Exar Kun and Ulic versus Sidious and Dooku

1) And you seem to think that this is proof of a stalemate rather than Kun toying with him? Sorry, it's certainly not enough. They trade blows certainly, much like Dooku traded blows with Anakin in AOTC. Prove that they were stalemated, for the final time.

2) There is no evidence that one needs to prepare oneself for death, Lightsnake. Do you think Odan-Urr had a real chance to prepare himself? How about Arca? Certainly Arca had more of a chance than Odan, but not much more. Your point is groundless, there is no evidence to support it. Vodo's blocking in his final act, to try and spare his own life. Prove that Vodo gave up, for the final time.

3) Kun fights three, really. Two, of course, he simply overpowers with a wave of his hand. Sylvar is lucky that Kun only bothered to push her back. It is ridiculous to say that Kun wouldn't be able to over power Ulic during the Sith War, however. Ulic shows no prowess in Sith Magic or any evidence that he's learned a thing about it. Kun, however, has shown massive improvement.

The narrator says that Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use. Not Kun. And read what I wrote, I said he gathered more than Sidious ever could hope to.

Amusing how your assumption that all his power comes from the amulet is the basis of your argument when you have precisely zero evidence indicating such and secondly can't refute that even if it is his amulet (and he has either found or built at least one more by the Sith War) that Kun would still win, because he's not fighting naked.

By the way, Arca was certainly not the Grandmaster of the order. Arca was merely the guardian of Onderon and Thon was little more than a beast sitting around on Ambria with no apprentices, apparently, since Oss Willum. I could be like you and argue that Grandmasters don't sit around on their little green asses on Coruscant wasting time with the temple's younglings.

And please, don't demean Kun's feat by stating he couldn't freeze the Jedi. As he proved to them during the entire sequence, the Jedi could do nothing to stop him. What purpose would freezing them serve? I'd submit that the mob of senators and their armed guards would pose more of a threat to him than a handful of Jedi who are beneath even his ignorant apprentice.

And blasting through the beast and the temple is far more impressive when you consider that Kun requires apparently little energy to do it and the technique requires seemingly no charge time (indeed, he's able to destroy Nadd moments after the beast is slain).

Sidious cannot win this fight. Give it up

1. Kun TOYING with an enemy like Vodo when he's showing exertion with three other Jedi off to the side who just slaughtered his body guards? And he would have no need to play a trump if he could've crushed Vodo as it was

2. Vodo vanishes. We see Yoda prepare for death, we see Obi-wan, we see Arca sure as HELL prepare....he smiles gently at Ulic as says "I know the light." Before dying...we see Odan resign himself sadly...he didn't instantly die. He falls to the ground and whispers he is too old and that evil is loose.

3. Kun and Sylvar never fought. And that little line is from Exar's POV. Sidious had access to....a LOT of the wealth and knowledge of the Ancient Sith AND Jedi orders, perfected and refined the darkest secrets of the Ancient Sith empires....you ginore how exar never had the CHANCE to use any of the info he got, so 'gathered' really doesn't matter.

And Sidious wouldn't fight naked either, so that's everything Sidious has from the Ancients, all their techniques and his powers, which are far more than Kun's ever done...

And if the Jedi decided to mob Exar right there, he was a dead man.

Please, tell me when Vodo showed himself to be grandmaster? Yoda at least directed the order and made decisions on the capital. Ood Bnar stayed on the capital as well....the same Ood Bnar who Palpatine's SERVANT matched

And requires little energy to blast the temple beast? Could that be because of the massive sith gauntlet? And Palpatine requires little effort to curse a family line and subsequently destroy a fleet with no charge time and little effort. And considering all Kun does is PUNCH Nadd and let the amulet do the work...

1) Showing exertion? Is that why he slaps the hell out of him so easily, then? Is that why soon after Kun stopped toying around Vodo knew he was beaten? You submitted no proof that Kun and Vodo were stalemated after several posts. Ergo, I will treat this point as defeated.

By the way, you're caught in another lie.

with three other Jedi off to the side who just slaughtered his body guards? And he would have no need to play a trump if he could've crushed Vodo as it was

And, you posted this lie in a post some time ago:

Kun was also, most people neglect to mention, a terrible coward... For a moment, Kun was fully afraid when he saw Sylvar in a rage.

That's the extent of the Massassi that were killed. Two to a handful at the most. And some expression of fear on Kun's face when he brushes her off and turns his back to the Jedi as he ascends the Chancellor's podium.

This is, of course, not to mention the fact that the narrator states that she's of no consequence to him.

You cannot win a debate by lying, Lightsnake.

2) Let me explain to you in a condescending way, since it seems you're not bright enough to get this.

You. Have. No. Proof. That. Preparation. Is. Necessary.

Ergo, I believe that,

You're. Making. It. Up.

Because,

You. Have. Been. Caught. In. Lies. Before.

Any questions now? A lie repeated often enough does not become true when someone can counter you.

There is no indication in the narration, dialogue, or action, that preparation is necessary. Your point collapses due to lack of proof.

3) Ooh, yet another lie.

Kun and Sylvar never fought.

Like I said, Sylvar is lucky that Kun didn't do what he did to Odan-Urr. And look there! Kun still has Massassi! Why, but I thought they all got WTPWNed by the Jedi! After all, Lightsnake said so, it must be true!

Another lie, unless you think Exar is the narrator...

And that little line is from Exar's POV.

Note that it is not Kun thinks or Kun surmises. The omniscient narrator states that he knows it is more wealth and knowledge, etc. etc.

you ginore how exar never had the CHANCE to use any of the info he got

Actually, the only knowledge he gathered that he didn't get a chance to use is in the above picture. Only the Jedi secrets. He had already had what he gathered from the Sith for some time.

nd Sidious wouldn't fight naked either, so that's everything Sidious has from the Ancients, all their techniques and his powers, which are far more than Kun's ever done...

Prove up. Such as? How is any of it going to save him when Kun, living only one thousand years past the death of the empire and ergo has access to more of their knowledge, blasts him through the chest?

And if the Jedi decided to mob Exar right there, he was a dead man.

Got any proof? I doubt it. The comic indicates otherwise, given that he proved he could toss them around like ragdolls and toy with the most powerful among them.

Please, tell me when Vodo showed himself to be grandmaster? Yoda at least directed the order and made decisions on the capital. Ood Bnar stayed on the capital as well....the same Ood Bnar who Palpatine's SERVANT matched

Ood actually stayed on Ossus and was beaten by Kun (with minor help from a single sneaky Massassi). After getting hit, he declared that combat wasn't his skill (which doesn't really speak well for Palpatine's servant, especially since Ood at that point was rooted to one spot on a dead world alone for four thosand years) and underwent his lifecycle change.

Vodo however, unlike Arca, Thon, and Ood, was actually doing something of importance; like training the most powerful Force user of the time. Vodo was known for his combat skills (I'd like to see Thon swing a saber, not having hands or opposable digits would be a problem. The Jedi was a quadroped for God's sake). Really, only Odan-Urr could be said to be the Grandmaster over Vodo because of his age. And that wouldn't speak well for your position either, given that Kun destroys him with a wave of his hand.

And requires little energy to blast the temple beast?

I suggest you take a look at the comic. Kun does it repeatedly and afterwards destroys Nadd; it obviously requires no recharge time and minimal effort from Kun himself.

For the last time, though, Kun is not fighting naked. As well, for the last time, you cannot prove that the majority or even very much of his power came from said amulet.

Exar and Ulic win. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious or Dooku.

Please, Lightsnake...do not say sidious could possibly posses the knowledge and artifacts that exar kun had, why? its 4000-5000 years since then, unless you're saying every little holocron, every small amount of knowledge was not touched nor looted nor lost nor destroyed....the chances of that happening? below 0, you're a fanboy...you want luke to be the supreme force user of all time and sidious to be the supreme sith...its pure fanboyism...so stfu, btw exar didn't need to demonstrate such feats as sidious did, he pretty much conquered the galaxy, until ulic gave him up....oh btw yoda > sidious ( long fight) vodo = yoda (assumed, around same age, same amount of training) exar kun toyed with vodo....kun > vodo ( short fight ) proves you wrong, as well there are more sources on sidious, if you base it upon feats then you're hell stupid...so you're saying if i could destroy a imperial star fleet with lightning taking ages to prepare i can beat a sith who froze the entire senate, rescued his apprentice, slayed his former master and go out without a scratch? fanboys should be banned!

Originally posted by IKC
1) Showing exertion? Is that why he slaps the hell out of him so easily, then? Is that why soon after Kun stopped toying around Vodo knew he was beaten? You submitted no proof that Kun and Vodo were stalemated after several posts. Ergo, I will treat this point as defeated.

By the way, you're caught in another lie.

And, you posted this lie in a post some time ago:

That's the extent of the Massassi that were killed. Two to a handful at the most. And some expression of fear on Kun's face when he brushes her off and turns his back to the Jedi as he ascends the Chancellor's podium.

This is, of course, not to mention the fact that the narrator states that she's of no consequence to him.

You cannot win a debate by lying, Lightsnake.

2) Let me explain to you in a condescending way, since it seems you're not bright enough to get this.

You. Have. No. Proof. That. Preparation. Is. Necessary.

Ergo, I believe that,

You're. Making. It. Up.

Because,

You. Have. Been. Caught. In. Lies. Before.

Any questions now? A lie repeated often enough does not become true when someone can counter you.

There is no indication in the narration, dialogue, or action, that preparation is necessary. Your point collapses due to lack of proof.

3) Ooh, yet another lie.

Like I said, Sylvar is lucky that Kun didn't do what he did to Odan-Urr. And look there! Kun still has Massassi! Why, but I thought they all got WTPWNed by the Jedi! After all, Lightsnake said so, it must be true!

Another lie, unless you think Exar is the narrator...

Note that it is not Kun thinks or Kun surmises. The omniscient narrator states that he knows it is more wealth and knowledge, etc. etc.

Actually, the only knowledge he gathered that he didn't get a chance to use is in the above picture. Only the Jedi secrets. He had already had what he gathered from the Sith for some time.

Prove up. Such as? How is any of it going to save him when Kun, living only one thousand years past the death of the empire and ergo has access to more of their knowledge, blasts him through the chest?

Got any proof? I doubt it. The comic indicates otherwise, given that he proved he could toss them around like ragdolls and toy with the most powerful among them.

Ood actually stayed on Ossus and was beaten by Kun (with minor help from a single sneaky Massassi). After getting hit, he declared that combat wasn't his skill (which doesn't really speak well for Palpatine's servant, especially since Ood at that point was rooted to one spot on a dead world alone for four thosand years) and underwent his lifecycle change.

Vodo however, unlike Arca, Thon, and Ood, was actually doing something of importance; like training the most powerful Force user of the time. Vodo was known for his combat skills (I'd like to see Thon swing a saber, not having hands or opposable digits would be a problem. The Jedi was a quadroped for God's sake). Really, only Odan-Urr could be said to be the Grandmaster over Vodo because of his age. And that wouldn't speak well for your position either, given that Kun destroys him with a wave of his hand.

I suggest you take a look at the comic. Kun does it repeatedly and afterwards destroys Nadd; it obviously requires no recharge time and minimal effort from Kun himself.

For the last time, though, Kun is not fighting naked. As well, for the last time, you cannot prove that the majority or even very much of his power came from said amulet.

Exar and Ulic win. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious or Dooku.

1. *Yawn* Here we go again: Kun never claims an advantage before he goes double blade AND IS SHOWN LOCKING VOOD WITH TEETH GRITTED.

2. Explain Yoda, Daeshra'Cor, Obi-wan, Arca, Oooroo...EVERY Jedi who has ever vanished has prepared for death. The NEC backs this up: Vanishing into the light was a technique only only to a true master, and it's later said Anakin Skywalker did the same, preparing to move into the light.

3. Sylvar still butchered Kun's gloriopus Massassi with her BARE HANDS, Exar has a twinge of fear, realizes she can't hurt him...of course if she teamed up with the other three Jedi there, Kun'd be screwed...and considering we see Sylovar slaughtering Massassi fully later on....Kun would do what exactly if Vodo, Cay, Nomi AND Sylvar who'd just shwon herself capable of killing Massassi barehanded teamed up now? Iw as wrong about all the Massassi dying, doesn't change the fact they didn't hold a candle to one of the Jedi there

4. Yeah, what'd he have from the Sith? a single holocron he shattered and never used? A bit of searching on Korriban? He never used a scrap of what he found on Ossus.

5. Dark Side sorucebook. Palpatine learned the darkest secrets of the old Empire...when the spirits never taught Kun ANYTHING, unlocked the secrets of the Force from captured holocrons, absorbed the power of a Sith holocron, had access to Vodo Baas's holocron....Whereas Kun onlylived because he was locked in Yavin, going insane...yep, REAL victory surviving there...now, I would hardly call Sylvar any sort of the strongest Jedi...And is exar could do what Sidious did, he wouldn't have run.

6. Force energy equals lightsaber combat? Ood was still a foremsopt master of the order and was only on Ossu right then and there as he'd been on Coruscant before. Ood's force ability neevr decreased especially as he was fighting Sedriss by drawing power up from Ossus itself. And oh, please....when was Vodo reknowned for combat? Arca did far more than we've seen Vodo do and was training three powerful students. Vodo had two powerful students and Crado. And we saw Thon tear the throat out of a hssiss and say himself he hates killing.

7. Good for Kun. Now, what does he EVER do of power before he gets the gauntlets? How's he going to stand against a Sith Lord who unlike Kun didn't need a massive ritual to free his spirit, has trained with and by the spirits of the Ancients and learned their dark secrets, can destroy fleets effortlessly, curse family lines, enter the ritual seen in Sithisis...wait, will Kun's ponytail save him? Will he manage to blow Palpatine from sucking his life out? Will he block the force lightning capable of destroying over fifty men?What's more impressive now....destroying a temple's walls....or destroying a fleet?

1) Ah yes, because locking with someone is definitive proof of a stalemate, correct? I guess Dooku was stalemated against Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC for a good while, then. Thanks for clearing that up. Again, this point is long-defeated because you offer no proof.

2) Again, you have no proof that preparation is necessary. PROVE UP. That plus you cannot argue with scans: Vodo's last act is an attempt to block Kun's swing. You have no proof that Vodo gave up, you're simply making things up: par for the course when debating with you.

What you're claiming is that because these other Jedi managed to eke out a few words then that means they were, somehow, despite the fact that no indication is given in the narration or otherwise in the story, preparing to turn into ghosts. I guess Padme was doing the same because she managed to speak a few words before she died, then?

Have you even heard of Occam's razor?

3) Correction: Sylvar killed two Massassi because she repeatedly gives into the Dark Side by getting angry.

Exar has a twinge of fear

YOU. ARE. MAKING. THIS. UP.

If you want to continue debating with me (or anyone else for that matter), stop lying. You cannot get away with it because the scans are right there. Kun frowns and the narrator says she's of no consequence to him. That means he does not fear her, period.

Kun would do what exactly if Vodo, Cay, Nomi AND Sylvar who'd just shwon herself capable of killing Massassi barehanded teamed up now?

He'd kill all of them. Replace them with the PT Jedi council and the result would be the same. I suggest you look at the scans again; Kun instakills Odan-Urr, who is far above everyone in that group except Vodo, toys with and slaughters Vodo himself, and tosses Sylvar around like a ragdoll and makes her cry! He's completely out of their league.

4) Wow, now you're absolutely delusional. What in God's name do you think he recovered from Nadd's tomb then? Do you think children's bedtime stories were written on those scrolls? How about the trove of knowledge and equipment Kun recovered from what Naga Sadow left behind, information that wasn't available to anyone because that giant beast was guarding it? Indeed, it's probable that Kun learned more of Sadow's workings than anyone else other than Sadow himself.

5) Ooh, the "darkest secrets." Nevermind that Kun had Sadow's private notes, knowledge recovered from Nadd's tomb, knowledge recovered from Korriban, etc etc. That plus the man was practically baptized by Ragnos himself.

But we're getting off topic: None of that will save Sidious when Kun blasts a giant hole in his chest.

6) Seems I've caught you in another lie. So Ood just showed up on Ossus to get pwned by Kun, right? Is that why I have this scan from Dark Lords of the Sith?

Seems to me that Ood was a keeper of knowledge at best. Interestingly enough, the only Jedi master we see on Coruscant in the entire series is - guess who? - the Grandmaster himself, VODO.

I mean, he's speaking with the Chancellor himself as well. Seems you're proven wrong.

Arca did far more than we've seen Vodo do

And Arca got pwned by a droid when he was lecturing Ulic on being aware of surprise attacks. And you actually think Cay Qel-Droma was powerful? Please. I'll take Crado over him.

And we saw Thon tear the throat out of a hssiss and say himself he hates killing.

Indeed, he had to do that because he's a freaking quadroped. Oh, by the way, we don't know that those creatures are hssiss. They go unnamed in the narration and dialogue. That being said, what's your point?

7) Kun didn't do much before he got Sadow's gauntlet (singular) but that has more to do with the fact that he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side than anything else. He finally accepts the Dark Side as soon as the amulet clamps on to his hand.

How's he going to stand against a Sith Lord who unlike Kun didn't need a massive ritual to free his spirit

Kun's ritual would have let him roam freely throughout the cosmos. This is in contrast to Sidious who was stuck on the rather long journey from Endor to Byss. It failed because all the Jedi in the galaxy happened to be in orbit above Yavin 4 attacking him with the Light side.

Again, how is any of that going to save Sidious when Kun replaces his chest with a fine red mist, or slices his head off easily with his saber, or simply instakills him as he did Odan-Urr?

Answer? It won't. Lying fanboys will not save Sidious.

Da-amn.

QED.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, he does, as they are wiped out during his reign.

BTW, Ragnos had no part in the Sith dying out. Oh, and Ulic, a guy who could fully contend with Exar, feared Ragnos even when Ragnos was just a spirit.

There could be many reasons for that. For example, Exar and Ulic coulden't possibly know what powers he had gained as a spirit. Even if he didn't get any they would not know, and since he was a spirit they coulden't kill him.
Woulden't you be scared if you saw a ghost, woulden't you wonder what he could do to you?

But that's just what I think.

Neither of them feared the spirit. They just stopped fighting each other, got inducted and branded, and joined forces.

Originally posted by IKC
1) Ah yes, because locking with someone is definitive proof of a stalemate, correct? I guess Dooku was stalemated against Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC for a good while, then. Thanks for clearing that up. Again, this point is long-defeated because you offer no proof.

2) Again, you have no proof that preparation is necessary. PROVE UP. That plus you cannot argue with scans: Vodo's last act is an attempt to block Kun's swing. You have no proof that Vodo gave up, you're simply making things up: par for the course when debating with you.

What you're claiming is that because these other Jedi managed to eke out a few words then that means they were, somehow, despite the fact that no indication is given in the narration or otherwise in the story, preparing to turn into ghosts. I guess Padme was doing the same because she managed to speak a few words before she died, then?

Have you even heard of Occam's razor?

3) Correction: Sylvar killed two Massassi because she repeatedly gives into the Dark Side by getting angry.

[B]YOU. ARE. MAKING. THIS. UP.

If you want to continue debating with me (or anyone else for that matter), stop lying. You cannot get away with it because the scans are right there. Kun frowns and the narrator says she's of no consequence to him. That means he does not fear her, period.

He'd kill all of them. Replace them with the PT Jedi council and the result would be the same. I suggest you look at the scans again; Kun instakills Odan-Urr, who is far above everyone in that group except Vodo, toys with and slaughters Vodo himself, and tosses Sylvar around like a ragdoll and makes her cry! He's completely out of their league.

4) Wow, now you're absolutely delusional. What in God's name do you think he recovered from Nadd's tomb then? Do you think children's bedtime stories were written on those scrolls? How about the trove of knowledge and equipment Kun recovered from what Naga Sadow left behind, information that wasn't available to anyone because that giant beast was guarding it? Indeed, it's probable that Kun learned more of Sadow's workings than anyone else other than Sadow himself.

5) Ooh, the "darkest secrets." Nevermind that Kun had Sadow's private notes, knowledge recovered from Nadd's tomb, knowledge recovered from Korriban, etc etc. That plus the man was practically baptized by Ragnos himself.

But we're getting off topic: None of that will save Sidious when Kun blasts a giant hole in his chest.

6) Seems I've caught you in another lie. So Ood just showed up on Ossus to get pwned by Kun, right? Is that why I have this scan from Dark Lords of the Sith?

Seems to me that Ood was a keeper of knowledge at best. Interestingly enough, the only Jedi master we see on Coruscant in the entire series is - guess who? - the Grandmaster himself, VODO.

[UscaRL=http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vodocorunt6hy.jpg][/URL]

I mean, he's speaking with the Chancellor himself as well. Seems you're proven wrong.

And Arca got pwned by a droid when he was lecturing Ulic on being aware of surprise attacks. And you actually think Cay Qel-Droma was powerful? Please. I'll take Crado over him.

Indeed, he had to do that because he's a freaking quadroped. Oh, by the way, we don't know that those creatures are hssiss. They go unnamed in the narration and dialogue. That being said, what's your point?

7) Kun didn't do much before he got Sadow's gauntlet (singular) but that has more to do with the fact that he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side than anything else. He finally accepts the Dark Side as soon as the amulet clamps on to his hand.

Kun's ritual would have let him roam freely throughout the cosmos. This is in contrast to Sidious who was stuck on the rather long journey from Endor to Byss. It failed because all the Jedi in the galaxy happened to be in orbit above Yavin 4 attacking him with the Light side.

Again, how is any of that going to save Sidious when Kun replaces his chest with a fine red mist, or slices his head off easily with his saber, or simply instakills him as he did Odan-Urr?

Answer? It won't. Lying fanboys will not save Sidious. [/B]

1. Explain why Kun found it necessary to ignite his blade and there is a clear look of exertion on his face. When you pull out a trump card after a saber lock? Yeah, you've been stalemating them up to that point. And you call ME a fanboy....what's next, can Kun's ponytail turn back time?

2. Well, Padme wasn't a Jedi was she? And EVERY OTHER JEDI prepared for Death. This's directly stated in te NEC to be a true tecnique known only to true Jedi masters to join with the Force and vanish into it. We see Obi-wan close his eyes and raise his blade, Yoda says he'll die soon himself, Vodo tells Exar it's not the end when he clearly knows he's going to die, Arca smiles and tells Ulic he knows the light.....Oh, how about Empajytos Brand or Jen Ysana?

3. Could making Sylvar cry have anything to do with ENSLAVING HER HUSBAND AND KILLING HER MASTER? Toys with Vodo? Proof now. When was Odan-Urr reknowned for his combat skill? His main skill was battle med and nonviolent techniques. And Ood managed to clash sabers with Kun before he got blindsided...that's ALREADY more impressive than Vodo who was injured in one swing. And what lie? I said Ood was there at that point. Unless Ood says: "I have always been on Ossus, always on Ossus, I have never left Ossus and never will." Especially as he was probably older than Odann, his homeworld was Ryykk... And Kun'd kill them all? And you call ME a fanboy....Yoda, Mace Windu, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin....all rushing Kun at once? Please.

4. He brought a small contingent of knights to the planet. That's....well, that's it really...where's the grand temple where Odan and Ood stayed at? It isn't there? I want DIRECT PROOF Vodo was order grandmaster now, let's see what wookiepedia has to say...

Behind the scenes

* Some fans have come under the belief that Vodo was the Grand Master of the Jedi Order at the time of his death, but there is no canonical source for this.

5. Ahh, here we go....Cay weak? Please. He was of a gifted Qel-Droma line and managed to stand against Ulic for a time.

6. Ahhh, belittling of the old Jedi...Arca also managed to help cleanse the dark side presence from Ossus and Thon confined a dark side prescence....and Hssiss are large, aquatic dark side creatures, look like the big ones in the lake...Was Ooroo weak too? He was only a Cephalapoid. And Thon managed to chase off pirates and kill a dark side creature.....two on Vodo already!

7. Yeah, shame Kun screwed that ritual up, hm? Why didn't he try to fight rather than use a ritual he didn't fully understand? And Palpatine instantly possessed Jeng Droga after JEng's attempted suicide before heading back to Byss. The Jedi lightside attack on Kun didn't start until he began his ritual

8. Considering he'll simply dodge/reflect/block....And insta kill? How'll that happen when Luke is able to block Sith attacks designed to kill an opponent instantly that Palpatine already learned? What'll Kun do when Palpatine chars him to a crisp, or tears him apart with a force storm? How'll Kun stop the guy who learned far more than he ever did? Who trained with the Ancient Sith spirits, absorbed a Sith holocron, proved himself capable of sucking the life from millions and destroying fleets, surviving beyond death without a ritual...What did Kun know from the Ancients now? Did he learn with Marka and the like on Korriban? Was he INVITED to join them? Thought not. Please now, we're calling ME a fanboy?

First Lightsnake, I thought we already talked about Agen, Saesee and Kit on MSN. My recollection of this was that you agreed that they were not that good.

Also, about Sidious, again we talked about this on MSN, and here is a direct quote from what you said (I am the one going by the name of 'Bryton'😉:

Bryton says:
So if he could not have learned it all, and had less time to practise, then how can he win?

For a pittance, I banned all kindness from my heart...-Marou Delac says:
Got me, but he did

You yourself have said that you did not know how Sidious could have learned everything. And sure we were talking about Marka, but the point that Sidious did not know everything still applies here.

About becoming one with the force, again we talked about this on MSN, and I will use the same example here. Qui-Gon. He did not focuses before he died, infact he did not even know of the move. He rediscovered it, another example of the jedi loosing knowledge. And if the jedi lost knowledge, why would the sith not. They had there entire empire torn apart, yet they did not loose knowledge?

1) Uh huh... as there was clear exertion on Dooku's part to lock with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC. Again: were they stalemated or not? Is Mace Windu stalemated with Jango Fett when he grimaces while blocking Fett's shots? For the final time, you have no proof that it was a stalemate. You're making it up.

2) Of course she wasn't, but by your standards she was mysteriously "preparing for death" because she knew she was dying, etc etc.

This is called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. You have no proof that such a technique (which nobody knew existed until the PT movies, well after TOTJ was written) requires preparation, and your very premise (that Vodo gave up) is fallacious. You lose this point.

3) Actually, Crado idolized Exar Kun until his death. It wasn't slavery at all; Crado apparently believed Kun could do no wrong. And cute how you skirted the real point: Kun tossed Sylvar around like the comparative weakling she was. Ergo, she couldn't possibly stand up to him.

Proof that he toyed with Vodo is in the above scans.

Look at these scans, by the way, and tell me how Odan-Urr isn't experienced in combat.

Yes, Ood managed to clash sabers with Kun for one whole panel before getting slapped by a Massassi and then declaring that "Combat is not my skill, Exar Kun..." My word, he's practically a sabergod!

And got any evidence that Ood is older than Odan? Odan is at least a thousand years old by the time of the Sith War.

The point is, no other Jedi Masters are shown on Coruscant throughout the entire series, except for Vodo. Vodo, who put up the best fight against Exar Kun out of all of them. Vodo, who didn't get pwned by a droid while lecturing his student about surprise attacks. Vodo, who is good friends with the chancellor of the Republic. Vodo, who has such confidence in himself and the Light Side that he confronts with the intent to stop the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a staff.

And yes, Kun would kill them all. Here you go.

That was, of course, before I pointed out that he could shoot massive blasts from his hands.

4) Such a great temple probably didn't exist since Ossus was at the time the Jedi world. You know, where Ood sat on his ass and gave Ulic Qel-Droma a book. At least Odan was actually teaching still, and presided over the Jedi congregation on Deneba.

5) Ooh yes, he sure stood up to Ulic. What a great job he did, getting his arm lopped off and soon after getting killed. Cay and Crado were spineless worms, but at least Crado got something accomplished.

6) What dark side presence was this, given that Ossus was founded as the Jedi world 800 years before Arca was even born? Unless you mean Onderon, and even if you did you'd still be wrong. Nadd's spirit, according to the narration, "has managed to confound the great old Jedi. On Onderon, under Arca's very nose, Nadd has instructed two young aristocrats, Satal Keto and Aleema..."

Boy, that Arca was competant.

And Thon only managed to contain the unnamed dark side creatures to a lake until, according to the omniscient narrator, "they are released by a new power." Under Thon's nose, the Sith-possessed Oss Willum released the beasts to attack Thon, Sylvar, Nomi, and Vima. It wasn't a well thought-out plan, but it certainly doesn't make Thon the grandmaster because he defeated a few beasts with the help of the rage-prone Sylvar and the battle meditation prodigy Nomi.

7) Prove that it was his mistake and not the Jedi attack. You can't, because no such proof exists. Oh, and do you really want to know why he didn't try to fight?

Only because all the Jedi in the galaxy showed up above his place. And the attack occured in the panel directly after this one.

Ergo, the "wall" of light is more likely the reason for Kun's imprisonment than any mistake on Kun's part, of which there is no evidence in the comic.

8) Yeah, Sidious is going to be dodging and reflecting these...

And he's somehow going to be able to overcome an attack from one of the greatest lightsaber wielders of all time when Mace Windu put him on his ass and later Luke Skywalker could disarm him. Oh sure.

And he'll be able to mysteriously block an instakill attack that Odan-Urr, a thousand year old Jedi that participated in making the Ancient Sith extinct, couldn't resist.

Good to know you have your mind made up. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Originally posted by IKC
1) Uh huh... as there was clear exertion on Dooku's part to lock with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC. Again: were they stalemated or not? Is Mace Windu stalemated with Jango Fett when he grimaces while blocking Fett's shots? For the final time, you have no proof that it was a stalemate. You're making it up.

2) Of course she wasn't, but by your standards she was mysteriously "preparing for death" because she knew she was dying, etc etc.

This is called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. You have no proof that such a technique (which nobody knew existed until the PT movies, well after TOTJ was written) requires preparation, and your very premise (that Vodo gave up) is fallacious. You lose this point.

3) Actually, Crado idolized Exar Kun until his death. It wasn't slavery at all; Crado apparently believed Kun could do no wrong. And cute how you skirted the real point: Kun tossed Sylvar around like the comparative weakling she was. Ergo, she couldn't possibly stand up to him.

Proof that he toyed with Vodo is in the above scans.

Look at these scans, by the way, and tell me how Odan-Urr isn't experienced in combat.

Yes, Ood managed to clash sabers with Kun for one whole panel before getting slapped by a Massassi and then declaring that "Combat is not my skill, Exar Kun..." My word, he's practically a sabergod!

And got any evidence that Ood is older than Odan? Odan is at least a thousand years old by the time of the Sith War.

The point is, no other Jedi Masters are shown on Coruscant throughout the entire series, except for Vodo. Vodo, who put up the best fight against Exar Kun out of all of them. Vodo, who didn't get pwned by a droid while lecturing his student about surprise attacks. Vodo, who is good friends with the chancellor of the Republic. Vodo, who has such confidence in himself and the Light Side that he confronts with the intent to stop the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a staff.

And yes, Kun would kill them all. Here you go.

That was, of course, before I pointed out that he could shoot massive blasts from his hands.

4) Such a great temple probably didn't exist since Ossus was at the time the Jedi world. You know, where Ood sat on his ass and gave Ulic Qel-Droma a book. At least Odan was actually teaching still, and presided over the Jedi congregation on Deneba.

5) Ooh yes, he sure stood up to Ulic. What a great job he did, getting his arm lopped off and soon after getting killed. Cay and Crado were spineless worms, but at least Crado got something accomplished.

6) What dark side presence was this, given that Ossus was founded as the Jedi world 800 years before Arca was even born? Unless you mean Onderon, and even if you did you'd still be wrong. Nadd's spirit, according to the narration, "has managed to confound the great old Jedi. On Onderon, under Arca's very nose, Nadd has instructed two young aristocrats, Satal Keto and Aleema..."

Boy, that Arca was competant.

And Thon only managed to contain the unnamed dark side creatures to a lake until, according to the omniscient narrator, "they are released by a new power." Under Thon's nose, the Sith-possessed Oss Willum released the beasts to attack Thon, Sylvar, Nomi, and Vima. It wasn't a well thought-out plan, but it certainly doesn't make Thon the grandmaster because he defeated a few beasts with the help of the rage-prone Sylvar and the battle meditation prodigy Nomi.

7) Prove that it was his mistake and not the Jedi attack. You can't, because no such proof exists. Oh, and do you really want to know why he didn't try to fight?

Only because all the Jedi in the galaxy showed up above his place. And the attack occured in the panel directly after this one.

Ergo, the "wall" of light is more likely the reason for Kun's imprisonment than any mistake on Kun's part, of which there is no evidence in the comic.

8) Yeah, Sidious is going to be dodging and reflecting these...

And he's somehow going to be able to overcome an attack from one of the greatest lightsaber wielders of all time when Mace Windu put him on his ass and later Luke Skywalker could disarm him. Oh sure.

And he'll be able to mysteriously block an instakill attack that Odan-Urr, a thousand year old Jedi that participated in making the Ancient Sith extinct, couldn't resist.

Good to know you have your mind made up. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

1. *Yawn* Explain the clear look of exertion on Kun's face on two panels of a deadlock before he pulls out his trump card. yOur turn for proof, buddy boy.

2. Yeah, yeah, yeah....see, it's called 'after the fact.' Lucas decided something, it happened. Nomi herself said in redemption only a true Jedi master could do it. Name one time a Jedi did it without preparing themself for death. And explain Vodo's final words.

3. OH, gee a FORCE PUSH proves how weak someone is, especially when you force push a berserker. Now look who skirted a point? Could sylvar be crying over what she believes is her beloved enslaved and her master dead? Why, no, of course not!

5. Oh, wow! ODan-Urr talking about a nonviolent force technique that I just said he was proficient in! That equates to combat or offensive ability....how?

6. Proof Vodo was grand master. Of COURSe he'd know Kun best: He trained him. And wow, Kun fought....two people? One of whom was ancient and on the brink of death as it was, one of who knew the real fight would be fought later on and one of whom who he didn't even fight personally, GREAT record! And Ood blocked Kun's double sided blade...that's a better record than Vodo already. Arca cleansed Onderon, Arca wiped out the Lorell raiders...Arca fought in the Droid Rebellion, among others....he's a few up on Vodo already who showed NO judgement with Kun and screwed up on every conceivable level. And considering Coruscant wasn't the seat of the Jedi government then...and ignoring how Cay wasn't trying to truly fight Ulic...

7. Would that be before or after Arca was occupied with King Ommin and the small uprising of Naddists, now?

8. One Hsiss and a pirate attack and Thon's got more skill to his name than Vodo ever showed.

9. NOW who's the liar? That panel of the Jedi sending teir powers to Yavin is RIGHT after Kun screams his spirit will live forever

10. Quote: If I fail you will be a last surprise for them. but perhaps I won't fail. The Sith secrets opens doorways I don't necessarily understand etc etc etc." I'd say combination of the wall of light and his ineptitude.

11. Prove Sidious can't now. He's shown he's extremely fast before, much smarter than Kun...proof Kun was 'one of the greatest saber wielders of all time?' Gee, such a pity being bested by Mace Windu, described as one of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi ever to live AND Luke "most powerful Jedi ever being joined with Leia and unborn Anakin" Skywalker. And considering Luke learned from sidious and the holocron how to block instant kills, and force chokes, not to mention Odann was ancient and near death as was...and Sidious has used force powers to far greater levels than Kun ever showed, has gotten far better teachings and artifacts...

And Darkstar: I admitted I didn't know HOW he did it...they doesn't change the fact he did.

Kun fanboys....at least Sidious has evidence for his power

1) Don't skirt the questions. Was Dooku stalemated against either Anakin or Obi-Wan in AOTC because he shows clear exertion? Was Mace stalemated against Jango because he grimaces, thereby showing exertion?

Answer to both? Hell no. A grimace is not proof of a stalemate.

QED.

2) You're skirting the issue yet again. I'm going to answer condescendingly, again.

You. Cannot. Prove. That. Preparation. Is. Required.

Ergo, yet again, I believe you're simply making it up because evidence is clearly against you.

This is, again, beside the point. Prove that Vodo gave up or don't answer this point.

3) Yes, a force push does prove how weak someone is when said force user is not surprised and sent careening across a room. Note also how Kun did it so casually, immediately after slaying Vodo. She's an ant to him.

4) I question your literacy. He is speaking not only of the technique but the fact that he became proficient in it in the war against the Ancient Sith. Ergo, Odan-Urr has much combat experience and is not the pushover you'd like him to be because it suits your cause.

You'll note also it was the same "nonviolent" technique that he tried and failed, despite being a master of the power, to use against Exar Kun.

5) Odan-Urr was ancient, but you're making things up by saying he was "on the brink of death." Were he on the brink of death, the dialogue and narration would have indicated such. Indeed, the only thing that would indicate it is Exar Kun's later line to his converts, "He was ancient, and it was his time." Of course, the line was a lie, as was much of what he told them on Ossus.

And Ood blocked Kun's double sided blade...that's a better record than Vodo already.

Are you visually impaired?

What in God's name are those, then? You have a strange understanding of physics if you think Kun can strike with both ends of a saber at the same time.

Arca cleansed Onderon, Arca wiped out the Lorell raiders...Arca fought in the Droid Rebellion, among others....he's a few up on Vodo already who showed NO judgement with Kun and screwed up on every conceivable level.

Uh huh... and we assume that Vodo had no participation in these events despite the fact that Vodo is 400 years older than Arca, then? Oh, and what terrific judgement was Arca showing here?

Wow. Being an obstinate jerk sure worked to quell his curiosity. Good job, Arca! What tremendous judgement, you averted disaster there!

A few up on Vodo, hm? At least Vodo was slain by somone far above his league in terms of power. Arca gets ironically pwned by a droid because he, like an idiot, stops in the middle of a battle to lecture Ulic. Good job, Arca!

And Nadd survived the destruction of his Naddist cultists and Ommin and roamed freely on Onderon as is evidenced when he visits Ulic while Ulic is examining his artifacts. Ergo, Arca didn't cleanse Onderon.

Oh, so Thon kills a beast (one which he outweighs and is bigger than) with the help of Nomi Sunrider and Sylvar and this makes him greater than Vodo? Let's see about this: Thon trained Nomi and Oss Willum... wow, what great warriors. Vodo trained Exar Kun and Sylvar. I'd say Vodo has a better track record when it comes to producing those kinds of results.

This is, of course, not to mention that Vodo fought in the battle Ulic launched on Coruscant and was there to capture him. I'd say Mandalorians and Tetan warriors are harder to fight off than pirates.

7) Uh, show me where the lie is, exactly? This is exactly as I stated it: Kun says his spirit will live forever, and then the Jedi attack.

8) Good job not providing context for the quote. He speaks to the hulking Massassi and then apparently changes his mind and has all of the Massassi gather at the temple for him to unleash his spirit. You have no evidence that he messed up the ritual, ergo it's more likely that the wall of Light is what caused his isolation.

9) Extremely fast, hm? Is he fast enough to dodge those massive beams that Kun can shoot repeatedly with no warmup or recharge time? I think not. Is he good enough to block an instakill attack that a thousand-year-old Jedi Master (who is not on the brink of death, but you'd like him to be) who fought against the ancient Sith couldn't avoid?

And yes, Sidious was bested by Windu. And? I submit Kun would put Windu on his ass, especially since he too uses a unique style that was not passed on to anyone else. Windu would be completely unprepared for it.

And Sidious getting bested by DE Luke isn't something to be proud of. You realize this is still Luke "I treat my lightsaber like a baseball bat" Skywalker, right? Have you watched Return of the Jedi recently? Wow, what a sabergod Sidious is, getting bested by a boy with barely ten years under his belt.

much smarter than Kun

Got any proof for this? I hardly think IQ is mentioned in the narration.

And considering Luke learned from sidious and the holocron how to block instant kills, and force chokes,

Yeah, alright. I'm sure they, in the actual story, refer to techniques as "instant kills." Proof?

By the way, initiates were taught in the old Jedi order how to resist another Jedi's telekinesis. Big accomplishment for Luke there, learning it after ten or so years.

not to mention Odann was ancient and near death as was.

You have no proof for this, I point out again.

and Sidious has used force powers to far greater levels than Kun ever showed, has gotten far better teachings and artifacts...

Oh really? And where did he find all these artifacts 5000 years after the Empire collapsed? You seem to forget that Kun acquired at least three troves of information in the form of a relatively-unplundered Korriban, Nadd's tomb, and Sadow's stronghold.

Got any proof that Sidious' powers were greater than Kun's, by the way? Kun seems to use them with far greater ease, greater rapidity, and with greater effectiveness. Say what you will, but Kun wasn't benchpressed into a reactor core by a one-armed cyborg or ripped apart by his own force techniques.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

First of all, put the fangs away. You're acting like nothing but a belligerant jerk and it's getting annoying.

1. Did Dooku have to pull out a second lightsaber and was he locked with them before doing so, showing clear exertion DURING and not after the fight?

2. Prove it;s not now. Evidence? On my side. and it's called a 'technique.' And Qu Rahn says he prepared for death to return.

3. Great, he defeated Vodo who'd never shown himself to be any great fighter, that's great. Your little 'Grandmaster' rumor was debunked, so what does Vodo have to his name? Complete incompetence and nothing but losses. And please, was Sedriss weak? He was force pushed. Was Obi-wan weak? He was force pushed.

4. Wow! We only saw Odann do NOTHING in the Hyperspace war but fail with battle meditation and never use his saber once! Name one time he did it in the war against the Ancient Sith! In the moments he was completely USELESS in the entire war!

5. Read The Tales of the JEdi Companion.

6. Wow, Exar never comes close to overpowering Vodo till he uses that double bladed saber!

7. You mean tell him you won't help him as opposed to the guy who's known him since....what, birth? And yep, arca was stupid there....great lot the OJO's turning out to be thus far.

8. And Thon tore the Hsiss's throat out with no aid, Nomi and Sylvar were busy. And considering Nomi was hailed as one of the greatest Jedi of her time...not to mention Nomi and Vodo got Ulic together, and considering Nomi's already shown she was capable of blocking Ulic on her own..

9. And his decision of "If I fail etc etc." He didn't 'change his mind' he decided to use that already.

10. OR you can just kill Kun by sucking out his life, lightning him into next week or simply match him with one of your artifacts. And name one Ancient Sith Lord Odann ever engaged in combat. Name....ANY Sith Odann engaged in combat.

11. Windu aLSO used a unique style...and Kun, survey says uses....Makashi. Ok then.

12. You mean the boy who'd already shown himself to display more power than most JEdi of....ANY era? Created a massive fleet of an illusion? Check. Rebuilds a castle from the Force? Check. Eases the landing of a star destroyer? Only the force? Check. Crushes an AT AT's head with the force? Check. Finds relics dating back to the founding of the Jedi order? Check. And Oh, lord, how dare Luke without CGI!

13. Sidious: Took over Republic, destroyed Jedi Order
Kun: tricked by Padawans.

14. "It's an ancient Sith technique designed to kill an opponent instantly. The holocron showed me how to block it."
This, along with blocking sedriss and Goir's force choke earlier. Telekenisis is a bit different from force choke, too.

15. Artifacts hunted down religiously, taken from the Jedi temple, from traders who had no idesa what they had, from the deepest recesses of Korriban, learned from the Ancients themselves...

And please, Kun didn't spend any more than a few hours in Nadd's tomb, who had nothing that wasn't on Yavin, and on Korriban? What'd he get there exactly?

No, Kun was only trapped by a pack of Padawans and double crossed by Ulic who he decided would be a GRAND idea to lead the army after numerous mess ups.

Unlike Kun, Sidious never requires an artifact to enhance his power or do anything. When he does something he does it and never shows exertion. Drains millions of people? force lightnings enough to kill over fifty people and never sweat? Destroy a fleet? Servant able to match Ood Bnar drawing up massive energy from Ossus?

Kun's....destroyed a temple wall.

Whine all you want about fanboyism, but your Kun worship doesn't give you much credibility

Ah yes, pointing out the fact that you're a frequent liar and Sidious fanboy makes me a belligerant jerk. Lightsnake: it isn't slander if it's true.

1) Prove. Up. Dooku showed exertion during the fight. As did Mace when blocking Jango's shots. Answer the questions: Were they stalemated or not?

I'll just repost:

Answer to both? Hell no. A grimace is not proof of a stalemate.

QED.

2) Prove it's not? Great debating skills, Lightsnake! Ask your opponent to prove a negative!

Come back to this point when you can prove it. You're destroyed here.

(By the way, you're referencing Qu Rahn from Jedi Knight? A game where the main character essentially finds a lightsaber in a garage, and somehow that makes him a Jedi?)

3) Oh, Vodo seems to think otherwise given that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick. Nor has the Grandmaster assertion been defeated, since all of your supposed alternatives have been "debunked" far more effectively.

And yes, both of them were weak in comparison to their opponents. Unless you actually think that Obi-Wan is in the same league as Dooku...

4) Wow! You have limited reading comprehension! Read the dialogue again where Odan-Urr is telling Nomi about how he participated in making the Sith extinct when the Republic and Jedi went into their territory.

Read his dialogue when he tells how he became proficient in blocking dark siders from the Force. Oh no, he must not have faced Sith Lords, because Sidious is indirectly linked to this point!

5) For...what? Got any scans?

6) "OMG, DOOKU NEVER COMES CLOSE TO OVERPOWERING ANAKIN UNTIL HE CUTS HIS ARM OFF AT THE ELBOW!"

The above was your logic in another context.

7) Actually, those scans indicated that Arca was an obstinate old fool with no understanding of basic human nature. He told Kun what he couldn't do, thereby reinforcing Kun's resolve to do it. He knew that Kun was heading into dangerous territory for himself and others yet did precisely zilch to stop it.

8) You need to read the narration. It clearly states that the battle turns when Nomi uses her battle meditation on them. This is not to mention that Sylvar can be reasonably formidible when she gives into rage, as she frequently does.

But big deal. One unnamed dark side creature, that Thon outclasses in size, intelligence, and weight. What an accomplishment! It's almost like a bulldog against a chihuahua!

I note you didn't even answer the fact that Vodo was in the battle for Coruscant. *golf clap*

Selectiveness is deadly in a debate.

9) Actually, he said, "if my plans fail." Then he seems to get an idea and tells the two presumed leaders of the massassi to gather all (not "all but one"😉 of the massassi for the ritual. QED.

10) Uh huh, and this can be done faster than Kun can blast him instantly how? Oh, and here I thought you consistently argued that Sidious did everything without artifacts!

Regarding the Odan point, to quote Illustrious: "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."

And we have plenty of proof in the form of his dialogue. It is obvious he stripped Sith lords of the Force in the past.

QED.

11) Please tell me how in God's name Kun could have used Makashi, a fencing style, with a short-hilted double-bladed saber?

Nor do his strikes in the comic resemble in any way those of Makashi. It was a unique style, get over it.

12) Already eh? Ooh, a massive fleet of an illusion. Somewhat like the weakling Aleema Keto did consistantly, right?

And watch ROTJ again, I told you. Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker wouldn't hold a candle to the Jedi of old in a saber fight.

13) I can be selective too, watch!

Sidious: Benchpressed into a reactor by a one-handed cyborg, hand sliced off by a neophyte saber user, ripped apart by his own force technique, shot in the back by Han Solo.

Exar Kun: Overpowered every singular opponent he came across in The Sith War, was only defeated with the combined strength of all the Jedi in the galaxy.

Accomplishments are really irrelevant though, this is a fight.

14) Ooh, an ancient Sith technique. Note that it doesn't use the word the! And reference or, preferably, scan that quote. You cannot prove that Kun's attack is blockable, especially since he has at least two amulets with which to focus his power.

And you actually think force choke is a somehow different than simple telekinesis? Really, are you that desperate for Sidious to win? Your capacity to be ridiculous astounds me.

15) And Kun's artifacts taken directly from the source at Nadd's tomb, Korriban, and Sadow's hoard at Yavin IV. You seem to forget that Sadow had practically everything underneath the temples, guarded by his massassi and other beasts.

Anyway, what do you think was written on Nadd's scrolls, I ask again? What do you think those other artifacts strewn around the room even were?

"No, Sidious was only chucked into a bottomless pit by a cripple, etc etc."

Irrelevant, especially when you consider that after four thousand years of isolation Kun was driven quite mad by the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

I detect an inconsistency!

Unlike Kun, Sidious never requires an artifact to enhance his power or do anything.

OR you can just kill Kun by sucking out his life, lightning him into next week or simply match him with one of your artifacts.

You're pathetic. Anyway, to answer that, prove that Kun requires his amulet to do anything. Then tell me how it's relevant because Kun isn't fighting naked!

Kun's....destroyed a temple wall.

...with blasts that apparently required little to no effort on his part, which he could do repeatedly without pausing. Kun's feats are still more impressive and far more useful in a fight.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Damn.

QED.

Janus....stop coming into threads in the middle of debates and continuously saying QED.

1. Please, Nai cna attest to the fact I admit when I'm wrong. And a grimace isn't proof of a stalemate....gritting one's teeth while locking blades before stepping back and using a trump card is.

2. Books were written on Dark Forces, buddy boy. Now, every scrap of evidence shows you need to prepare to ebcome a ghost...You have...."But Kun was so STROOOOONG! His ponyrail could change the fabric of time!" According to official word, Obi-wan gave up and prepared to join the force. Name a single time a force user who vanished didn't prepare for death. Daehsra'Cor in NJO anyone?

3. "Oh, but VOdo was grandmaster of the Order"
Behind the scenes

* Some fans have come under the belief that Vodo was the Grand Master of the Jedi Order at the time of his death, but there is no canonical source for this.
No canon source? What's that? It's all fan conjecture!?
Well, seems you've been caught in a lie now.

4. Read the Fall of the Sith Empire. Odan Urr didn't do a damn thing to help in the battle. Not a goddamn thing. Oh, and he says he became proficient in the technique in those DAYS, not that he used it in the war.

5. To see Odann was near death. And it's not a comic, it's a large sourcebook.

6. If Dooku is shown matching Anakin point for point, the two lock together, Dooku showing exertion, than Dooku pulls otu a trump card to beat him....

7. Yep, that's Arca for you. Wow, what a bunch of winners, Kun came from.

8. You mean he sent the night beast down? Please, we've seen him again. The entire point was if he screwed up, when the Jedi came down, the night beast would be waiting. He'd already decided to suck the life from the MAssassi. Quote: "I can fight in other ways with the Sith knowledge! I can survive!"

9. What'd Vodo....DO in the battle of Coruscant? Crouched by the Chancellor....that was really it. Oh, wait I forgot, he and Nomi, whi'd shown herself capable of finishing Ulic with the wall of light restrain Ulic...and that one dark side beast is still more than Vodo has to his name

10. Name one time Kun prefers to 'just blast' an actual opponent. He only did it once when survival depended on it. In all other cases, he preferred smaller scale techniques. And draining'd be instantaneous. Proof of 'stripping Sith Lords of the Force' now.

11. "During the time of the Clone Wars and many centuries preceding it, the Jedi Order seldom practiced this technique. There was, if at all, so little lightsaber-to-lightsaber and melee combat involved in a Jedi's life that many in the Order didn't bother to teach and/or learn it as it was thought impractical. During this era, Niman and Ataru were the more popular fighting forms being taught and learned. Makashi, however, was very common during the younger years of the order, before the advent of blasters, when melee weapons were abundant. Sith lord Exar Kun, for example, was a Form II master at his time. To most Jedi, Makashi did not seem to have much use; however, to a Sith or Dark Jedi, learning and mastering Makashi would have been a goal."
Kun was a Makashi user. Deal with it.

12. And just six years later, Luke cleaves his way through a small army of Dark Jedi. How dare Luke not fight with CGI. Kun defeated every opponent in the Sith war? Wow! TWO PEOPLE! And not counting his complete failure to beat Ulic.

13. "It's a deadly sith technique, but the holocron showed me how to block it." Force choke works a liiiiittle different than a force push. Are you really so desperate for Kun to win?

14. what was written in Nadd's scrolls? And Nadd knew....what? He was never taught anything truly great by Sadow, hence him killing Sadow out of rage.

15. Learn to read. I said Palpatine never needed artifacts to do what he did, but he had them in abundance.

OMG, Kun did the equivalent of FIRING A GUN! Palpatine destroyed a fleet. With no amulet. With no effort. Considering Exar was a dead mean before he got the amulet...

Fine, since achievments aren't relevent...name one thing, just one, that Kun did that equals Sidious's feats. Prove his amulet would kill Sidious, prove that Kun, in his already supreme arrogance that he never uses the same thing again-it only cost him his hand after all- would use it instantly.

Name one way Kun would be able to counter a drain that sucked life and energy out of millions of people. Or force lightning that charred fifty people into a crisp. Or anything Kun's done that matches Darth Sidious whatsoever. He never used the amulet in such a way again during his fights, why not now? If he actually used it against a sentient, powerful opponent, how would it work? Considering Sidious has more knowledge of the Ancient Sith than Exar could ever hope to gain....Exar's knowledge stopped at Sadow. Sidious had direct training from and with Marka and his predecessors. Not to mention he unlocked the secrets of the force from a holocron, and absorbed the power of a Sith holocron.

In the time it takes for Kun to lift his hand to fire, he'll have been torn apart by a force storm, or a vessel in his brain'll explode. Or his neck will snap. Or he'll be force lightning'd into a crisp. Or he'll fall to the ground as a lifeless husk.

Hmmm, still no mention how a servant who wasn't a fraction as strong as Palpatine managed to match Ood Bnar who was drawing massive energy from Ossus itself

And open the DE and Dark Side sourcebooks, read about Sidious...and then tell me how Kun would ever stand a chance. C'mon, now, when does he use those amulets against an actual opponent when he can fight them luxuriously? He was a bit pressed for time against Odan but all too happy to duel Ulic and Vodo.

Little fanboys can't save Exar

Lightsnake, I saw that you asked for a single jedi that did not prepare to join the force. How about Qui-Gon, he could not have prepared since the ability to do so was forgetten, yet he became one with the force.

Also Lightsnake, if, as you say, Sidious had items, why would he not use them? It would be completly stupid not to use them

Oh and if you say that he did not need them, while there is no proof that Kun needed it either. It just makes it easier. If Sidious was smart, he would have used them because it would make it easier in combat, not using them would be dumb.