Spectre runs loose in the MU

Originally posted by Beyonder
The Magus wouldn't need Galactus and Eternity to appeal to LT to allow the Infinity Gauntlet to work again if those words weren't binding.

He couldn't get the thing working even with five Cosmic Cubes to grant wishes. LT reversed his ruling and the IG worked again.

The ruling was completed after Adam agreed to it. The words in themselves didnt automatically dismantle the IG. The very fact that LT says that if Adam didnt agree that he would have to enforce his ruling with physical force supports what im saying. Sorry Be. 🙁

Originally posted by Beyonder
Physical force? LT wasn't even affected. LT was never on the defensive. The IG couldn't do a thing to LT. Prove me wrong on that.

Youre missing the point B yet again. As aformentioned LT said that without Adams consent he would have to back up his ruling via a confrontation. If the IG was nothing to LT if countering its power with a snap of the fingers equated to LT being superior to the IG then it wouldnt be a confrontation that "would lay waste to reality".

If LTs words were solely what dismantled the IG as you claim surely such a confrontation would be unnecessary if Adam disagreed. Not according to LT im afraid. Case closed.

Originally posted by Beyonder
I guess your going to argue Odin isn't more powerful than Thanos since Odin couldn't put Thanos out. Or that Oshtur and Hoggoth together weren't more powerful than Agamotto because they reasoned with him into letting Galactus and Strange leave. .

More rubbish and ill thought out comparisons. With the Odin thing he at least has feats which let you know hes way beyond Thanos and in the end he clearly had the upper hand against Thanos. Something he achieved with an application of power. LT has no feats to support him being beyond the IG, he counters a measure of its power and then goes on to agree that he doesnt know whether he has the power to stand up against it in battle. All of that before talking Adam out of such a confrontation, one where he never claimed he was going to be the victor.

As for the Osh and Hog thing they are a part of the Vishanti along with Aggy. They were not involved in the confrontation between Galactus and Agg they had no personal stakes in it therefore talking out a peer from engaging in unnecessary battle says nothing. It certainly doesnt make the point you desired it to. Adam was threatening LT's work, he attacked LT and talked as if he was more powerful than him. Totally different.

Originally posted by Beyonder
When did he agree with Warlock? He ruled against Warlock. If Warlock fought, reality would be wasted. Reality would suffer, not LT. He's never been affected by the IG.

LTs never been in the position to be affected by the IG. He was powerful enough to counter a blast of power from it but later he agreed with Adam that he was unsure of whether he had the power to stand up against the IG. On top of that he admitted that in order to enforce his ruling he would need to confront Adam in a battle that would destroy the universe. For such a confrontation to reach such epic proportions the IG would have to mean just a lil something to LT wouldnt you say?

Either way Adam finished off LT's sentence and LT never disagreed with the ending. Adams words were what LT was going to say anyway. The on panel depiction of them staring each other out supports my case.

You have no on panel support whatsoever to claim LT is more powerful than the IG. The events of Infinity Watch as depicted by the scans support that.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Eternity never claimed he could counter. Strange didn't do what LT did. Get that through your head.

Even better than that he said in his totality the IGs ability to affect him would be non existent. I have posted the scan previously in this thread i will not cater for anyones poor recollection.

Originally posted by Beyonder
LT never agreed. :laughing:

He certainly did. If Adam never finished off his sentence he would have said it himself. The fact that LT never disagreed with what Adam said in finishing off his sentence and the fact that they stared each other out says it all.

Originally posted by Beyonder
You high or something? Warlock said that.

Dealt with.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Except when the IG was operational again after Eternity appealed and LT reversed the ruling. And when the IG was non-operational after Eternity reversed his earlier appeal.

Something that was made possible by Adam not using the Igs power to resist LT in his ruling. A confrontation LT talked Adam out of, a confrontation which LT agreed he didnt have a clue how he would fare in.

Originally posted by Beyonder
On the same tier? LT's able to prevent the IG from working in unison while the IG hasn't done a thing to LT. Your so confused.

Again only achievable with Adams consent. LT had the power to counter a single blast from the IG something even Eternity claimed to be able to do. On top of that in battle with the IG he doesnt know who would win. You have no case. More speculation. Unsupported at that.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Actually he never claims to be the most powerful. He's created to guard the multiverse. He's the servant of TOAA.

He's the servant of a being beyond the IG and the Eternity. Thats all. LT guards the multiverse the Phoenix power created and sustains. If you wish to make assumptions based merely on LT's role then you must be willing to take other beings into consideration. It works both ways.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Yeah, it's not like some of us who claim Phoenix's role makes her an Aspect of GOD and therefore greater than HOTU and LT. But, it's cool.

Nope. I never once said that her role alone makes her an aspect of the supreme being. I said her role alongside the many, many references and parallels drawn on panel made her an aspect of God. While i still believe that as i have support on panel, its not actually stated on panel so with time i learned to accept that its not canon. While you may wish to believe LT works for Marvels supreme being (which is cool) you must accept that until its stated him working for Marvels supreme being isnt canon. You have nothing but LTs role and a few vague comments stating his master is beyond the IG. You have no case.

gs sayeth:

<<He agreed that he didnt know how his power would stand up against Adams therefore he needed to persuade Adam into abiding by his ruling. The act of making the ruling didnt dismantle the IG in itself.>>

hey, gs, which scan does lt say he doesn't know how his power would stand up to the ig? i read them and didn't see it. there is also a point in one of the scans where toaa is mentioned as his master. that's actually more of a demonstrated relationship than i'd known existed . . . i know it's not really relevent, but wiki speculates that toaa is his boss as well.

still, your premise remains correct i think -- if VERY repititious . . . 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Also id love for you to show me where its stated or shown that Adam employed all of the gems in his attack on the court. I didnt see any reality warping, time manipulation etc or anything on panel to indicate it was anything more than a power blast. You assume too much Bey. Show me where thats stated or how thats indicated otherwise be silent on the matter.

Again no scanner; however, against the deities Thanos' used the full might of his power.

Right before Thanos fights with the deities. Infinity Gauntlet #5

Mephisto to Eros: I fancy your borther is about to put on quite a show for us, young Eros! With such grand fores aligned against him, Thanos will unleash the full fury of his power.

Infinity Wars #5. The heroes get ready to attack the Magus and save Warlock before the IG is activated. Cap to Thanos.

Captain America: We nearly took you down when you possessed the Gauntlet and you had plenty of time to get used to omnipotence!
Thanos: That was a fluke, and I had geared down my power levels.

Compare Thanos and Warlock's fight with the deities and that of Warlock against Strange. Big difference. Thanos need to be at full level to fight the deitie - Warlock was no difference.

The fact remains that in both circumstances the full power of the IG wasnt employed and in both circumstances they both only countered the power. Lt was more successful because hes more powerful than Strange.

Against the deities, the wielders never geared down their levels. It took their full power to fight the deities; hence, Nebula was held down for a time by the deities and why Warlock decided to attack her before he got used to using the IG.

LT negated and reversed a more powerful attack. Strange countered individual gems.

The same thing stands for why he dealt with Adams attack better than the abstracts yet even Eternity said if he employed his totality against the IG it wouldnt be able to affect him in any way. Nowhere is it shown or stated that LT is beyond the IG. Thats just your fantasy. Keep it behind closed doors. 😮

Please, how many times have you seen Eternity employ his totality for anything? Everything we've seen of Eternity, Chaos, Order, and Celestials is there M-Bodies.

In a forum, are you going to bring Eternity's totality into the equation? Maybe the Celestials true forms/totality should be brought into play as well. 🙄

A point not very well made by yourself as per usual. At least where Phoenix is linked on numerous occassions in numerous titles to God (unlike some 🙂 ) she has not only the feats, but also the role to back it up. Phoenix is after all the creator of the multiverse.

Linked? White Crown? GOD? Again, words like that are thrown around all the time.

Feats? Recently she's had some feats. Other feats included getting killed, once by Magneto. In his first appearance, LT was already the guardian of the Multiverse. And unlike Phoenix, LT make that many appearances and isn't linked to one title. So what did you expect regarding more feats to chose from? Less we forget that Phoenix was low level cosmic to begin with? Couldn't even beat one Celestial.

Garbage. You've lost yourself. Refer back to my previous posts and read again, carefully this time.

Refer back to nothing. When did the Infinity Watch say anything?

Thats all thats stated about LT's master so thats all that can be claimed about him. Fact!! 🙂 LTs master may have created him to watch over the multiverse but you cant equate him to the supreme being based on that alone.

I guess the Infinity Well, Eternity, Galactus, and the other deities were lying. And being Guardian of the Multiverse, yet only a servant of "One Above All," doesn't equate to anything. Boy, for someone who isn't the supreme being of the Multiverse, TOAA sure likes to go around granting positions and entrusting the Multiverse to his servant. 🙄

If we were to just go by indications and not hard stated fact then we would all be accepting Phoenix as the power of the supreme being. She after all creates the multiverse LT is appointed to guard.

No, actually Siseg-Neg and the Infinity Being did. Wait wait, or was it all three? 🙄

You are a lost cause Bey. I have told you the reason why Strange was mentioned and yet youre still after many an explanation posting about how poorly he compares to LT. Its cool if you dont understand. Others who have read the thread have and that is why theyve posted their support . 🙁

Understand? You seem to think Strange could've block that same attack LT did or any of the ones from Thanos against the deities.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]The point of the matter is that Eternity as he stated could stand up to the IG if he faced it in his totality, however as his totality is the actual 616 universe he could not do that without disastrous effects on all that lies within said universe.

? Then with his M-Body, he got stomped. With his totality, he can stand up to it but it would result in disasterous effects on 616 - which is him. That really makes sense.

With that in mind LT countering the power of the IG to such a level isnt something only achievable by him, its also not an action which automatically places him above the IG.

LT does it on a whim. If it was Eternity's totality took that shot, the result is nothing from the IG - but using his totality would have disasterous effects on 616...which is him.

It was a counter and nothing more. As aforementioned you would need to have on panel LT overcoming Adam in battle or displaying a feat of power beyond any the IG has shown to say hes superior to it. You have none of those things therefore you have no case. 🙁

Countered and restored everyone including Eternity who one page ago was on his knees. Lets see Strange snap his fingers negate what the deities couldn't and restore Eternity and the other deities.

That isnt what i was trying to say at all. Ive explained to you many a time why i even mentioned Strange. You seem to have bypassed that point with every attempt at a rebuttal. As a result the majority of your posts have all been about discrediting Strange which doesnt affect my argument at all so youre wasting your time because youre missing the point. Refer back to previous posts so you can catch up. I'll wait for you.

I've refered to it. Your saying LT countering the IG wasn't that impressive since Strange also did. You, however, neglected the output of power in both showings. If the other deities couldn't block that attack while LT was the only one - that's called a feat.

As aforementioned show me where it was stated or shown that Adam employed all the gems in his attack on the court. We saw no indication of that whatsoever. Adam just unleashed a blast of energy which repelled the abstracts. Your argument is 100% speculation and for that im ever so sorry. 🙁

Against the deities, all wielders needed the full power to fight them. Mephisto commented on this; Thanos did it a year later in Infinity Wars. Hence an inexperienced Nebula was having trouble with the deities. She could access it's full powers and they were trying to prevent her from doing so. Otherwises no of the wielders would affect the deities couldn't beat them.

Eternity uses M bodies to manifest within himself as he cant obviously employ his totality within his totality. He was saying that if he employed his totality he would be easily stand up to Adam himself.

And how many times has he appeared in his totality? Do you even know where to gauge Eternity's totality? He's never appeared in his totality. All his powers are gauged through his appearances...which is his M-Body.

So we know its something thats possible but presumably with disastrous consequences because of all of the life that exists within said totality. My point is that LT isnt the only one who can so successfully counter the IG. However all it was was a counter there was nothing stated or shown that conclusively proves LT even equates to the IG. You've just made the jump and said that hes beyond the IG, disregarding the fact that LT never too the IG by force but actually talked Adam out of a confrontation.

When did I say he was beyond? I said LT>IG, not beyond. And LT did what a host of deities couldn't. And a handful of that group also appear only in there M-Bodies.

LT doesnt have the on panel feats to place him above the IG. He doesnt have the feats to equate himself to the IG. He countered its power, something Strange has done (less successfully because hes less powerful) and something Eternity can apparrently do if allowed to employ his full power.

So your saying if Strange was there, he could've stopped Warlock's attack; the one Eternity, Galactus, and a Watcher couldn't?

Against Strange, Warlock never used his full might. What part of that don't you understand? Strange was missing or locked up three times when the IG wielder fought the deities. Missing when the deities fought Thanos, bound by Nebula, and never showed up for the trial.

It was only a counter nothing more. The scene confirms only that LT is the supreme physical being and nothing more.

And what did Warlock do to LT? Nothing, only threats.

Your understanding leaves me despairing sometimes. 😂

Then I'm happy.

LTs ruling was just words, words he needed to enforce with an application of power. He agreed that he didnt know how his power would stand up against Adams therefore he needed to persuade Adam into abiding by his ruling. The act of making the ruling didnt dismantle the IG in itself.

Magus has the IG but is still incappable of operating it in unison. Just words?

Words and yet the IG works again.

If LT could just make a ruling and his word would become reality then after coming to a decision he would have had no need to persuade Adam to abide by it. If Adam didnt abide by it then they wouldve had to have battled it out as LT stated himself on panel. A battle which would have destroyed the universe. Therefore he made Adam abide by his ruling by taking him on a guilt trip 🙂

Meaning reality was pay if Warlock resisted. Asgard was wrecked during Odin and Thanos' fight. It too was wrecked during Odin's fight with Seth. Now are you going to tell me that just because Seth and Thanos resisted - it proves that Odin was not more powerful than them?

Reality would have been wrecked. LT sought other means before fighting Warlock for it. Still doesn't mean LT isn't more powerful that Warlock. Warlock hasn't affected LT in any way, only the deities. Warlock was on the defensive the whole time trying to threaten LT.

Warlock gave up because of fears the consequences. LT passed his judgement already, it was a matter of whether reality was going to be wrecked by Warlock's decision.

With Adam in agreement the ruling was completed and the court session was adjourned

Proving that Warlock was afraid of his reality end if they fought. Doesn't prove LT isn't more powerful than the IG. Warlock was afraid, not LT. The threats and attacks came from Warlock. He's yet to even affect LT.

Originally posted by Beyonder

Strange K.O.ed just by info about Eternity. - Infinity Wars

IW, Death's Infinity Well also claims the IG wielder as omnipotent and GOD.

And LT does serve TOAA. LT also stopped the IG from working.

Magus needed LT to allow the IG to work again. With 5 Cosmic Cubes, Magus was hidding from LT and Galactus.

Eternity appeals and LT activates the IG again.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The ruling was completed after Adam agreed to it. The words in themselves didnt automatically dismantle the IG. The very fact that LT says that if Adam didnt agree that he would have to enforce his ruling with physical force supports what im saying. Sorry Be. 🙁

It shows the LT can dismantle the IG. What being present could make such a ruling? You think the IG itself to doing a thing to LT? It never even affected him.

Youre missing the point B yet again. As aformentioned LT said that without Adams consent he would have to back up his ruling via a confrontation. If the IG was nothing to LT if countering its power with a snap of the fingers equated to LT being superior to the IG then it wouldnt be a confrontation that "would lay waste to reality".

Yes, which means reality would pay. Doesn't mean the LT isn't more powerful than IG. LT was going to fight Warlock for it, if Warlock resisted. Doesn't mean LT couldn't have beaten Warlock. Again, show me where LT was ever affected by the IG?

If LTs words were solely what dismantled the IG as you claim surely such a confrontation would be unnecessary if Adam disagreed. Not according to LT im afraid. Case closed.

Magus with 5 Cosmic Cubes from different realities couldn't reverse such a ruling. LT had the power to dismantle it and reassemble it. That's called a feat.

More rubbish and ill thought out comparisons. With the Odin thing he at least has feats which let you know hes way beyond Thanos and in the end he clearly had the upper hand against Thanos.

Feats? You couldn't tell from that fight alone that Odin was Thanos' superior?

And in the end, Thanos got up and both were about to fight again when Bill and Sif intervened. Odin couldn't put Thanos down and Asgard was getting ripped apart. Still didn't mean Odin wasn't more powerful.

Odin was in any danger; Thanos couldn't do a thing to harm him. Again, show me where LT was harmed by Warlock the same way the deities were?

Something he achieved with an application of power. LT has no feats to support him being beyond the IG, he counters a measure of its power and then goes on to agree that he doesnt know whether he has the power to stand up against it in battle. All of that before talking Adam out of such a confrontation, one where he never claimed he was going to be the victor.

When did I say he was beyond the IG? I said he was more powerful that the IG. Other than wrecking reality, where did it indicate that LT would lose or harm if they fought? Both Warlock and LT did not want reality to be wrecked, didn't mean LT wasn't more powerful.

As for the Osh and Hog thing they are a part of the Vishanti along with Aggy. They were not involved in the confrontation between Galactus and Agg they had no personal stakes in it therefore talking out a peer from engaging in unnecessary battle says nothing. It certainly doesnt make the point you desired it to. Adam was threatening LT's work, he attacked LT and talked as if he was more powerful than him. Totally different.

During that trial, Warlock didn't think TOAA was more powerful than him. He only brought up TOAA when it suited him to discourage LT from giving the IG to Eternity and leaving it as is. Warlock even commented on how there shouldn't even be a trial. He thought he was more powerful than everyone there.

As for Oshtur and Hoggoth, both we his equal. Galactus and Agamotto's fight was already wrecking dimensions; they talked him out of it because they didn't want more devastion - not because they couldn't beat him. They avoided such confrontation to prevent more damage; LT wanted to avoid such confrontation to prevent damage to reality. Same thing.

LTs never been in the position to be affected by the IG. He was powerful enough to counter a blast of power from it but later he agreed with Adam that he was unsure of whether he had the power to stand up against the IG.

When did he say he agreed? He didn't want such confrontation because reality would be wrecked.

On top of that he admitted that in order to enforce his ruling he would need to confront Adam in a battle that would destroy the universe. For such a confrontation to reach such epic proportions the IG would have to mean just a lil something to LT wouldnt you say?

When did he admit that?

It means that reality would be wrecked if they fought. It didn't mean LT would have lost or would be harmed by the IG - only reality. Hence LT wanted to avoid such consequences by asking Warlock to submit to the judgement. Doesn't mean LT isn't more powerful than the IG; it just means he has to fight for it.

Either way Adam finished off LT's sentence and LT never disagreed with the ending. Adams words were what LT was going to say anyway. The on panel depiction of them staring each other out supports my case.

He didn't, and then he ruled against Warlock without hesitation while Warlock's only defense being the master of his space, reality, soul, etc.

You have no on panel support whatsoever to claim LT is more powerful than the IG. The events of Infinity Watch as depicted by the scans support that.

The events show Warlock not able to affect LT. It shows reality being devasted if they fought, not that LT would be harmed. Infinity Wars shows LT reassembling and dissambling the IG. Even with five Cosmic Cubes, Magus needed LT to do it.

Even better than that he said in his totality the IGs ability to affect him would be non existent. I have posted the scan previously in this thread i will not cater for anyones poor recollection.

And when has he ever used his totality or appeared that way? You actually gauge Eternity or the Celestials using there totality? Please, no one does.

He certainly did. If Adam never finished off his sentence he would have said it himself. The fact that LT never disagreed with what Adam said in finishing off his sentence and the fact that they stared each other out says it all.

Then LT rules against Warlock while Warlock does nothing but threatens LT.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]Something that was made possible by Adam not using the Igs power to resist LT in his ruling. A confrontation LT talked Adam out of, a confrontation which LT agreed he didnt have a clue how he would fare in.

He never said that. Where you get that I don't know. He knew such confrontation would wreck reality and talked Warlock out before taking such an option. He'd already ruled against Warlock.

Again only achievable with Adams consent. LT had the power to counter a single blast from the IG something even Eternity claimed to be able to do. On top of that in battle with the IG he doesnt know who would win. You have no case. More speculation. Unsupported at that.

Claimed by Eternity yet twice he get stomped. And he never appears in his totality to begin with; no one even considers Eternity's totality because his totality hasn't appeared.

He's the servant of a being beyond the IG and the Eternity. Thats all. LT guards the multiverse the Phoenix power created and sustains. If you wish to make assumptions based merely on LT's role then you must be willing to take other beings into consideration. It works both ways.

Phoenix created what now? Sise-Neg and the Infinity Being did that also.

Nope. I never once said that her role alone makes her an aspect of the supreme being. I said her role alongside the many, many references and parallels drawn on panel made her an aspect of God. While i still believe that as i have support on panel, its not actually stated on panel so with time i learned to accept that its not canon.

Like forever. Thinking back on it...it's been about a year.

While you may wish to believe LT works for Marvels supreme being (which is cool) you must accept that until its stated him working for Marvels supreme being isnt canon. You have nothing but LTs role and a few vague comments stating his master is beyond the IG. You have no case.

Let's put it this way, I'll say what I'll say; you say what you say. No way are you agreeing with me, nor am I agreeing with you.

This is getting pointless; we both know we aren't agreeing with one another. You stick to yours story; I'll stick to mine.

Nebula needing her full power; the deities were preventing her from it.

Im gonna keep this short and sweet Bey because i really cant be bothered with this anymore. We're going around in circles. Nothing is conclusively shown, nothing is stated youre just giving me your opinion over and over again as to why LT is greater than the IG and why he is the supreme beings servant. Opinion when not conclusively verified on panel cannot be treated as canon. You need to learn that.

The scene in Infinity Watch is open to debate as you've seen via this thread. Nothing is conclusively shown or conclusively stated therefore nothing regarding power can be drawn from that source and be treated as fact. You cant conclusively say LT is greater than the power of the IG based on that scene. At the end of the day he never fought Adam for us to have a conclusive answer to our queries. He countered a blast, something the other abstracts couldnt do. That shows hes more powerful than them and thats all.

During the court proceedings Adam finished off LTs sentence saying that LT couldnt determine whether he had the power to stand up against the IG.

That statement wasnt debated. With that in mind plus the fact that they glared at each other the on panel depiction more supports my view that LT as Adam said didnt know how his power would stand up to the IG.

LT has no feats in any of his comic appearances to support your OPINION that he has power greater than the IG. Thats all it comes down to.

You say the fact that his ruling resulted in the gems not being able to work together demonstrates that he has greater power than them but it doesnt. As stated by Adam and agreed by LT the only way he could see his ruling through is via a confrontation with Adam.

Not wanting such a confrontation he persuaded Adam into submitting and Adam not wanting to destroy his reality gave in. That says it all. There was no conclusive statements made or any on panel depiction showing conclusively how LT would stand up to the IG. It was all left up in the air. After Adam submitted the next time someone attempted to use the gems in unison it couldnt be done because of Lts ruling. However LTs ruling as shown was only finalised by Adams submittance. Otherwise as stated there would have been a confrontation. Lts decision in itself didnt dismantle the IG it was something that obviously required an application of power otherwise if he could just dismantle the IG with words why would he agree that a reality destroying confrontation would be necessary to wrest the power of the IG from Adam?

Either way accept that as nothing is stated or shown you cant say that LTs power is beyond that of the IGs.

Yep, it's starting to go in circles.
It was badass, but I'll find it difficult to keep reading much more of this and find it interesting.

😖leep:

Originally posted by leonidas
😖leep:

Well contribute then. Im not here to provide entertainment!! 😛

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
Yep basically

although he is uber powerful, hes not in league with most of MU cosmics, and the fact that he can undoubtibly warp DC universe he has no authority there and so he won't be as powerful as he is in Marvel Universe.

NOT REALLLY

In the crossover Specetre didnt show any weakness in the marvel U. when he split the two earths

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well contribute then. Im not here to provide entertainment!! 😛

but entertaining nonetheless!

😆

ahh, thanks gs: i needed that.

and i WOULD have contributed, but you made your point abundantly clear, and i said already that i agreed with it.

-- i don't think it can be said to be canon that lt works for toaa
-- i don't think it was conclusively shown that lt>ig
-- i think there has been powers displayed in comics that appear to be beyond lt.

oh, and i think you firmly established that strange=lt 😄

only thing that i DID see that was new was SOME association of toaa with lt, which is something i'd NOT seen before, but which is NOT enough evidence to say toaa is beyond all doubt lt's master.

happy? 😛

.

to bad in his other apperences he has been depowered just like the spectre has been upgraded LT did show more power then strange but has recently been shown to been defied by strange Spectre would not have such a problem you know that.

Originally posted by Mider
to bad in his other apperences he has been depowered just like the spectre has been upgraded LT did show more power then strange but has recently been shown to been defied by strange Spectre would not have such a problem you know that.

When did he get defied by Strange?

Darkseid also defied Spectre. What's your point? The same DS that Superman knocks around.