Nom Anor VS Kir Kanos

Ok, Sorgo, let's have some proof Yoda's own power blew it back now, c'mon. Let's have some proof Palpatine was scared there because he knew the danger. And stop dancing aorund this point: Yoda screwed up

Wow, the databank goes against EXACTLY what Lucas said on the commentary! That's a new one....and once handsome features? Okaaaaay......now it's time to prove, even if that's true in the least, that Palpatine didn't allow it to happen to trick Anakin and give his story more credence. According to Lucas, Palpatine was tricking Anakin the whole time with the Force lightning. Now, your turn, Sorgo: Why does lightning affect noone else that way, rot Palp's teeth and turn his eyes Sithy yellow?

And I should ask you why Sidious didn't kill Mace during the....three times Mace left himself open.

And yes, Order's best. Shall I provide quotes? Maybe feats of Agen, Saesee and Kit? That was Palpatine's skill not their weakness.

By the way, Sorgo, I don't disrespect or dislike you, I'm not a Sidious fanboy, nor is he my favorite Sith or character. However, this is my position and I'm sticking to it and if you be civil, I'll return the favor.

Another note is, on the commentary track, Lucas says that the extreme use of the dark side and power has ruined Sidious's features, during the lightning scene, feel free to check it out

Ok, Sorgo, let's have some proof Yoda's own power blew it back now, c'mon. Let's have some proof Palpatine was scared there because he knew the danger. And stop dancing aorund this point: Yoda screwed up

I am not dancing around the point. Do not be a fool. I have clearly told you he screwed up so stop try to catch me in a Corner.... When there is no Corner to catch me in, Lightsnake.

WTF!!!! Yoda absorbed it and released the Lightning with his own power back at Sidious. Sidious KNEW THIS. Did you see the terrified look on his face? The only reason Yoda went back so far was because of his own damned power.

Wow, the databank goes against EXACTLY what Lucas said on the commentary! That's a new one....and once handsome features? Okaaaaay......now it's time to prove, even if that's true in the least, that Palpatine didn't allow it to happen to trick Anakin and give his story more credence. According to Lucas, Palpatine was tricking Anakin the whole time with the Force lightning. Now, your turn, Sorgo: Why does lightning affect noone else that way, rot Palp's teeth and turn his eyes Sithy yellow?

The commentary? Pardon? It says Sidious' face was a cover-up? Since when, Lightsnake?

And I should ask you why Sidious didn't kill Mace during the....three times Mace left himself open.

Sidious didn't have a chance. And it was only ONCE and Sidious' arm was fully extended and Mace was backing off. Sidious wasn't faking it before Anakin walked in so don't try it. GL says it in the commentary and the Databank says it.

And yes, Order's best. Shall I provide quotes? Maybe feats of Agen, Saesee and Kit? That was Palpatine's skill not their weakness.

They all got owned... Badly... They couldn't block a single hit except for the Nautolan. They just aren't that good.

How do you know it wasn't the lightning coupled with having nowhere else to go? That Yoda was ready to give his life to stop Palpatine and Palpatine knew it could have catastrophic results?

The commentary said it was dark side energy Palpatine had used that turned his face like that, not it being reflected in his face. Like I said, since when does lightning ruin your face and turn your eyes yellow?

Fine, I'll attribute the entire fight to poor choreography.
And 'just weren't that good?' Maybe Palpatine just is THAT good. Afterall, why didn't Mace stop him? Why didn't Kit react? All three of those Jedi Mace held in great esteem. Agen's saber skills and Kit's martial arts prowess took even Mace aback

How do you know it wasn't the lightning coupled with having nowhere else to go? That Yoda was ready to give his life to stop Palpatine and Palpatine knew it could have catastrophic results?

Yoda used his own damned force! Why didn't Sidious lightning knock him off in the first place even with Yoda absorbing it? Yoda sent his lightning back with a blast of his own Force. I'm sure Lightning just explodes into a ball. Why wouldn't it stream back to him normally? Why explode in a swirly blue ball? Wait! Maybe Yoda applied some of his own power!

The commentary said it was dark side energy Palpatine had used that turned his face like that, not it being reflected in his face. Like I said, since when does lightning ruin your face and turn your eyes yellow?

Since Sidious decided to be stupid and underestimate Mace.

Fine, I'll attribute the entire fight to poor choreography.
And 'just weren't that good?' Maybe Palpatine just is THAT good. Afterall, why didn't Mace stop him? Why didn't Kit react? All three of those Jedi Mace held in great esteem. Agen's saber skills and Kit's martial arts prowess took even Mace aback

Actually, the entire fight is pretty bad choreography.

If you've seen pictures, Sassee had a perfect opportunity to kill Sidious. There was PLENTY of time between stabs. I have seen the time scale while the movie has been running. And where were Mace and Kit? Having a Coffee? It was BAD choreography. Bottom line.

1. Please, proof Yoda 'used his own force' and intended to make it explode there? PErhaps the explosion had something to do with compression.
2. You're avoiding the question: Why does it only affect Palpatine that way? Why would LIGHTNING /melt/ your face, turn your eyes sithy yellow and rot your teeth?
3. I know, that's what I've always said when people bring up how weak and pathetic Kit, Saesee and Agen were.

1. Well that pretty much is what we see Yoda do, block the attack and then push it back.. Now he cuoldn't have pushed it back without using the force.

2. Burning effect.. He suffered from it harder and longer then most other people. That and the fact that he was using all he had in it, might have made it like that. In Kotor we see Revan his face change because he becomes Dark it might have something like that couppled with the returning lightning.

3. Well they did suck in that fight pure and simple, when you watch that fight its pretty clear that none of them could even lift a finger against Mace who did manage to block more then one attack and who saw it coming.

1. Doesn't mean he made it explode.

2. Luke got fried much longer. Mace got fried the same. And when revan removes his mask, he looks fine. Lucas said on commentary his excessive use of the darkside warped his face.

3. Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, Palpatine is good enough to kill three Jedi Masters of the council in seconds. They sucked up against Palpatine, pure and simple. and I trust Mace's assessment of their skills more than anything else

1. No but it does mean he pushed the force back, the two attacks together probably made it explode because of to much power being concetrated in one area.

2. Not as hard though and Luke didn't do the frying.

3. Yet Mace his assement is completely wrong as we can see in the fight. If he thinks those guys can match him then he has never once fought a real fight against them. Because they got pwned in seconds when Mace actually managed to take Sidious.

Why we are talking about Sidious vs. Mace in a thread with Kanos and Anor, I have no idea, but I'll play along.

Perhaps they were expecting something like Maul out of Sidious. Someone who they would have been able to stand against well for a long time since TPM Obi-wan was able to do it. They probably figured he was the apprentice since Dooku was so much older and stuff.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Doesn't mean he made it explode.

2. Luke got fried much longer. Mace got fried the same. And when revan removes his mask, he looks fine. Lucas said on commentary his excessive use of the darkside warped his face.

3. Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, Palpatine is good enough to kill three Jedi Masters of the council in seconds. They sucked up against Palpatine, pure and simple. and I trust Mace's assessment of their skills more than anything else

I agree with the second post.
Sidious face started to deform almost in the beginning, so it started at like 6 seconds after he had begun.

Actually on the second thing, it is stated in Kotor and you can clearly see in Kotor that Revan his face changes a lot when he goes Dark.

Mace has trained with and seen those three fight all his life. Is it really so difficult to comprehend Sidious was just THAT good?

1. Please, proof Yoda 'used his own force' and intended to make it explode there? PErhaps the explosion had something to do with compression.
2. You're avoiding the question: Why does it only affect Palpatine that way? Why would LIGHTNING /melt/ your face, turn your eyes sithy yellow and rot your teeth?
3. I know, that's what I've always said when people bring up how weak and pathetic Kit, Saesee and Agen were. [/QUOTE]

1. So... Yoda absorbs the Lightning and the Lightning changes color, acts as a large ball of energy and doesn't stream back to Sidious but instead converts to an explosive power for no reason? I don't think so.

2. Why not? It's powerful enough. Not all Sith have yellow eyes and rotted teeth. And according to GL, the Dark Side basically eats you alive and rots you. Maybe the capacity of the darkness in his own Lightning enhanced that process.

3. But they are! Did you see the scene? It was so bad.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
overlord:Except there's a few continuity errors if ti was and Ian McDiarmid thinks differently. It was meant to be ambiguous. A triump card? Why WOULDn'T he fake it for Anakin there? And Lucas certainly took a large interest in TOTJ. Crack open either the TOTJ companion or Godlen Age of the Sith.

1. And things from the script mean what if they're not in the movie? Did Anakin fight Greedo on Tatooine? Did Grievous kill Shaak Ti?

2. Exactly. He manipulated Anakin. He lost the battle, won the war.

3. You do know in the ROTJ script, it was Palpatine's death that allowed the rebels to finish what they did? Or there was a little prophecy involved and Palpatine was focused completely on making Luke suffer. And twice the power? Yods wasn't throwing any lightning back, he blocking it. And he screwed it up.

4. Force strength isn't physical. Vodo and Yoda weren't physically imposing. Neither was King Ommin, Count Dooku or Arca Jeth. In build and phsycial strength, Mace>Most anyone. Oh, and those authors need to be approved by Lucas, they work for his company and KJA has known Lucas very well for a while...and this is an EU forum.
Wait, where's the standard here? Obi-wan lost a saber duel to Maul...he was disarmed and hanging on 'like a little girl' And knowing an opponent'd follow you doesn't change the fact you immediately get away from your enemy and recover. And how convenient Anakin came in becase Mace set himself up for being ripped out the window. Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin for years and manipulated him even more with the lightning. please, give a counterexample to how the weak Sidious fired far with far more intensity than when he'd first been using, how lightning didn't affect Luke or anyone else the same way-didn't turn their eyes Sith yellow or rot their teeth! How did the weak Sith get back to his feet as if nothing happened?
Palp's face gave him proof against the Jedi and got him Anakin, to him, I doubt that was a raw deal

As for the well put out theory you made..
It's just not realistic enough that Sidious planned the exact arrival of the jedi and Anakin and knew exactly what was going to happen. It's all too much variables for him to manipulate.
Contrary to popular believes.. Sidious just doesn't control fate.

If the theory was right then Sidious would have controlled Mace and Anakin's minds. Because Mace still fought on his own and it was all up to him whether Palpatine would've died and Anakin coming in at a certain point was just luck too for Sidious.
It's all far too much variables for Sidious to have all had in a grand plan.

Lucas doesn't say that Mace defeated him in his own right for no reason.
Lucas clearly intended that Sidious was very lucky at times due to his skills and also was very unlucky at times just like basic reality.

Originally posted by Sorgo
[B]1. Please, proof Yoda 'used his own force' and intended to make it explode there? PErhaps the explosion had something to do with compression.
2. You're avoiding the question: Why does it only affect Palpatine that way? Why would LIGHTNING /melt/ your face, turn your eyes sithy yellow and rot your teeth?
3. I know, that's what I've always said when people bring up how weak and pathetic Kit, Saesee and Agen were.

1. So... Yoda absorbs the Lightning and the Lightning changes color, acts as a large ball of energy and doesn't stream back to Sidious but instead converts to an explosive power for no reason? I don't think so.

2. Why not? It's powerful enough. Not all Sith have yellow eyes and rotted teeth. And according to GL, the Dark Side basically eats you alive and rots you. Maybe the capacity of the darkness in his own Lightning enhanced that process.

3. But they are! Did you see the scene? It was so bad. [/B][/QUOTE]

1. Changes color? It was dark blue to violet from the start. And did you read what I said about energy and pressure?

2. Why didn't it effect Anakin, Luke and Mace in that way? lightning wouldn't cause what should be an internal reaction. And why would lightning turn your eyes /SITH YELLOW?/ Maul had those eyes, Anakin had them, Palpatine had them...why would it effect his how high his eyebrows are, teeth and voice? Why's it so unlikely that he just decided to fake the lightning? Ian McDiarmid likes that theory, along with the 'true face idea'....it certainly betters sidious's character and deviousness, it makes sense to why he tried lightning instead of a rudimentary force push or that lightning with the push he used when he actually killed Mace

3. The scene was bad but the Jedi weren't. Unless we believe Jango fett can't duck.

Originally posted by overlord
Ian McDiarmid prefers this theory like many people. I wish it were true also but Lucas clearly intended it to be the reason to why Sidious' face got scarred. Lucas is just cheesy like that. Read the original ROTJ script and find out how much of a writer he is in reality.

[b]As for the well put out theory you made..
It's just not realistic enough that Sidious planned the exact arrival of the jedi and Anakin and knew exactly what was going to happen. It's all too much variables for him to manipulate.
Contrary to popular believes.. Sidious just doesn't control fate.

If the theory was right then Sidious would have controlled Mace and Anakin's minds. Because Mace still fought on his own and it was all up to him whether Palpatine would've died and Anakin coming in at a certain point was just luck too for Sidious.
It's all far too much variables for Sidious to have all had in a grand plan.

Lucas doesn't say that Mace defeated him in his own right for no reason.
Lucas clearly intended that Sidious was very lucky at times due to his skills and also was very unlucky at times just like basic reality. [/B]

Sidious doesn't control fate, but he manipulates it well enough. Who says he controlled their minds instead of using what he knew the entire time? Mace was also planning to ARREST Sidious....how suicidal was that?

1. Please, proof Yoda 'used his own force' and intended to make it explode there? PErhaps the explosion had something to do with compression.

My god... Even if it did explode from pure compression, the Lightning still owuld have acted out of control and it would have shocked Sidious. Instead it was a circular blast. It wouldn't convert like that. It was Yoda's blast.

2. You're avoiding the question: Why does it only affect Palpatine that way? Why would LIGHTNING /melt/ your face, turn your eyes sithy yellow and rot your teeth?

Why not? The massive energy of Sidious' darkside energy must have turned into that. Notice how the Siths skin don't rot and turn yellow right away. EG: Dooku, Maul, Anakin.....

Sidious' face looked damned melted. Dark side energies turn your face into that sort of mess. The quick and powerful Force of his Lightning sped up the process.

3. I know, that's what I've always said when people bring up how weak and pathetic Kit, Saesee and Agen were.

Just making sure you at least understood that concept.

1. I don't think either of us can claim to be experts in Force physics....it's pure energy as is and the explosion could be caused from the result of compression from both of them...it'd make no sense for Yoda to attempt something so risky with such a small chance of actual success.

2. Anakin's eyes altered quickly. Why's it so unlikely Sidious's face was already like that and he covered it up? Hell, Ian McDiarmid himself prefers that and has commented on it...though lightning, as shown with Luke, doesn't melt your face-wouldn't it, being pure energy, burn him instead?...all EU sources point to him, the commentary makes comment to the use of the darkside altering him...
3. I understand it just fine, sorgo. My argument is: They weren't bad fighters, the scene just sucked.

2. Ian is not an authority on the matter. His theory's are not important.. What he likes and doesn't like isn't important either. Fact is, that the Dark Side turns you into that.

Fact is that he unleashed more energy into the Dark Side then ever before, its very possible that he was holding back the change through the force because he didn't want to be discovered but when he unleashed the dark side he couldn't anymore. Whatever the case the lightning changed his face, and the rest weren't affected like that because they didn't use the Dark Side to do it and they unlike Sidious weren't the one's that fired the lightning and got it reflected in their own face.

3. They were bad fighters however... They sucked compared to Mace, Sidious took those three out easily then had a hard time with Mace and actually lost. Those three sucked compared to mace pure and simple.