Why do you ignore the fact that regardless of his involvement in making fighting scenes and stunts for the movies, Nick Gillard is no more a reliable source for Sidious' ability than the gaffer or the guy who peels oranges for GL.
George Lucas has the final say, and if it's not coming out of his mouth, or shown in his scripts or the movies, it's hogwash. NG does not make the final rules, period. He is a stunt coordinator.
anything contradicting him yet? No? Than he's the only source we have on this? Ok. Did he make Sidious's style? Yes? Does that give him authroity to talk about it as noone else has contradicted Gillard on it.
If the guy who peels Lucas's oranges says Lucas prefers clementines...I'd be inclined to believe him
anything contradicting him yet? No? Than he's the only source we have on this? Ok.
Yoda is a manifestation of the Force.
Anything contradicting me yet? No? Am I the only source you have on this claim? Ok.
Do you see the fault yet? Or do we go into extra innings?
Did he make Sidious's style? Yes? Does that give him authroity to talk about it as noone else has contradicted Gillard on it.
Wow.
Paul Weston is the stunt coordinator for The Count of Monte Cristo. He created ALL of the fight scenes in the entire production. If he makes the assertion that Edmon Dantes is ambidextrous, can use all styles and weapons, and can pwn anyone, and no one else has contradicted him yet, is he in a position to make this claim?
No!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda can't be because the Chosen One had to be born from the Force. See?Is Count of Monte Cristo an original movie or is it a heavily altered version where the original creator is dead and buried as opposed to SW where the creator is working right alongside Nick?
I never said I was talking about the Chosen One, but thanks for assuming. The point is, someone doesn't have to contradict a claim for it to be false or unreliable.
And the movie I'm refering to is the 2002 production, which stands in its own realm, so to speak, since it is not in a continuity with Dumas' original work. The point was that both movies have fighting scenes and styles totally dictated by one man. Difference is that NG has made claims that are unsubstantiated, while Weston has not. NG has no real authority, just imagined authority.
And for the last damn time, stop APPEALING TO AUTHORITY.
1. George Lucas hasn't said that Marka Ragnos is the strongest Sith Lord of all time, nor did he say that Kreia's quote is the honest-to-God truth. I guess that means the theory of "Ancient Sith pwn all PT Sith" bites the big one.
2. Nick Gillard invented lightsaber dueling. He invented the forms, styles, and all others, on Lucas's directive. Thus, he is a reliable source for information regarding who is skilled in what, in regards to weapons. Lucas has not contradicted this in any way. I suppose then that if Lucas doesn't say "okay" to every single word Gillard says, it must be false?
3. Now, I was skeptical when I looked at this. But Lightsnake is the only one here who's offered proof. The rest of you like to insult him. Doesn't matter, because until you all give your rebuttles and counter his information, he's right. So, get crackin'. It's your job to produce some information against his statements.
Good Lord, Blind Guardian, how can you be so damn obtuse? This kind of adolescent arguing might swing in the vs. area but I am damned if I am going to see it gain credibility in here.
All this talk you babble about 'appeals to authority' and so forth actually has a name itself- sophistry.
Despite your attempts to reduce him to a mere functionary, Nick Gillard had hige creative control over his fights, and I am afraid only an idiot would dismiss him as an authoritative source on the subject. Is he absolutely inapable of error? No- but he IS a good source, and furthermore he is the only decent source we have. Trying to compare yourself making a comment about Yoda is a total non sequitur- by any measure of common sense, Nick Gillard has far more right to make an official proncouncement on the area than you.
Let's get this down to cases. If the facta remain at this- that GL says that Sidious is the most powerful, coupled with the creator of all these EU characters saying that they are less powerful than Sidious...
... then the debate is over, regardless of any debating tactics being employed. If these specific areas are not properly addressed, then that's the end of the game, and I'll close if necessary.
Originally posted by Blind GuardianI am completely lost on your point in this fued..
And for the last damn time, stop APPEALING TO AUTHORITY.
Originally posted by Escape81
1. George Lucas hasn't said that Marka Ragnos is the strongest Sith Lord of all time, nor did he say that Kreia's quote is the honest-to-God truth. I guess that means the theory of "Ancient Sith pwn all PT Sith" bites the big one.2. Nick Gillard invented lightsaber dueling. He invented the forms, styles, and all others, on Lucas's directive. Thus, he is a reliable source for information regarding who is skilled in what, in regards to weapons. Lucas has not contradicted this in any way. I suppose then that if Lucas doesn't say "okay" to every single word Gillard says, it must be false?
3. Now, I was skeptical when I looked at this. But Lightsnake is the only one here who's offered proof. The rest of you like to insult him. Doesn't matter, because until you all give your rebuttles and counter his information, he's right. So, get crackin'. It's your job to produce some information against his statements.
1. And neither has he said Sidious is.
2. No, it's not false. He's a reliable source. Good job.
3. Marka Ragnos led the Sith Empire to its very peak. He was at the helm for 100 years, without a single challenge from ANYONE. Why is this? BECASUE THEY WERE SCARED OF HIM. And these are the Purebreed Sith, who have one of the best connections to the force since they are all descendants of Jedis.
Take Naga Sadow. He made war on the Republic at its height. He had about a third of the army the Republic had but pushed them back with his sheer ability using Battle Meditation. After that, with hardly a fleet, he fought off Ludo Kressh and the Republic Vanguard. He destroyed Ludo's fleet and escaped to Yavin 4, where, after 500 years, his spirit was still powerful enough to train Freedon Nadd.
Freedon Nadd was a badass. He took over a well developed planet, Onderon, BY HIMSELF with only a blaster and a short lightsaber. After that, he fought off the Republic counter attack for some time.
1. He hasn't. Other sources have.
2. Thank you.
3. This Ragnos bit is fine'n dandy, but the Ancient Sith have hardly done that much that was impressive. Ragnos was an incredible powerhouse, this is so but what else we were shown of the Sith were....less than impressive. Naga Sadow did not 'push the Republic back. The war lasted...two hours at the max. Every Sith Lord he sent at the forefront-his forces were mianly illusion, once this was realized, his forces were crushed within....an hour-died. With no known Jedi casualities except Master Ooroo who wiped out an entire Sith army when he gave his life up-not bad. He also didn't 'fight off' Ludo Kressh, the Republic fleet did that for him. And Ludo's forces were so inept because Kressh died in the opening minutes of the engagement-a dying ship crashed into his. And Sadow put himself into a cyogenic sleep until Nadd woke him up...
4. Onderon was NOT well developed when Nadd took over. It was a primitive, unknown world with a big city that Nadd established himself in and took over and exiled dissenters...the Republic never attacked him...hell, the Republic didn't know he EXISTED until centuries later when Qel-Droma's trio went to that planet
Originally posted by Escape81
EU Forums Debators.1. Faunus
2. Ianus
3. IKC
4. Illustrious
5. Nai FohlThese are the big five.
Escape, not even in the top five? That's a low blow. 😛 JK. I know I suck.
You know though that I have little, if any, bias against Sidious as I was right there beside you against most of the forum in proving that force-wise Sidious is more capable then Yoda even as of ROTS.
So, now that is out of the way, welcome to the forums Lightsnake(I know I'm a little late.).
Alrighty, lets take a look at what we got here(I'm very late into this, I know, bear with me until I get whats going on.).
Thank you, Escape. I promise to confine the arrogance and insults. I open by saying a bold statement and will offer more if asked: Sidious is indeed the strongest of all time, confirmed in several sources, first in the original piece of EU Dark Empire. In that comic, Sidious manages to cheat death several times, forcing his spirit into other bodies. He devours the life force of six billion inhabitants of the world Byss but doesn't kill them, showing control. In addition, at the end, he squares off with Luke in combat and by this point, Luke is referred to as very powerful. Palpatine focuses his rage and annihilates a fleet of ships with a force storm.
Exar cheated death for 4,000 years. Naga for 6 centuries. Ajunta wandered as a spirit for two thousand years. In no way does coming back from the dead a few times mean he is very powerful, hell Bevel did it.
Does control equal power? Nihilus ate an entire planet in less time which contained much of that times Jedi Order.
Annigilating a fleet of ships is all nice and such, but really, does it compare to throwing a star with much less effort? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll have to do some calculations on this to find which one is actually a greater feat. Before I can make my calculations, I am going to need to know ship counts and type. I can't get those myself as I don't have the comic, so I need someone to give the ship counts and type to me.
BTW, Luke is powerful at this point, but still around Yoda's level, who had more trouble lifting a X-wing from a swamp then Naga did ripping out the core of a star.
There is never anything to indicate this is different from the Sidious we see in the trilogies.
Let's see, shall we?
1. He is at his physical peak and his body has been decaying in his own force essence for the last 50+ years.
2. He has Ancient Sith Amulets, greatly increasing his power.
3. He has another 10 years with which to study the Force.
Number two greatly changes his power level from the movies, as it made the Sith immensly more powerful.
Moreover, when he visits Korriban, he is hailed at by the Sith, mocked by several but in the end they acquiesce to his wish when he demands it of them, saying he gave up everything to the Dark Side...in another source, Dark Lord, I believe, it is revealed Sidious was prophesized as the greatest by the Ancient Sith themselves. The creator of the ancient Sith, Kevin Anderson, vile Dune destroying heretic he is, said he never intended Sidious to be below his creations.
Do you have any actual proof of this?
Another argument is 'Why does he never show this in ROTS?"
Same reason why Yoda isn't leaping around Luke like a madman: Both technology constraints...and that he doesn't need to. We could have quiet control from sidious or he could milk a few giant cows, wave his arms and level some buildings...and with Yoda, vaporizing half of Coruscant would probably not be such a good idea.
How exactly would they vaporize half of Coruscant?
I'll most certainly say Vader was weaker as was as a lot of Ancient Sith, but probably greater than a lot of others. At the boards I frequent, it's been a huge debate against him and Revan.
The movies, which are the ultimate level of canon, show him as a piece of crap. GL has the money to remake the movies at any time if he so pleases. He hasn't, so it seems they are to his liking.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He hasn't. Other sources have.
Can you show these sources?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. This Ragnos bit is fine'n dandy, but the Ancient Sith have hardly done that much that was impressive. Ragnos was an incredible powerhouse, this is so but what else we were shown of the Sith were....less than impressive. Naga Sadow did not 'push the Republic back. The war lasted...two hours at the max. Every Sith Lord he sent at the forefront-his forces were mianly illusion, once this was realized, his forces were crushed within....an hour-died. With no known Jedi casualities except Master Ooroo who wiped out an entire Sith army when he gave his life up-not bad. He also didn't 'fight off' Ludo Kressh, the Republic fleet did that for him. And Ludo's forces were so inept because Kressh died in the opening minutes of the engagement-a dying ship crashed into his. And Sadow put himself into a cyogenic sleep until Nadd woke him up...
Naga threw a star and wasn't even tired after. Ragnos is an uknown, but we know it is a lot more then Naga as Naga was afraid to challenge him even on his death bed.
So Kressh had no second in command?
BTW, the travel time from Korriban to Coruscant is more then 2 hours. Obviously you are exagerrating.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Onderon was NOT well developed when Nadd took over. It was a primitive, unknown world with a big city that Nadd established himself in and took over and exiled dissenters...the Republic never attacked him...hell, the Republic didn't know he EXISTED until centuries later when Qel-Droma's trio went to that planet
"The native humans of Onderon struggled against the beasts, eventually gathering new technologies and building a huge walled city, Iziz, to protect themselves. Like the people of many other fringe worlds, the Onderonians had a distrust of non-humans."
They were obviously powerful.
Thank you for the civility, Glentract. I'd be glad to debate this reasonably.
1. Exar's death cheating was most certainly not by choice...he meant to become an all powerful spirit and the Jedi locked him in a temple...he went totally insane there. Korriban's spirits are another case: the Dark Side there keeps them. Sidious is the only spirit to actually return TO life and continuously take over bodies....and he was the one who did it to Bevel.
2. Nihilius devoured the force energies of a planet and this was inherent ONLY to Nihilius and not by his choice. We don't know near enough of Nihilius to use him in any argument, though I think he needs some kind of immobilization and concentration out of his victims...Visas hints as much in her Tales issue. And please, WHEN do any Sith EVER throw around a star? They don't, they never do...this is a myth. I have all the old comics at hand and the closest they ever get to that is Naga Sadow causing a nova thanks to his artifacts. What Luke does, he does WITHOUT enhancements. Naga uses a centuries prepared, beefed up super sith ship...IE: Not his own power
3. Dude....please stop saying Sidious had any Sith artifacts, he didn't. It's never shown, implied or mentioned. All he DOES have-when he shows Leia-is Vodo Baas's holocron which is useless to him. And Physical peak? He's in faulty clones and a body worse off than in ROTS. Ten years in the force to Sidious doesn't mean much. And Sidious was declared the mightiest in past tense, implying he'd already been the mightiest.
4. I don't have KJA's stuff on me as the closest I can relate to it would be threads at SW.com or TFN that're....years and years old or very old issues of SW Insider.
5. Here's an argument for you: Why WOULD he show this stuff in ROTS? Lucas was aiming for small scale stuff. We know Yoda can hop around like a deranged money, why doesn't he do it in ESB? Why doesn't Sidious force push Mace when he has the chance? Why doesn't Yoda chuck a starship into Sidiou's office using the Force? There're a lot of whys....pass it off to Lucas's bad writing.
6. I was exaggerating, but if he and Yoda started using half the stuff at their disposal, they'd lay waste to a significant part of Korriban. Yoda's an incredibly powerful master, probably one of the top Jedi-if not THE top non Skywalker- around...he did what master Thon did and wiped out a gang of strong Bpfasshi-I do not care if I spelled that wrong, screw that species- Dark Jedi. He also did the job on a nice group of droids in the CLone Wars-not the TV show.
7. When do the movies ever make Vader seem like crap? He wiped out Count dooku, cleared out the temple and killed some strong Jedi on his own...The clear thing here is Lucas favored the new movies more than the old-hence his changes- and since David Prowse and Sebastian Shaw are dead-I THINK David Prowse is dead- adding stuff is....rather impossible. When the OT was made Lucas didn't have CGI so he relied on realistic fighting-and in ANH, that was the first lightsaber fight ever so Lucas didn't have a clear concept. When Lucas DID have CGI, he pretty much tried to cover it all up and make it seem like he had a massive plan all along...