A third of all "Rape" victims had been drinking

C'mon.. You are all empathising way too much on that responsible thing, they get abused and busted up from the inside just for some horny ass-hole to spill his seed.
Just because they get too cut up in the herd behavior of humans, doesn't mean that we should act like they should've known something like that could have happened! Most teenage girls wich this happens to are still way below the age of responsibility and we should releave their fears of reporting such abuse instead of being so harsh about this difficult issue.

Originally posted by PVS
i understand that.

but i fail to see how once victimised, a woman is automatically partially blamable. it can be acknowledged that she took a risk by simply having a drink outside her home, just as i take a risk of dying every time i get behind the wheel. in other words: shit happens. but how is it that the worst possible outcome should be viewed as the fault of the victim, even partially. that would be like passing a car wreck, seeing a dead body, and saying "oh well, he shouldn't have driven his car. he knew the risk after all"

i understand the objective point on how the courts view such a situation of rape, especially with the unfortunate lack of evidence in most cases. but i'm catching the whiff of an opinion that a woman 'has it coming' just for getting drunk.

I don't think she should be blamed, merely that if she consumes too much alcohal to make good decisions then she should assume SOME responsability. The guy is still to blame, it's still his fault and he should be penalized completely. But she does share some responability for making things easier for him.

Originally posted by PVS
i understand that.

but i fail to see how once victimised, a woman is automatically partially blamable. it can be acknowledged that she took a risk by simply having a drink outside her home, just as i take a risk of dying every time i get behind the wheel. in other words: shit happens. but how is it that the worst possible outcome should be viewed as the fault of the victim, even partially. that would be like passing a car wreck, seeing a dead body, and saying "oh well, he shouldn't have driven his car. he knew the risk after all"

I don't know if this is in response to me, but just to clarify, I personally am not arguing to apportion 'blame'; more to suggest that in risky situations, logically, there is risk. No more, no less. Not to say drinking near a man is risky, or wearing a skirt is risky.

For example, there are a lot of rapes over here as a result of women getting unlicensed cabs home alone.

Obviously the correct response is 'avoid unlicensed cabs- entirely if possible- and certainly while alone.'

To me, it doesn't come down to blame, it comes down to avoidance strategies. If these are ignored, then in my eyes, that's a stupid thing. If a woman does get raped taking an unlicensed cab home, you wouldn't feel the desire to say 'you're partially to blame', but I think only the most disingenuous person could avoid the thought, 'what the Hell where you thinking?'

Originally posted by overlord
C'mon.. You are all empathising way too much on that responsible thing, they get abused and busted up from the inside just for some horny ass-hole to spill his seed.
Just because they get too cut up in the herd behavior of humans, doesn't mean that we should act like they should've known something like that could have happened! Most teenage girls wich this happens to are still way below the age of responsibility and we should releave their fears of reporting such abuse instead of being so harsh about this difficult issue.

In this day and age, ALL women should realize the dangers of the world, and the risks they may be taking by dressing, as AC put it earlier, as gutter dwellers. Some men take it as an invitation, the men shouldn't and they're completely to blame for that, but a woman should at least understand the dangers and risks of dressing in an overly sexual manner.

Maybe responsible adults should be responsible but it's still the kids that are naive enough to do exactly what the perfect media picture is and follow the crowd.
Fact is that even young guys they might have had an interest in abuse them when they get them drunk. You can't expect too much of the victims.

The men know fully well that she doesn't put out signals to **** her.
I know there are always two sides to a story but rape happens more often than the media tells us because it doesn't always get reported out of fear what people might say and women who actually put the blame by themselves.
I therefor believe that defending the offender should be discouraged.

But no one is defending the offender. Merely pointing out that a woman often times has some responability in the matter, and that she should know the risks of the world she lives in.

Overlord, you have about 5 people continually pointing the obvious out to you and each time you storm into the thread like Haku and start headbutting the wall.

As Backfire said, NOBODY is defending the offender and as VVD said, he isn't trying to hand out blame. I'm not saying it's her fault that some scum decided to rape her, no woman DESERVES rape, but as VVD also said...it's about avoidance and responsibility.

This just doesn't seem to be registering with you. You have actually suggested that girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility. Now, to quote Stan Marsh from South Park:

"I know about freedom of speech, equality and all that other stuff, but seriously dude, f*ck you."

(That last part was just part of the quote, I don't actually intend to use profanity against you, before you whine).

Moreover, you continually cite the "kids" naive perception as reason for unfortunate circumstance, while STILL refusing to acknowledge that being naive what most of us are also getting at. You making things up to argue against them.

How can you logically say that going out and basically dressing/acting however you want means that whatever happens as a result (a result of HER actions) is not her fault?

Go on.

-AC

Originally posted by BackFire
But no one is defending the offender. Merely pointing out that a woman often times has some responability in the matter, and that she should know the risks of the world she lives in.

So wait, this keeps getting better...or worse.

You don't believe that a woman dressing inappropriately and getting intoxicated around men should expect the worst?

If you actually know that it's going to get response that is likely of a sexual interest and nature, yet still put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of, you still say this person is nowhere at fault if something goes wrong?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Overlord, you have about 5 people continually pointing the obvious out to you and each time you storm into the thread like Haku and start headbutting the wall.

As Backfire said, NOBODY is defending the offender and as VVD said, he isn't trying to hand out blame. I'm not saying it's her fault that some scum decided to rape her, no woman DESERVES rape, but as VVD also said...it's about avoidance and responsibility.

This just doesn't seem to be registering with you. You have actually suggested that girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility. Now, to quote Stan Marsh from South Park:

"I know about freedom of speech, equality and all that other stuff, but seriously dude, f*ck you."

(That last part was just part of the quote, I don't actually intend to use profanity against you, before you whine).

How can you logically say that going out and basically dressing/acting however you want means that whatever happens as a result (a result of HER actions) is not her fault?

Go on.

-AC

And no, I don't whine, I respond calmly and appropriately and I basically just contributed to the thread before you tried to make a discussion out of everything.

This just doesn't seem to be registering with you. You have actually suggested that girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility. Now, to quote Stan Marsh from South Park:

I keep stating my point but you conveniantly skip it. Should I really type the same text all night because of you being frustrated?

But don't go putting words in my mouth with your "girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility" when I say that we shouldn't count teens as responsible adults or that we the other argument wich you keep ignoring. Fact is that you just can't expect every one to be fully knowledgeable, responsible and cautious while they go do what everybody does.

How can you logically say that going out and basically dressing/acting however you want means that whatever happens as a result (a result of HER actions) is not her fault

As for the result of her action is here fault.. Those extreme comparisons like leaving your car open don't apply in this case. How is a girl who gets caught up in the whole dumb rave and party scene to hold responsible for someone who decides to rape her? Guys don't have the trouble that that kind stuff can happen when they drink too much and it's already a taboo.
Teens just don't know everything and don't always realise all dangers in the world. You can't even hold teens responsible anyway since they aren't grown up yet anyway. If even their parents don't fully realise what kids do and even school doesn't inform enough, how can we just point the finger like that and give them a degree of blame too?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So wait, this keeps getting better...or worse.

You don't believe that a woman dressing inappropriately and getting intoxicated around men should expect the worst?

If you actually know that it's going to get response that is likely of a sexual interest and nature, yet still put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of, you still say this person is nowhere at fault if something goes wrong?

-AC

And yes, of course they can get intoxicated around men. Why not?
It's not like there is a big percentage of guys who will take advantage of them when they go too far in going along with the crowd. Should I fear for women when I get too drunk?

If you actually know that it's going to get response that is likely of a sexual interest and nature, yet still put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of, you still say this person is nowhere at fault if something goes wrong?

The thing is that girls are just forced by the generalissimo to dress oh so provocatively and get involved in oh so dangerous positions.
Consuming alcohol and dressing like everyone else is just still considered harmless and normal and if they don't join in, then you know what usually happens..

I don't get why you take it to an extreme in this conversation.
I actually don't get why I draw out such an extreme reaction from you.

Originally posted by overlord
And no, I don't whine, I respond calmly and appropriately and I basically just contributed to the thread before you tried to make a discussion out of everything.Calm down, just because I don't agree with just pointing the responsibility card at every victim doesn't mean I don't get where you're coming from.

I'm perfectly calm, that old trick is well...old. Secondly, I'm not saying you don't get it because you disagree, just that you don't get it. Why? Because after multiple pages and multiple detailed posts you continually produce overwhelming evidence that suggests you don't get what we are proposing. It has nothing to do with agreeing or not.

Originally posted by overlord
I keep stating my point but you conveniantly skip it. Should I really type the same text all night because of you being frustrated?

I know what your point is. Reversing my words against me doesn't work unless you're actually countering.

Originally posted by overlord
But don't go putting words in my mouth with your "girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility" when I say that we shouldn't count teens as responsible adults or that we the other argument wich you keep ignoring.

Well anyone under 18 isn't an adult, but the legal age of consent here in England is 16. It's under 18 in a lot of countries. So why shouldn't we give responsibility to those who the government clearly deem responsible? Especially to the degree of setting a legal age of consent that is considerably below the age of legality.

Originally posted by overlord
Fact is that you just can't expect every one to be fully knowledgeable, responsible and cautious while they go do what everybody does. Don't take every little comment in this thread so incredibly serious. Do I really need to go watch every little thing I say because the hot breath of the legendary AC is in my neck with my every move.
Just let me use a forum, for crying out loud..

Nobody is saying be aware of what everybody does. We're saying that you should be responsible.

You can't say that these people are allowed to go out and ACT like adults without also pairing it with the responsibility and consequence of an adult.

Originally posted by overlord
As for the result of her action is here fault.. Those extreme comparisons like leaving your car open don't apply in this case.

I agree, but who is mentioning cars?

Originally posted by overlord
How is a girl who gets caught up in the whole dumb rave and party scene to hold responsible for someone who decides to rape her? Guys don't have the trouble that that kind stuff can happen when they drink too much and it's already a taboo.

You just answered your own question. If she's dumb enough and naive enough to go out and act/dress inappropriately in that situation, she's not ensuring her safety. YOU are trying to pin the old "They're young, they don't know" argument down. Which is a lame argument any time it's used. Of course they know.

Originally posted by overlord
Teens just don't know everything and don't always realise all dangers in the world. You can't even hold teens responsible anyway since they aren't grown up yet anyway. If even their parents don't fully realise what kids do and even school doesn't inform enough, how can we just point the finger like that and give them a degree of blame too?

Actually feel like I'm conversating with a brick wall.

This is my point: If you act irresponsible and do something in the knowledge that it might have negative response, you are responsible in some way for inviting said response.

Please read that before you reply.

Originally posted by overlord
What is inappropriately anyway? And who am I talking to anyway? Are you an extreme christian that you dissaprove girls dressing like the stereotype?

And yes, of course they can get intoxicated around men. Why not?
It's not like there is a big percentage of guys who will take advantage of them when they go too far in going along with the crowd. Should I fear for women when I get too drunk?

No, I don't disapprove of that. You know what I DON'T want? Me or anyone else going out innocently, sleeping with a girl while we're both intoxicated and her then claiming rape when nothing of the sort happened. That's what I don't want to happen. Do you see where I'm going? No, I suspect not.

That last part is so extremely illogical it's frightening. You are now making the assumption that it's ok for women to dress provocatively and get intoxicated around men because you don't believe many men want to rape? I fear for whoever is your responsibility. Seriously.

Originally posted by overlord
The thing is that girls are just forced by the generalissimo to dress oh so provocatively and get involved in oh so dangerous positions.
Consuming alcohol and dressing like everyone else is just still considered harmless and normal and if they don't join in, then you know what usually happens..

I don't get why you take it to an extreme in this conversation.
I actually don't get why I draw out such an extreme reaction from you

You're getting no extreme reaction, you're just getting called out and you don't like it. Well that's tough.

So you're saying that it's NOW ok for a girl to dress that way and put herself in danger and STILL be free of blame, just because the alternative is looking bad for her friends?

Do you actually partake in society?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm perfectly calm, that old trick is well...old.

good, i hope you have thus parted ways with that "take a chill pill" strategy 😛

anyway, as i said, i agree that womwn should practice a strategy of avoidance, as is the case with any situation where there is a chance of being victimised. however, we must not adopt an attitude of "she wasnt responsible, so the hell with her". not that anyone uttered those words, but thats the vibe i get. everyone here has at one point inadvertantly put themselves in danger. please dont bullshit and say "not me". its simple human nature to deny danger given the right/wrong circumstance. easiest in one's youth.

Originally posted by PVS
good, i hope you have thus parted ways with that "take a chill pill" strategy 😛

never!!

Originally posted by PVS
anyway, as i said, i agree that womwn should practice a strategy of avoidance, as is the case with any situation where there is a chance of being victimised. however, we must not adopt an attitude of "she wasnt responsible, so the hell with her". not that anyone uttered those words, but thats the vibe i get. everyone here has at one point inadvertantly put themselves in danger. please dont bullshit and say "not me". its simple human nature to deny danger given the right/wrong circumstance. easiest in one's youth.

Agreed

Originally posted by PVS
good, i hope you have thus parted ways with that "take a chill pill" strategy 😛

anyway, as i said, i agree that womwn should practice a strategy of avoidance, as is the case with any situation where there is a chance of being victimised. however, we must not adopt an attitude of "she wasnt responsible, so the hell with her". not that anyone uttered those words, but thats the vibe i get. everyone here has at one point inadvertantly put themselves in danger. please dont bullshit and say "not me". its simple human nature to deny danger given the right/wrong circumstance. easiest in one's youth.

Yeah, it got old after I did it. That's the trick you see 🙂.

As you said, nobody is saying "the hell with her". Just that she didn't necessarily take steps to prevent it and therefore carries some of the blame.

-AC

I'm perfectly calm, that old trick is well...old. Secondly, I'm not saying you don't get it because you disagree, just that you don't get it. Why? Because after multiple pages and multiple detailed posts you continually produce overwhelming evidence that suggests you don't get what we are proposing. It has nothing to do with agreeing or not.

I know what your point is. Reversing my words against me doesn't work unless you're actually countering.

Well anyone under 18 isn't an adult, but the legal age of consent here in England is 16. It's under 18 in a lot of countries. So why shouldn't we give responsibility to those who the government clearly deem responsible? Especially to the degree of setting a legal age of consent that is considerably below the age of legality.

Nobody is saying be aware of what everybody does. We're saying that you should be responsible.

You can't say that these people are allowed to go out and ACT like adults without also pairing it with the responsibility and consequence of an adult.

I agree, but who is mentioning cars?

You just answered your own question. If she's dumb enough and naive enough to go out and act/dress inappropriately in that situation, she's not ensuring her safety. YOU are trying to pin the old "They're young, they don't know" argument down. Which is a lame argument any time it's used. Of course they know.

Actually feel like I'm conversating with a brick wall.

This is my point: If you act irresponsible and do something in the knowledge that it might have negative response, you are responsible in some way for inviting said response.

Please read that before you reply.

No, I don't disapprove of that. You know what I DON'T want? Me or anyone else going out innocently, sleeping with a girl while we're both intoxicated and her then claiming rape when nothing of the sort happened. That's what I don't want to happen. Do you see where I'm going? No, I suspect not.

That last part is so extremely illogical it's frightening. You are now making the assumption that it's ok for women to dress provocatively and get intoxicated around men because you don't believe many men want to rape? I fear for whoever is your responsibility. Seriously.

You're getting no extreme reaction, you're just getting called out and you don't like it. Well that's tough.

So you're saying that it's NOW ok for a girl to dress that way and put herself in danger and STILL be free of blame, just because the alternative is looking bad for her friends?

Do you actually partake in society?

-AC

But anyway.. This kind of retarded way of discussing makes us forget about what we were essentially discussing. I guess there is no way of going back now, is there?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, it got old after I did it. That's the trick you see 🙂.

As you said, nobody is saying "the hell with her". Just that she didn't necessarily take steps to prevent it and therefore carries some of the blame.

-AC

But if battling my opinion is so important to you, then I'll play along for you.

Originally posted by overlord
Trick? Are you sure you're not paranoid? Why do get so upset by my opinion anyway and try to start a discussion regarding it? What the hell are you talking about? Do you insist in this childish bickering?Well, in case you didn't know it.. Teens don't have a fully developt brain yet. They basically can't reason responsibly yet.

If continually telling yourself that I am upset, helps you make amends with yourself over having the complete wrong view on this, then by all means.

"Teens don't have a fully developed brain yet".

Hahaha, funniest comment of all time. It's developed ENOUGH to know what you do and what you just don't do. Especially at 16 and over.

Originally posted by overlord
And you putting all trust in the government instead of basic logic is something that you should not do.It's not suddenly my fault that they are allowed to, cut me some slack, psychopath.It's the basic idea that counts, not my example.They don't realise the full danger but what are you talking about with "the old this and that argument"? I can't even explain my points without getting extreme reactions like that.
And btw: You are putting too much stress on this 'provocatively dressing' and going out drinking. It's not like it's playing with electricity, it's normal and accepted.

Whoa slow down there, blank round. Where did you get "all trust" from? I'm questioning YOUR logic. If the legal age of consent is 16 in many countries (an age generally and legally considered to be an age of independent responsibility unless you live in the 50's or unless you're you) then why on Earth do you adopt the blinkered idea that teens brains are not yet developed enough to realise what IS and what ISN'T tempting fate?

You are making the old excuse that young people aren't aware of their actions, which is BS.

YES, it is normal and accepted. Which MIGHT be why rape occurs as often as it does. Ever think of this? Ever think, at all?

Originally posted by overlord
You can't expect everybody to think like you.Try grasping how I feel. You are forcing your opinion on me from the day I came here. Do you treat every new guy like that or do you feel threatened by me or something?

A) I don't, why is this relevant?

B) I'm not. I'm just telling you why yours is illogical, dangerous and non-sensical. If you want to continue holding that opinion, go for it.

C) Threatened? That's the third...maybe fourth funniest thing you've said.

Originally posted by overlord
I should count how many times you stress on response and responsible. You compare this to playing with fire with carrying it to such an extreme.

Rape isn't extreme? Maybe this is why your attitude to it is so frighteningly lenient.

Originally posted by overlord
Instead of making a whole page full of garbage like you are now doing, let's adress subjects in this case in a normal fashion.I know some of you fear stuff like that but that is no reason to stress on teen girls' responsibilities like that. You are honestly expecting them all to have your own intelligence.You apperantly can't judge logic anymore with the importance of debating for you.

No, I'm expecting them to know that going out dressed provocatively and getting drunk makes them easy prey for rapists. If they don't know that, it's dangerous. If they do and still do it, then they are partially to blame for any negative consequence. Most of them do know, because 16 years olds and up, contrary to your belief, do have brains that are capable of rational thought.

Originally posted by overlord
It's not an assumption that it's ok for women to go out and party like men, it's an opinion. Is that so hard to grasp or is this pointless bickering fullfilling?You actually come across as obsessed by me.. But don't make assumptions on me because I am actually quite emotionless, I merely reply to your anger.Dress like what? It's the freaking norm. Why do you expect everybody to have an incredible IQ?

Why are you making stuff up? Who is mentioning whether it's ok or not? I'm not against how a girl wants to dress, it's her choice. However, if a 16 year old girl dresses up with the purpose of looking attractive or in a manner that shows a lot of skin, then she is going to attract male attention. Whether she wants to or not. If she doesn't want this, she need only dress appropriately. If she chooses not to, she has no right to complain.

A girl cannot walk out of her house with a mega short skirt and a shirt that shows a lot, then say "I don't like these men staring at me." It's stupid.

Originally posted by overlord
Yes, I can judge neutrally and keep my calm unlike others. You on the otherhand have elevated my prime message to such a level that I suspect some kind of psychosis on your part. Thanks for including that.. I could have never known it was you..

Welcome to the news, up next: Can Overlord stay on topic? A recent study proves that no, he cannot.

Originally posted by overlord
But anyway.. This kind of retarded way of discussing makes us forget about what we were essentially discussing. I guess there is no way of going back now, is there?

Well yes there is, why are you being stupid?

Here is a single point, reply to it:

If a woman dresses provocatively, gets drunk around men and consequently raped during intoxication, do you NOT agree that it retracts credibility from her claim? That she is partly responsible?

Oh, of course not. Because you believe teens brains aren't developed.

Bs.

-AC

On the issue of provocation, I agree that common sense is important, though I don't think the victim has any inherent to blame for the actions of criminals who think a short skirt is an invitation and justification.

Much like a person who leaves their window open to let air in, only to have a criminal come through and rob them - they aren't responsible for the actions of the criminal, but sadly we live in a world were people take advantage of any opening, real or imagined. We have to accept it, and act accordingly. It would be nice to think we are free to do whatever and be safe and have our rights and privileges protected, but sadly there are those out there that will always be flies in the ointment.

As a result sometimes people should just ere on the side of caution, whether it be going to a club, flashing cash in a bad part of town, leaving a window open, whatever. It's not the victims fault, they didn't ask for it, didn't want it, but the important thing is to learn from such things. If there are ways to minimise risk, then that should be done, even if it means dressing down a bit. I mean, I remember the children's safety officer giving talks to us in High School about the dangers that we could be facing now that we are "becoming adults with interests and desires and new freedoms." And they said things, for both girls and guys, that were basically common sense - don't travel alone, don't get to the stage were you can't defend or decide for yourself, don't trust strangers, no matter how nice, don't except pills or drinks that come from unknown sources, that kind of thing. Of course they also said about rape, and how it's not the victims fault, but the important thing is to just avoid such situations, and that while everybody believes it will never happen to them, it could.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
On the issue of provocation, I agree that common sense is important, though I don't think the victim has any inherent to blame for the actions of criminals who think a short skirt is an invitation and justification.

Much like a person who leaves their window open to let air in, only to have a criminal come through and rob them - they aren't responsible for the actions of the criminal, but sadly we live in a world were people take advantage of any opening, real or imagined. We have to accept it, and act accordingly. It would be nice to think we are free to do whatever and be safe and have our rights and privileges protected, but sadly there are those out there that will always be flies in the ointment.

As a result sometimes people should just ere on the side of caution, whether it be going to a club, flashing cash in a bad part of town, leaving a window open, whatever. It's not the victims fault, they didn't ask for it, didn't want it, but the important thing is to learn from such things. If there are ways to minimise risk, then that should be done, even if it means dressing down a bit. I mean, I remember the children's safety officer giving talks to us in High School about the dangers that we could be facing now that we are "becoming adults with interests and desires and new freedoms." And they said things, for both girls and guys that was basically common sense - don't travel alone, don't get to the stage were you can't defend of decide for yourself, don't trust strangers, no matter how nice, don't except pills or drinks that come from unknown sources, that kind of thing. Of course they also said about rape, and how it's not the victims fault, but the important thing is to just avoid such situations, and that while everybody believes it will never happen to them, it could.

Nobody is saying the woman would be responsible for his actions. Just not doing anything to prevent them, which means she's somewhat to blame. Not for the act, but for not doing anything to prevent it.

I genuinely do not know how many of the people here have to continue saying this before it actually sinks through.

-AC