Nom Anor VS Kir Kanos

1. FRAGMENTED Empire....IE: remnants after Dark Empire

2. Except he didn't lose and he was hardly scared when he was facing Yoda.

3. Why don't you try some proof? Noone in their right mind would run indefinitely from Yoda. How do you know he wasn't heading to a place where he'd have the advantage?

4. Gee, let's see you even try to react when that happens. According to Lucas, and I paraphrase: "We always had the idea that Mace overpowered Palpatine and then Anakin comes in and Sidious fakes his weakness." Yeah, that lightning thing was lying through his teeth.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. FRAGMENTED Empire....IE: remnants after Dark Empire

2. Except he didn't lose and he was hardly scared when he was facing Yoda.

3. Why don't you try some proof? Noone in their right mind would run indefinitely from Yoda. How do you know he wasn't heading to a place where he'd have the advantage?

4. Gee, let's see you even try to react when that happens. According to Lucas, and I paraphrase: "We always had the idea that Mace overpowered Palpatine and then Anakin comes in and Sidious fakes his weakness." Yeah, that lightning thing was lying through his teeth.

Hardly scared? Did you see his face when his Lightning was bursted back in his face? Pure fear, Lightsnake. Except Yoda had alot more winning points in the fight.

Oh my GOD! Sidious was running. When Yoda said "If so powerful are you, why run?" Sidious didn't just say "I am not running!"

Sidious WAS running away from Yoda because he knew his possibilities of loss were high. He would have fought with Yoda to find another place. No one is gonna sit there, turn their back away from their opponent and leap across the room trying to leave the door to find a better place to duel.

I have heard enough of this bullshit.

Who was talking about Lightning? Could you attempt to place Sidious on a pedestal even more than you already are? We were talking about him scrambling away from Mace like a little girl BEFORE Anakin came into the office.

1. WHAT winning points now? And considering Yoda completely screwed up at the end and sent himself hurtling over the edge while Sidious didn't....edge to Sidious. Not once in the fight did either have any advantage over the other and Yoda's last gambit failed. How do you know Yoda didn't plan to send them both off and Sidious knew it? Or that Yoda was ignorant of the conseuqences to what he was doing and Sidious wasn't?

2. Actually, it was "Why leave?" Sidious's response was to sneer and ignite his saber when he had to fight. And y'know what else? Considering he matched Yoda in the saber fight, it doesn't have any bearing.

3. Of all those 'high possibilities' of losing didn't carry through. Yoda and Sidious were equals and Sidious was facing an enemy where he didn't hold the cards. He blasted Yoda, Yoda blasted him back. He tried to run at the start, Yoda fled at the end. Evens out. And he hardly 'turned his back and walked towards the door, he jumped towards it and Yoda forced his hand there. Come on, what else would he have accomplished? HOW DARE SIDIOUS TRY TO GAIN AN UPEER HANd, DAMN HIM TO HELL!

4. Scrambling away from Mace like a little girl? Yeah, so he should fling himself at Mace screaming in inhuman rage instead of moving back to regain his bearings? And where Mace was, a sweep of the hand would send Mace out of the window. How DARE Sidious attempt to recover after being knocked down, how DARE he act like a smart fighter! And dominating the whole fight? Mace was doing no such thing. he was pushed back at the start and Kit died right under his nose, he missed a move that should have meant instant death for him and failed to break Palpatine until the end with the kick.

Why are we arguing about Sidious now?

I don't know how anyone could think he didn't fake that entire lightning thing....Lucas only said he was exagerrating weakness there, he displays no signs of any injury afterwards, unleashes a lot more power on Mace than he was originally...looks at Anakin with a smirk on his face...maybe it's just me

I do find it odd that his master plan involves getting his ass beat and his face melted.

His other master plan involved manhandled by a loose cannon like Grievous, shackled down roughly during a space battle...and considering his 'melted' face and injuries'd give him more credibility with the senate, coupled with the idea that the lightning didn't do ANYTHING to his face and he just removed his mask...
Lightning hasn't effected anyone else that way and Luke was getting it worse than Palp....so was Mace as the end and he was cosmetically fine. Even men tortured viciously with lightning in the EU have come out looking fine and feeling...cooked

Plus, lightning wouldn't melt your face like that, raise your eyebrows or turn your eyes Sith yellow.

1. WHAT winning points now? And considering Yoda completely screwed up at the end and sent himself hurtling over the edge while Sidious didn't....edge to Sidious. Not once in the fight did either have any advantage over the other and Yoda's last gambit failed. How do you know Yoda didn't plan to send them both off and Sidious knew it? Or that Yoda was ignorant of the conseuqences to what he was doing and Sidious wasn't?

Do NOT force me to whip out the ROTS Script, which shows Yoda having the upper hand more times than Sidious.

Yoda's own power sent his meager frame tumbling to the office floor. Sidious was a grown man.

2. Actually, it was "Why leave?" Sidious's response was to sneer and ignite his saber when he had to fight. And y'know what else? Considering he matched Yoda in the saber fight, it doesn't have any bearing.

Oh... Now it doesn't have any bearing. I see.

Oh yeah. Thanks for the correction. You can't consider it running when you frantically leap across the room to try to exit the building.

3. Of all those 'high possibilities' of losing didn't carry through. Yoda and Sidious were equals and Sidious was facing an enemy where he didn't hold the cards. He blasted Yoda, Yoda blasted him back. He tried to run at the start, Yoda fled at the end. Evens out. And he hardly 'turned his back and walked towards the door, he jumped towards it and Yoda forced his hand there. Come on, what else would he have accomplished? HOW DARE SIDIOUS TRY TO GAIN AN UPEER HANd, DAMN HIM TO HELL!

According to you, Sidious running has no bearing so it shall work the same for Yoda. Sidious trying to gain an upper hand? He feared the factor of defeat from Yoda, so he tried to leave. Yoda fled due to the fact he fell a hundred feet due to his OWN POWER!

4. Scrambling away from Mace like a little girl? Yeah, so he should fling himself at Mace screaming in inhuman rage instead of moving back to regain his bearings? And where Mace was, a sweep of the hand would send Mace out of the window. How DARE Sidious attempt to recover after being knocked down, how DARE he act like a smart fighter! And dominating the whole fight? Mace was doing no such thing. he was pushed back at the start and Kit died right under his nose, he missed a move that should have meant instant death for him and failed to break Palpatine until the end with the kick.

We didn't see Palpatine overpowering Mace when it came to the end, now did he?

LOL! You don't have to fling yourself, but he knew the ways of the Jedi and i'm sure he knew Mace wouldn't slay him. Instead, he started scrambling away like... a ....little....Girl! Yeah. He did need to regain his bearings after losing the duel.

A smart fighter flees to a corner like a rat?

I can see that... Attempt to recover after being knocked down? The man practically slipped. He wasn't directly kicked on his ass. His lightsaber was kicked to the side. There was NOTHING to recover from.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't know how anyone could think he didn't fake that entire lightning thing....Lucas only said he was exagerrating weakness there, he displays no signs of any injury afterwards, unleashes a lot more power on Mace than he was originally...looks at Anakin with a smirk on his face...maybe it's just me

His face WAS melted. Whether it was faked or not, his face was melted.

Uh, I'm pretty sure it was because of the lightning that his face got all goofy. Personally, I thought it was pretty weak. I liked the KOTOR explanation of the body becoming twisted over time with evil. I would have prefered an explanation along the lines of him hiding his true face with a force mask or something.

1. Don't make me pull out the novelization. The movie shows neither of the occurances.

2. Especially considering you do more than hold your own, you sorta win the fight...yeah, I'd say it has no bearing.

3. His own power? Who was using the lightning now? And who tried something and failed miserably, sending himself plummeting a hundred feet?

4. We didn't see Obi-wan overpowering Maul, either, but at the end of the day who was lying in two pieces? And he tried to scramble away...what else were you expecting to do? Anyone with a tiny amount of brains would put distance between himself and his enemy to recover. Seriously, what the hell are you trying to prove? And nothing to recover from except being kicked by a very strong man like Mace Windu? And yes, the smart fighter would retreat back to get away from the guy with the sword, especially as Palpatine had a place to blast Mace without risking a fall....or, y'know, just brush his hand to the side and hurl Mace out the window. And LOSING the duel? Wow, did Obi-wan lose the saber duel to Maul?

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, I'm pretty sure it was because of the lightning that his face got all goofy. Personally, I thought it was pretty weak. I liked the KOTOR explanation of the body becoming twisted over time with evil. I would have prefered an explanation along the lines of him hiding his true face with a force mask or something.

Who's to say it's not? Ian McDiarmid himself said he likes the explanation that that face is Palpatine's true face, twisted from years of the Dark Side....the evidence doesn't support Palpatine's face twisting because of the lightning: like I said, who else's face changed? Luke and Mace got nailed bad and they were fine cosmetically....lightning does not raise your eyebrows, it does not change the tone of your voice, create twisted wrinkles...hell, lightning would burn your face is anything....and lightning would not turn your eyes Sith yellow.

The idea that it was a mask the whole time is not so far fetched

1. Don't make me pull out the novelization. The movie shows neither of the occurances.

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions. - George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337

Janus posted this earlier. If I get up one morning, call myself an Author and decided to write a book about how a Jawa runs the Galaxy for 270,000 years, does that make it Canon?

HELL NO!

Since the ROTS Novelisation had several changes and flaws (Especially things that didn't even happen in the damn movie) and the book was written by some random author who has no association to Lucasfilm, does that make it Canon?

HELL NO!

I disregard the novelisation as shit. So go ahead. Bring it to the table. It wont do much.... At all.

2. Especially considering you do more than hold your own, you sorta win the fight...yeah, I'd say it has no bearing.

He won? LMAO! There was no "sorta" winning. He lost and then Anakin basically came and helped Sidious "KILL" Mace. The duel was over the second Mace WON it. Sidious manipulated Anakin and they KILLED Mace TOGETHER.

3. His own power? Who was using the lightning now? And who tried something and failed miserably, sending himself plummeting a hundred feet?

The same lightning that Yoda absorbed and sent flying back at Sidious with twice the power? Power that was so high, it even blasted himself off of the Pod?

Yoda failing reminds me of how Sidious failed to a handful of rebels, a Jedi with three years of experience, and a torso with artificial limbs.

4. We didn't see Obi-wan overpowering Maul, either, but at the end of the day who was lying in two pieces? And he tried to scramble away...what else were you expecting to do? Anyone with a tiny amount of brains would put distance between himself and his enemy to recover. Seriously, what the hell are you trying to prove? And nothing to recover from except being kicked by a very strong man like Mace Windu? And yes, the smart fighter would retreat back to get away from the guy with the sword, especially as Palpatine had a place to blast Mace without risking a fall....or, y'know, just brush his hand to the side and hurl Mace out the window. And LOSING the duel? Wow, did Obi-wan lose the saber duel to Maul?

A strong man? Wasn't Sidious the strongest Sith ever? According to some Author who has no relation to Lucas. I mean... The strongest Sith can recover quickly from a kick to his Lightsaber... Can't he?

Distance? Anyone with a tiny amount of brains knows that the opponent would just follow you as you scramble... Oh wait... MACE DID THAT!

No. Kenobi killed Maul after being hurled into a Generator.

Sidious shocked Mace out of a Window after help from his apprentice after he manipulated his apprentice to slice the hand off of the man who just defeated him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't know how anyone could think he didn't fake that entire lightning thing....Lucas only said he was exagerrating weakness there, he displays no signs of any injury afterwards, unleashes a lot more power on Mace than he was originally...looks at Anakin with a smirk on his face...maybe it's just me

And although many people think it's cheesy, Lucas intended that event the reason for Sidious' face being scarred.

overlord:Except there's a few continuity errors if ti was and Ian McDiarmid thinks differently. It was meant to be ambiguous. A triump card? Why WOULDn'T he fake it for Anakin there? And Lucas certainly took a large interest in TOTJ. Crack open either the TOTJ companion or Godlen Age of the Sith.

1. And things from the script mean what if they're not in the movie? Did Anakin fight Greedo on Tatooine? Did Grievous kill Shaak Ti?

2. Exactly. He manipulated Anakin. He lost the battle, won the war.

3. You do know in the ROTJ script, it was Palpatine's death that allowed the rebels to finish what they did? Or there was a little prophecy involved and Palpatine was focused completely on making Luke suffer. And twice the power? Yods wasn't throwing any lightning back, he blocking it. And he screwed it up.

4. Force strength isn't physical. Vodo and Yoda weren't physically imposing. Neither was King Ommin, Count Dooku or Arca Jeth. In build and phsycial strength, Mace>Most anyone. Oh, and those authors need to be approved by Lucas, they work for his company and KJA has known Lucas very well for a while...and this is an EU forum.
Wait, where's the standard here? Obi-wan lost a saber duel to Maul...he was disarmed and hanging on 'like a little girl' And knowing an opponent'd follow you doesn't change the fact you immediately get away from your enemy and recover. And how convenient Anakin came in becase Mace set himself up for being ripped out the window. Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin for years and manipulated him even more with the lightning. please, give a counterexample to how the weak Sidious fired far with far more intensity than when he'd first been using, how lightning didn't affect Luke or anyone else the same way-didn't turn their eyes Sith yellow or rot their teeth! How did the weak Sith get back to his feet as if nothing happened?
Palp's face gave him proof against the Jedi and got him Anakin, to him, I doubt that was a raw deal

1. And things from the script mean what if they're not in the movie? Did Anakin fight Greedo on Tatooine? Did Grievous kill Shaak Ti?

LOL! The parts shown in the script where it says that Yoda overpowered Sidious actually happened in the movie.

2. Exactly. He manipulated Anakin. He lost the battle, won the war. He was still defeated fairly and required assistance to destroy the Jedi Master.

3. You do know in the ROTJ script, it was Palpatine's death that allowed the rebels to finish what they did? Or there was a little prophecy involved and Palpatine was focused completely on making Luke suffer. And twice the power? Yods wasn't throwing any lightning back, he blocking it. And he screwed it up.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! He absorbed Sidious' Lightning in a ball of energy and blasted it back in his face. Yoda just flew farther because he is smaller and because of the massive power of the blast.

4. Force strength isn't physical. Vodo and Yoda weren't physically imposing. Neither was King Ommin, Count Dooku or Arca Jeth. In build and phsycial strength, Mace>Most anyone. Oh, and those authors need to be approved by Lucas, they work for his company and KJA has known Lucas very well for a while...and this is an EU forum.
Wait, where's the standard here? Obi-wan lost a saber duel to Maul...he was disarmed and hanging on 'like a little girl' And knowing an opponent'd follow you doesn't change the fact you immediately get away from your enemy and recover. And how convenient Anakin came in becase Mace set himself up for being ripped out the window. Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin for years and manipulated him even more with the lightning. please, give a counterexample to how the weak Sidious fired far with far more intensity than when he'd first been using, how lightning didn't affect Luke or anyone else the same way-didn't turn their eyes Sith yellow or rot their teeth! How did the weak Sith get back to his feet as if nothing happened?
Palp's face gave him proof against the Jedi and got him Anakin, to him, I doubt that was a raw deal [/QUOTE] [/B]

Databank sez:

Sidious' face MELTED because of the Lightning. Maybe he was just too old or couldn't handle his own Lightning.

Stop comparing Kenobi and Maul to Mace and Sidious. The fights were so very different.

Mace would not have got ripped out of the window. Sidious' first attempt failed when he tried to do with Lightning. He needed... Assistance after he failed for the second time trying to kill Windu.

Mace > Anyone is physical strength? I think Kit would give Mace a run for his money in a fist fight.

1. Lol. Name one time. If he was overpowering him, why did Yoda run away and not kill him? Why, could it be Sidious was neverpowered once in the fight?
2. Defeated fairly easily? Before or after killing three of the Order's best and drove Mace back?
3. Great. So, in other words Yoda screwed up. And according the novelization AND script, the power contained was too great to be contained and thus exploded in their faces. Yoda screwed that up. Face it.
4. No, the fights aren't. In both cases, a guy was apparently down. Sidious vs. Mace was simply interrupted. And give me a break. Palpatine was never in danger during the lightning scene. Lucas himself said he was faking and exagerrating in the commentary. And OMG, you use SO MUCH PROOF to support how Mace wouldn't have gone out the window? C'mon, why would Sidious use lightning which SO CONVENIENTLY alters his face and SO CONVENIENTLY gives him a second wind when anakin was SO CONVENIENTLY having doubts in front of the jedi he SO CONVIENTLY despised most when he'd been SO CONVENIENTLY filled with dobuts by the man who SO CONVENIENTLY was in danger? Why use lightning instead of a much surer Force Push now?
Read Shatterpoint and then tell me Mace is physically weak. And seriously....the databank never outright says it was the lightning that scarred him. And I'm getting tired of you avoiding this. Why did it affect Palpatine so? Why was:
1. Luke never affected that way.
2. Mace never affected that way.
3. Anakin never effected that way
4. Palpatine using much greater power than he was initially when he killed Mace and gets up like nothing happened.
5. smirks and looks to Anakin when he and Mace argue and grins broadly when Anakin attacks Mace.
6. Why Sith lightning changes Palpatine's voice. And his hair. And raises his eyebrows. And doesn't 'burn' like actual energy would. And turns his eyes Sith yellow. And rots his teeth.
7. How the EU states that the dark side energy on Korriban ravaged Palpatine's mortal frame into the withered appearance? Oh, wait they're just a hack author with no connection to Lucas until they write what you agree with

1. Lol. Name one time. If he was overpowering him, why did Yoda run away and not kill him? Why, could it be Sidious was neverpowered once in the fight?

Are you NOT getting it? Yoda blasted himself off of the Podium because he used too much power. He fell at least a hundred feet. At eight hundred years old, that ain't too pleasant.

2. Defeated fairly easily? Before or after killing three of the Order's best and drove Mace back?

Who said fairly easy? I said Mace overpowered him fairly. Read properly next time.

The Order's best?!? Please!

3. Great. So, in other words Yoda screwed up. And according the novelization AND script, the power contained was too great to be contained and thus exploded in their faces. Yoda screwed that up. Face it.

Who in the HELL said Yoda didn't screw up? You need to back up a few paces. Too great? Yoda was containing it fine. He just blended it with a blast of his own. Sidious knew this. DID YOU SEE his face?

4. No, the fights aren't. In both cases, a guy was apparently down. Sidious vs. Mace was simply interrupted. And give me a break. Palpatine was never in danger during the lightning scene. Lucas himself said he was faking and exagerrating in the commentary. And OMG, you use SO MUCH PROOF to support how Mace wouldn't have gone out the window? C'mon, why would Sidious use lightning which SO CONVENIENTLY alters his face and SO CONVENIENTLY gives him a second wind when anakin was SO CONVENIENTLY having doubts in front of the jedi he SO CONVIENTLY despised most when he'd been SO CONVENIENTLY filled with dobuts by the man who SO CONVENIENTLY was in danger? Why use lightning instead of a much surer Force Push now?

Okay then. I could ask you the same question as to why Mace didn't just completely rip Sidious apart. He had the perfect opportunity, seeing as he had already pretty much overpowered him.

Sidious wanted to fry Mace. Mace blocked it and Sidious went from there into faking it.

Read Shatterpoint and then tell me Mace is physically weak. And seriously....the databank never outright says it was the lightning that scarred him. And I'm getting tired of you avoiding this. Why did it affect Palpatine so? Why was:
1. Luke never affected that way.
2. Mace never affected that way.
3. Anakin never effected that way
4. Palpatine using much greater power than he was initially when he killed Mace and gets up like nothing happened.
5. smirks and looks to Anakin when he and Mace argue and grins broadly when Anakin attacks Mace.
6. Why Sith lightning changes Palpatine's voice. And his hair. And raises his eyebrows. And doesn't 'burn' like actual energy would. And turns his eyes Sith yellow. And rots his teeth.
7. How the EU states that the dark side energy on Korriban ravaged Palpatine's mortal frame into the withered appearance? Oh, wait they're just a hack author with no connection to Lucas until they write what you agree with

NO ONE CALLED MACE PHYSICALLY WEAK! What the hell is wrong with you!??!?

I am getting tired of your lame ass excuses!

Databank SEZZZ:

The evil energies twisted Palpatine's face as they flowed through him, scarring and disfiguring his once handsome features

Can you read that properly? Or are you going to misinterperet something I say AGAIN?

If Palpatines face melted, wouldn't that destroy his eyes? Why does he still have his teeth? I'm not saying I totally belive that it was just a mask, but it seemd like a really good excuse for Sidious to prove that the jedi tried to assassinat him. That was the only way to prove it.

The point were Yoda deflects Palpatines lightning, well yes he is stronger than Palpatine, but he still can't do it.
As we saw, his attempt to drive it back at Sidious failed into an explosion causing him more damage because of his light weight. So Sidious would always win in a lightning duel vs Yoda, even though it is only because of physical weaknesses on Yoda's part.

I wouldn't really say that... Palpatine was launched back as well... Yoda was lighter and wasn't standing inside the pod Palps was. Palps actually flew further then Yoda both barely managed to hang on, but Palps succeeded Yoda didn't... If they were in any other possition or Palps wouldn't have been one the inside of that Pod Palps would be screwed.