedi Masters when they came in? Or rip all the senate pods of the wall and chuck them at Yoda?

Because Sidious is NOT that powerful, Traya. He may be powerful, yes, but it takes effort to use the Force, and if you noticed when he was shocking Windu with lightning he was getting weaker. The only reason Windu would have killed Sidious was because Darth Sidious was physically weaker than Mace Windu. And why didn't he conjure a wormhole?! I don't know ANY Sith Lord who could do that. Marka Ragnos and the other three Sith Lords make Sidious look puny anyways. They had more skill, and much more power. They killed themselves in the end. Does that help, Traya? No matter how powerful a Sith is, there is always a limit. There were perhaps hundreds of thousands of pods, and it would take no less than at least FIVE of Sidious to hurl them all at one time. Oh, and one more thing: Plagueus was more powerful than Sidious was. He only taught Sidious what he knew. If he had tried to take Plagueus on while he was awake, given that Plagueus was as powerful as Sidious said, then Sidious would have lost indefinetly.

Originally posted by Malice Shan
Because Sidious is NOT that powerful, Traya. He may be powerful, yes, but it takes effort to use the Force, and if you noticed when he was shocking Windu with lightning he was getting weaker. The only reason Windu would have killed Sidious was because Darth Sidious was physically weaker than Mace Windu. And why didn't he conjure a wormhole?! I don't know ANY Sith Lord who could do that. Marka Ragnos and the other three Sith Lords make Sidious look puny anyways. They had more skill, and much more power. They killed themselves in the end. Does that help, Traya? No matter how powerful a Sith is, there is always a limit. There were perhaps hundreds of thousands of pods, and it would take no less than at least FIVE of Sidious to hurl them all at one time. Oh, and one more thing: Plagueus was more powerful than Sidious was. He only taught Sidious what he knew. If he had tried to take Plagueus on while he was awake, given that Plagueus was as powerful as Sidious said, then Sidious would have lost indefinetly.

Think Sidious was stronger than his master just not mentally. Physically he was younger and more powerful. Now I know no one knows who I am besides Ianus and he probaly doesnt remeber me. I dont have much knledge but to have some that can put LightSnakes Facts to truth. Lightsnake dont let them push you down its happned to me I just leave.

Even if the idea was that he were powerful like some insane Dragonball Z figure then Lucas still wouldn't have put insane planet throwing stuff in the movies because that would be dumb and exaggurated.

I don't how Sidious suddenly learned how to create worm holes and such at the time of DE but that he doesn't do anything comic book like is no argument to anything.
Not that I am insinuating that Sidious is anything.. (just contributing to the thread)

Any species can become a jedi but its not there connection to the force its their ability to reach those who can help them tune it to get to the point of being a Jedi.

Overlord you made a good point Lowbacca why cause he had connection to those who could help him tune his force sensitivity

Originally posted by Malice Shan
Because Sidious is NOT that powerful, Traya. He may be powerful, yes, but it takes effort to use the Force, and if you noticed when he was shocking Windu with lightning he was getting weaker. The only reason Windu would have killed Sidious was because Darth Sidious was physically weaker than Mace Windu. And why didn't he conjure a wormhole?! I don't know ANY Sith Lord who could do that. Marka Ragnos and the other three Sith Lords make Sidious look puny anyways. They had more skill, and much more power. They killed themselves in the end. Does that help, Traya? No matter how powerful a Sith is, there is always a limit. There were perhaps hundreds of thousands of pods, and it would take no less than at least FIVE of Sidious to hurl them all at one time. Oh, and one more thing: Plagueus was more powerful than Sidious was. He only taught Sidious what he knew. If he had tried to take Plagueus on while he was awake, given that Plagueus was as powerful as Sidious said, then Sidious would have lost indefinetly.

What I'm trying to say is, that if Sidious is the most powerful Sith of all time and outdoes beings like Nihilus, Ragnos, Nadd, Exar Kun et cetera, then logically he should be able to obliterate those four jedi masters with comical ease. And, he should be able to toss thousands of senate pods, if he can manipulate gravity and destroy fleets, then something like that should be relitively easy for him to do.

Sidious=the perfect evil incarnation-old&wise. I want one frame to display in my room and that is when he is about to kill the first jedi using an upper cut lightsaber technique.