Sidious - The Debate

Glentract:

1. Like I said, I can;t post them because they're mostly in books and comics and long dead threads/issues. The most I can do is list the stuff and quotes.

2. Naga never threw a star once...the Denarii Nova explosion was an ENTIRELY different matter. He never moved a star whatsoever. Kressh's entire flagship was vaporized instantly. And Naga's forces were being chased away by the Tetan forces when Ludo set upon him. the Tetans attacked shortly before Ludo and his men died. PRetty much: Ludo's entire chain of command died when a ship crashed into his flagship.

3. This new technology stuff was implied to be primitive. When Ulic's men arrive, the Onderonians have just discovered space travel. You also don't have to be powerful to fight a bunch of savage beasts long enough to build a city or wall...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Like I said, I can;t post them because they're mostly in books and comics and long dead threads/issues. The most I can do is list the stuff and quotes.

You could list which book or comic its from and a page number and if I have it, I will check it. There also is a search button. Although I don't think old threads are very useful as evidence, post a link to it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Naga never threw a star once...the Denarii Nova explosion was an ENTIRELY different matter. He never moved a star whatsoever. Kressh's entire flagship was vaporized instantly. And Naga's forces were being chased away by the Tetan forces when Ludo set upon him. the Tetans attacked shortly before Ludo and his men died. PRetty much: Ludo's entire chain of command died when a ship crashed into his flagship.

I was actually thinking about when in the beginning of the first comic with Exar Kun. Exar threw a star's core at the Republic forces that were after him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. This new technology stuff was implied to be primitive. When Ulic's men arrive, the Onderonians have just discovered space travel. You also don't have to be powerful to fight a bunch of savage beasts long enough to build a city or wall...

The Gungans lacked space travel too. I mean, we have nukes and could kill someone like Sidious with our military, but we barely have space travel.

Edit: I got to go for now, but I'll take a look at you previous post when I get back.

1. I have listed said what things they're from already....Character guide, chronology, DE sourcebook...And my point was I don't have said old threads, they're LONG dead and buried-the reason I bring them up is the authros and artists tend to hang out on TFN.net

2. Exar Did nothing of the sort....at the start of Kun's first comic, he's chatting with Vodo...he never touched a Star. Tricked Aleema into setting off a supernova, yes, but never did anything close to that himself.

3. Yeah, but considering Onderon was a backwards jungle civilization...with the issues they had from the beasts, they couldn't have had much

Y'know, Sorgo's attitude didn't change on damn bit. I'm surprised I was the only one to pick it up.

Message to Sorgo: No offense, but I'm pretty good at finding out whether or not I'm being lied to. For future reference, try to act differently and not have the same vicious attitude. Maybe then you could've fooled someone.

Yup. Janus and Sorgo are pissed at me. . .

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I have listed said what things they're from already....Character guide, chronology, DE sourcebook...And my point was I don't have said old threads, they're LONG dead and buried-the reason I bring them up is the authros and artists tend to hang out on TFN.net

You could still list the page number and book. I have a lot of the essential guides and would be happy to look once I get home(out of town right now). Isn't there some sort of search button on the site to find old threads fast?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Exar Did nothing of the sort....at the start of Kun's first comic, he's chatting with Vodo...he never touched a Star. Tricked Aleema into setting off a supernova, yes, but never did anything close to that himself.

Exar watched a holocron that showed Naga doing it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Yeah, but considering Onderon was a backwards jungle civilization...with the issues they had from the beasts, they couldn't have had much

The Mandalorians had trouble with the beast. One of the greatest Mandalorians was killed by one. They had to have been at least pretty good to have been able to fight them like that.

1. I can't even remember the name of the thread to search for it. Like I said, it's been years and I only recently found this forum.

2. Right, but like I said: Naga was shown to use the ship and gauntlets.

3. Mandalore died there because he was injured, alone and mobbed by them...the Mandalorians themselves are only shown on Dxun for two pages searching for Mandalore

This debate is a very sticky one.

On the one hand, Faunus presented a good point. If Sidious did have all of this power in the movies, why was he not shown using it? That is a good question, and one I don't think Lightsnake has an answer to. I only have a theory, so bear with me.

Palpatine spent many years of pure training in the Force and in saber skills, after his death at Endor. He could've learned these new abilities, having recovered various holocrons from Korriban (which he did). Also, even during the OT - Sidious drained the Force from the prisoners on Byss - using an ability similar to Nihilus's, except it isn't as strong. This could have also been a source of his newfound power - or a result of it.

Also, Palpatine was a gnarled feeble old man because the Dark Side was so strong in him. This should be another indication of how much raw power he possessed.

1. No worries.

2. Janus(I know you have a bad sampling of him) made a great argument on that it doesn't matter what Naga used to help him since he kept those with him. It's not like they are going to fight naked or anything. Remember that Sidious used one of the Ancient Sith Amulets too.

3. They still did some damage to him and occasionally got Mandalorians that weren't necessarily in large groups(that guy in KotOR).

Like I said, personally I blame Lucas's like for 'small scale' type things and a lack of necessity to use massive force powers. Lucas tends to leave a lot to the EU....but I am curious: Where is it shown Palpatine recovered holocrons from Korriban? If he had them, he'd have used them...and the Ancient Sith were a bit shocked to learn Vader was dead

That's so, in KOTOR...however, they main;y picked off isolated groups and the like of Mandalorians...however that IS Dxun and not Onderon itself.

When did Sidious ever use a Sith gauntlet/amulet?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like I said, personally I blame Lucas's like for 'small scale' type things and a lack of necessity to use massive force powers. Lucas tends to leave a lot to the EU....but I am curious: Where is it shown Palpatine recovered holocrons from Korriban? If he had them, he'd have used them...and the Ancient Sith were a bit shocked to learn Vader was dead

Perhaps it was a Jedi holocron he abducted. I recall him pilfering one, and then Leia stealing it when she was captured on Eclipse.

It was a JEdi one, Vodo Baas's to be exact....it was also pretty much useless to him.

Escape, Palpatine decaying from his own force essence can also be considered a sign of the weakness of his own body rather then strength.

Though how strong the dark side is within someone has a direct effect on their physical body....Maul's was already showing poor signs. Sidious gave up everything to the Dark Side at a very young age and let himself become practically an avatar to it...that'd have massive physical repercussions

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's so, in KOTOR...however, they main;y picked off isolated groups and the like of Mandalorians...however that IS Dxun and not Onderon itself.

When did Sidious ever use a Sith gauntlet/amulet?

Dxun and Onderon were so close the the animals on the two planets sometimes migrated between them. They had many of the same animals.

Sidious got his amulet when he went to get counsel from the Ancient Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Escape81
This debate is a very sticky one.

On the one hand, Faunus presented a good point. If Sidious did have all of this power in the movies, why was he not shown using it? That is a good question, and one I don't think Lightsnake has an answer to. I only have a theory, so bear with me.

Palpatine spent many years of pure training in the Force and in saber skills, after his death at Endor. He could've learned these new abilities, having recovered various holocrons from Korriban (which he did). Also, even during the OT - Sidious drained the Force from the prisoners on Byss - using an ability similar to Nihilus's, except it isn't as strong. This could have also been a source of his newfound power - or a result of it.

Also, Palpatine was a gnarled feeble old man because the Dark Side was so strong in him. This should be another indication of how much raw power he possessed.

Sidious doesnt show a ridiculous amount of power in the movies because George wouldnt have allowed it, He doesnt want his movies turning into superhero comics where people can throw planets etc..

That argument is moot though anyways, like Ushgarak said earlier if a position of authority states Sidious is the strongest than he is the strongest regardless of how we happen to interpret his force feats compared to other sith.

Dzun and Onderon have a lot of differences though...IE: Iziz being a biggie...

And Sidious is never given a Sith amulet...at any point...when he goes to Korriban for counsel all they give him is the knowledge of Anakin Solo.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Exar's death cheating was most certainly not by choice...he meant to become an all powerful spirit and the Jedi locked him in a temple...he went totally insane there. Korriban's spirits are another case: the Dark Side there keeps them. Sidious is the only spirit to actually return TO life and continuously take over bodies....and he was the one who did it to Bevel.

Bevel was just a joke. 😛

He locked himself in the temple to protect himself from the thousands of Jedi that were knocking at his door. Whether or not he went crazy he was still able to sustain himself after death and defeat Luke after Luke had defeated Sidious in a mortal form.

Nadd wasn't on Korriban, he was on Dxun. Where is the proof that it was the darkside that kept them there. There were plenty of other darkside places that could have kept others alive.

Ragnos could very well have come back if he his servents were as good as Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Nihilius devoured the force energies of a planet and this was inherent ONLY to Nihilius and not by his choice. We don't know near enough of Nihilius to use him in any argument, though I think he needs some kind of immobilization and concentration out of his victims...Visas hints as much in her Tales issue. And please, WHEN do any Sith EVER throw around a star? They don't, they never do...this is a myth. I have all the old comics at hand and the closest they ever get to that is Naga Sadow causing a nova thanks to his artifacts. What Luke does, he does WITHOUT enhancements. Naga uses a centuries prepared, beefed up super sith ship...IE: Not his own power

When did Luke ever move a star? Naga using amulets relates to the whole naked fighting argument I was telling you about? Also, the power for the ship has to come from somewhere. Naga had to have been able to generate that kind of power, the ship just helped him channel it.

BTW, Luke has a artifact too. Its the Kaiburr Crystal.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Dude....please stop saying Sidious had any Sith artifacts, he didn't. It's never shown, implied or mentioned. All he DOES have-when he shows Leia-is Vodo Baas's holocron which is useless to him. And Physical peak? He's in faulty clones and a body worse off than in ROTS. Ten years in the force to Sidious doesn't mean much. And Sidious was declared the mightiest in past tense, implying he'd already been the mightiest.

He got the artifacts from the Ancient Sith Lords. Also note that mightest may very well be referring to his position in the galaxy as Emperor, rather then his power in the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. I don't have KJA's stuff on me as the closest I can relate to it would be threads at SW.com or TFN that're....years and years old or very old issues of SW Insider.

If you could list, them that would be helpful, if not, owell.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Here's an argument for you: Why WOULD he show this stuff in ROTS? Lucas was aiming for small scale stuff. We know Yoda can hop around like a deranged money, why doesn't he do it in ESB? Why doesn't Sidious force push Mace when he has the chance? Why doesn't Yoda chuck a starship into Sidiou's office using the Force? There're a lot of whys....pass it off to Lucas's bad writing.

The movies are the highest level of canon. If they can't do it in the movies, then they can't do it in the books. That's just the way it is, no way around it. Also, how do you know what Lucas was aiming for?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. I was exaggerating, but if he and Yoda started using half the stuff at their disposal, they'd lay waste to a significant part of Korriban. Yoda's an incredibly powerful master, probably one of the top Jedi-if not THE top non Skywalker- around...he did what master Thon did and wiped out a gang of strong Bpfasshi-I do not care if I spelled that wrong, screw that species- Dark Jedi. He also did the job on a nice group of droids in the CLone Wars-not the TV show.

Any proof that Yoda is as powerful as you say he is? Yoda was a diplomat unlike the Jedi thousands of years before him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. When do the movies ever make Vader seem like crap? He wiped out Count dooku, cleared out the temple and killed some strong Jedi on his own...The clear thing here is Lucas favored the new movies more than the old-hence his changes- and since David Prowse and Sebastian Shaw are dead-I THINK David Prowse is dead- adding stuff is....rather impossible. When the OT was made Lucas didn't have CGI so he relied on realistic fighting-and in ANH, that was the first lightsaber fight ever so Lucas didn't have a clear concept. When Lucas DID have CGI, he pretty much tried to cover it all up and make it seem like he had a massive plan all along...

I thought you were referring to OT Vader.

Vader still wasn't very powerful in the grand scale of things. Remember that he lost to Obi-wan and that Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku. Hence Vader obviously isn't 80% as powerful as Sidious in the movies, which are a higher level of canon then GL himself, and isn't very powerful.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dzun and Onderon have a lot of differences though...IE: Iziz being a biggie...

And Sidious is never given a Sith amulet...at any point...when he goes to Korriban for counsel all they give him is the knowledge of Anakin Solo.

The beast on the two planets are very similar though.

I was told on several occasions that he recieved an Amulet. Sorry for the confusion.