Exar Kun and Ulic versus Sidious and Dooku

Sidious's mastery of the Force was both prodigious and extraordinary, to the point that the Dark Empire Sourcebook states that he "has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines" and that "it is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

As I mentioned, it's an obsolete book that was published before the TOTJ, the MAIN SOURCE for Sith powers. Get over it.

Even using that quote, it still mentions "it is believed," which of course would be the case, because 99.99999999999999999999999% of the galaxy has never even see some Sith powers.

Sounds real inferior. And lost to Mace? Only one of the greatest Jedi swordsmen ever. Lost to DE Luke? With the help of anakin Solo's raw force power in his mother's womb and Leia herself...and yes, I'm sure Kun could beat Luke...despite the fact he was double teaming a surprised Luke with Kyp Durron.

Funny how everyone that Sidious lost to is suddenly also put on a pedastal. Ragnos never lost to anybody, Kun never lost to anybody either, what does that say?

Of course, a few quotes about Ragnos despite the fact he's never shown doing anything...

More Feat Wars. Cut out the logical fallacy crap.

The one that should be saying "Oh Please" is me, I'm getting tired of your nonsensical bullshit ad nauseum.

Originally posted by Illustrious
As I mentioned, it's an obsolete book that was published before the TOTJ, the MAIN SOURCE for Sith powers. Get over it.

Even using that quote, it still mentions "it is believed," which of course would be the case, because 99.99999999999999999999999% of the galaxy has never even see some Sith powers.

Funny how everyone that Sidious lost to is suddenly also put on a pedastal. Ragnos never lost to anybody, Kun never lost to anybody either, what does that say?

More Feat Wars. Cut out the logical fallacy crap.

The one that should be saying "Oh Please" is me, I'm getting tired of your nonsensical bullshit ad nauseum.

1. Name a single contradictory statement in DE. Wait, you can't...in fact, TOTJ has to confirm to fit earlier EU, just like everytihng else does. In fact, given recent retcons, TOTJ could be stated as contradictory.

2. Kun lost to a group of Padawans. Mace was outright stated as one of the finest swordsmen ever in the order. Name anyone of reknown Kun ever fought who were even MENTIONED as powerful....he stalemated with a weakened, exhausted, Sith poisoned Ulic. And yes, we know Ragnos fought....one person.

3. Come on, what'd ragnos do to compare?

1. Name a single contradictory statement in DE. Wait, you can't...in fact, TOTJ has to confirm to fit earlier EU, just like everytihng else does. In fact, given recent retcons, TOTJ could be stated as contradictory.

Since when does later canon have to confirm to fit earlier canon? Not in comicdom, stop changing that parameter around. I can confirm it was the SOURCEBOOK for a D6 RPG. So by this logic, the Baldur's Gate sourcebook is more valid than the Forgotten Realm books themselves. Please.

2. Kun lost to a group of Padawans. Mace was outright stated as one of the finest swordsmen ever in the order. Name anyone of reknown Kun ever fought who were even MENTIONED as powerful....he stalemated with a weakened, exhausted, Sith poisoned Ulic. And yes, we know Ragnos fought....one person.

Yup, put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a Jar. Considering it was the Golden Age and the high point of Sith power, that's pretty impressive. Kun lost to a group of padawans as a spirit, just like Sidious' spirit lost to... oh wait, his spirit did jack shit.

3. Come on, what'd ragnos do to compare?

So by this logic, Ragnos is weaker than Han Solo. Fanboys never stop being amusing.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Since when does later canon have to confirm to fit earlier canon? Not in comicdom, stop changing that parameter around. I can confirm it was the SOURCEBOOK for a D6 RPG. So by this logic, the Baldur's Gate sourcebook is more valid than the Forgotten Realm books themselves. Please.

Yup, put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a Jar. Considering it was the Golden Age and the high point of Sith power, that's pretty impressive. Kun lost to a group of padawans as a [b]spirit, just like Sidious' spirit lost to... oh wait, his spirit did jack shit.

So by this logic, Ragnos is weaker than Han Solo. Fanboys never stop being amusing. [/B]

1. That applies fully to DE and canon it has influenced, as has the Dark Side Sourcebook, Ultimate Adversaries and the TOTJ Companion sourcebook. Sourcebooks are on the continuity and nothing you say'll change it.

Please! Kun's spirit was stronger than it EVER was in life. It had massive power to draw and focus on, centuries of hibernation. We've seen Sidious's spirit gain life again and suck life out of a planet. And give me a break, you're digging yourself a hole with this Han Solo bull,...was Han a Force user shown to have amazing powers? No? Ok then.

1. That applies fully to DE and canon it has influenced, as has the Dark Side Sourcebook, Ultimate Adversaries and the TOTJ Companion sourcebook. Sourcebooks are on the continuity and nothing you say'll change it.

No, you said later canon has to confirm to fit into current canon, that's a downright lie. They do not have to be confirmed. Later canon can supercede earlier canon any day of the week and twice on release day. TOTJ is later canon and cements that the ancient Sith were godlike and titanic entities who's mere remnant artifacts made other people uber.

Besides, that quote itself still doesn't lend itself to the interpretation you are making of it. The ancient Sith alchemy and magic were hardly "known" abilities.

Please! Kun's spirit was stronger than it EVER was in life. It had massive power to draw and focus on, centuries of hibernation. We've seen Sidious's spirit gain life again and suck life out of a planet. And give me a break, you're digging yourself a hole with this Han Solo bull,...was Han a Force user shown to have amazing powers? No? Ok then.

Where is your support for this?

According to your feat wars, because the spirit did not freely blast holes and demolish temples, it is nowhere near as strong as his body. Way to be caught in another instance of hypocrisy.

I was using the Han Solo bull to mock your logic, if you had half an eye to tell.

[lightsnake logic] Han Solo had more demonstrated feats than Ragnos, so he > Ragnos! [/lightsnake logic]

Please, you're digging yourself a bigger hole with repeated selective incorporation, as I've just pointed out again.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, you said later canon has to confirm to fit into current canon, that's a downright lie. They do not have to be confirmed. Later canon can supercede earlier canon any day of the week and twice on release day. TOTJ is later canon and cements that the ancient Sith were godlike and titanic entities who's mere remnant artifacts made other people uber.

Besides, that quote itself still doesn't lend itself to the interpretation you are making of it. The ancient Sith alchemy and magic were hardly "known" abilities.

Where is your support for this?

According to your feat wars, because the spirit did not freely blast holes and demolish temples, it is nowhere near as strong as his body. Way to be caught in another instance of hypocrisy.

I was using the Han Solo bull to mock your logic, if you had half an eye to tell.

[lightsnake logic] Han Solo had more demonstrated feats than Ragnos, so he > Ragnos! [/lightsnake logic]

Please, you're digging yourself a bigger hole with repeated selective incorporation, as I've just pointed out again.

1. And never says they were better than the future generations. Those Gods were crushed by the JEdi on three planets. Many times have later errors been retconned. C'mon, what of DE sourcebooks contradict now?

2. I, Jedi? JA trilogy? He had the temple and millions of souls to focus his power on and draw from.

1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8)

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.

We know the flesh on his hand was hideously burned by the power

This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.

Kun decided he didn't want to face Sylvar either and had Kalgrath deal with her.

Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

When Kun destroys a fleet-and if he could, he wouldn't have been screaming in the dark at the end- then perhaps he can measure up

Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

1. And never says they were better than the future generations. Those Gods were crushed by the JEdi on three planets. Many times have later errors been retconned. C'mon, what of DE sourcebooks contradict now?

And "what a god Sidious" got benched into a reactor by a cripple, had his hand hewn, and was shot in the back by a non force sensitive. Your point exactly?

Yes, Naga Sadow's Massassi were beaten by the combined forces of the Republic and the Jedi with some help from Gav and Ludo Kressh.

Like I said, your point, exactly?

2. I, Jedi? JA trilogy? He had the temple and millions of souls to focus his power on and draw from.

So where does it indicate that he was way more powerful in death than in life? How come he didn't use the same techniques he did in TOTJ where he crushed things with just the force? If he had the same power, why didn't he use it and just blast holes through the padawans? Could it be that his spirit was possibly weaker?

So suddenly you extrapolate that because there were other souls there, he was stronger, yet you refuse to do ANY extrapolation for ANYTHING that could damage your pitiful argument?

Bias, fanboyism, logical fallacy, and startling inaccuracies. QED, you're done, sit down.

And I imagine Lightsnake's reply to those megaposts will be like this...

1. etc. etc.

2. etc. etc.

3. etc. etc.
...

And so on. Nowhere near the size and completely lacking in adherence to logic.

QED, man. Give it up.

Dr. Sorgo is here.

Well... It seems you have an extraordinary case of Fanboyism.

There is a Cure.

It's called.... Wake up and smell the fact that Sidious wasn't the most powerful character around!

It's as if you've fusioned his Intelligence with his Power.

THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!

Sidious used an Army to kill the Jedi Order, he used the Death Star to blow up planets, he used Vader to do his fighting, etc etc.

How could someone you claim is so powerful be so damned cowardly and have so many working for him? Hell, in all the confrontations he got into in the Movies he either lost or stalemated. Mace beat him, Yoda stalemated with him and Vader chucked him in a Generator shaft. He just wasn't that damn powerful! One of the most Manipulative and Intelligent Characters? Of course! But the most powerful? No.

I have been keeping tabs on you and have seen your replies to me. You ALWAYS have an Excuse for him on anything he has lost or anything he has SUCKED at.

Look! You've won an award!

Go home.

Yoda: Described as strongest enemy the darkenss had ever known
Mace: Descriebd as one of the greatest swordsmen the order ever produced.
Vader: Destined to kill him.

Oh, and of course, we ignore how Kun never fougght anyone who showed much strength, was tricked by Padawans and casually dismsised by Mara Jade as the definition of failure...Kun's brilliant response? "Yeah, but the Emperor died!"
"So did you."
"Yeah,. but....well....haha! I'll go destroy Luke's body!" *Vanishes.
"He's walking into a trap. He's dead."

The great Exar Kun who could apparently blaast unblockable ray beams from his hand-ignoring how he never did it again and a group of padawans killed a fully grown Leviathan? Then same Kun who ended the Sith war by begging Ulic Qel-Droma not to elave him? The same Exar Kun who was intimidated by a pair of infants and replled by Luke? Same Exar who never receioved any help from the Ancient Sith's spirits and didn't know a third of what Palpatine did? The same Palpatine who was only defeated-unlike Kun, his spirit was never destroyed- by the Jedi of eons holding him down in the light...intimidated by all Jedi of the era to all the Jedi of all time, hmmm....

Deal with this little passage: And in DE, Palpatine is also referred to as 'Godlike'...the only way to ever truly destroy him was to expose him to the light. Written down and I quote:
They drew light from the stars, from the rocks, from the twisted metal of the Emperor's throne room . . . and from the wells of courage deep within themselves. Their harmony swelled now to a crescendo of light –

The Emperor blinked.

There was something wrong, something horribly wrong. He could not feel his wrath now, could not feel the awesome power pulsing through him. The darkness that was his eternal companion – the darkness that penetrated every fibre of his being – was gone. He reached for his lightning, but it did not answer. He summoned his winds, but they did not come. He snarled in impotent rage – and only then did he understand.

Only then did he see the light.

He screamed in wordless agony, a scream of horror that cut deep into the soul. The light washed over him, washing away his evil, burning away the darkness that fed him, that empowered him, that filled his being. The light enveloped him, driving away the shadows of all his lifetimes.

He was the Master of the dark side, the Lord of all it offered. War itself had become his weapon, his tool; he had defeated the Jedi because they'd failed to realize that they lost the moment they began fighting him. Their greatest warriors became his pawns, their most noble struggles fuel for his power. And as Yoda himself had fought him with all his power, he had not realized that he only fed the insatiable hunger of the dark side – the insatiable hunger of the Sith.

And yet these two – these three – had not fought him. They had not used the Force to crush him, to sweep him aside – but to heal him, to protect him. When he had plunged himself into the very depths of the dark side, they had used the light to reach down and pull him out.

They had exposed him to the light for the barest of instants.

And that was far too long for the Galactic Emperor.

The Force storm beyond had been summoned from the Emperor's soul, formed of his rage and his will and hurled upon his enemies – his implacable wrath given form. And now as the dark side fled him, his will no longer drove the raw destruction he had unleashed. His power overreached, his rage lost cohesion – and the unfathomable force he had unleashed and driven lost direction. No longer was his rage driven outward, and so the cataclysmic storm did the only thing it could –

It returned to its maker.

All the Galactic Emperor's godlike power – the incomprehensible fury of his Force storm – uncontrolled and uncontrollable, rushed back into his soul, and not even that abyss could hold it. No longer could he control the darkness. His power was too great, too massive – it filled him until he could hold no more, and even then it pressed on – his great power grew greater and greater, filling him beyond limit – until reality itself bent, and it all collapsed inward. In a moment of exquisite agony – agony beyond words, beyond description – agony that no living being had ever felt before, or ever would again – he became in fact what he had always been in spirit:

A black hole of the Force.

At that moment, all that was Palpatine the Undying – all that was Palpatine the Emperor – dissolved into nothing at all.

And with that, the mighty Emperor – the deathless Emperor – the invincible Emperor – conquered himself.

*rolls eyes* Yes, let's compare the 4000 year old spirit of Exar Kun driven half-mad by isolation and drained of his power by the eons to the real, flesh-and-blood deal!

As if the opinion of a neophyte like Mara Jade is worth a damn.

The great Exar Kun who could apparently blaast unblockable ray beams from his hand-ignoring how he never did it again

Okay. Luke is only shown force choking once. Does that mean he can't do it anymore? OMGWTFLOGIC.

Then same Kun who ended the Sith war by begging Ulic Qel-Droma not to elave him?

...Because it was two years later and he was trapped, alone? Wow. God forbid Exar Kun has a human response.

Nevermind that it took all the Jedi in the galaxy to trap him in the first place...

No response to the megapost, as Janus predicted.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

YUou mean the soul of Exar Kun which ahd all that power to focus on coupkled with the souls of an entire race?

We've seen Luke force choke people several times, 1 and 2, Kun using those amulets may've helped JUST a bit in several scenarios.

It took all the Jedi in the galaxy to trap him? Where's that said at all? We know their powers generated a wall of light, but that was it...he was already doing soemthing he didn't completely understand and even posted the Night Beast as sentry should he fail...and he was tricked and beaten by Padawans.

And Palpatine: He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa AkhrÃ_n, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad HadÃ_d; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

First prove that the ritual gave him the power of "the souls of an entire race." All that we know for certain is that their sacrifice allowed him to free his soul, nothing more. Ergo, his spirit is weaker than his body and half-insane. And, finally, irrelevant.

Several scenarios...such as? And I was more-so pointing out the logical fallacy in your ridiculous statement. We see Kun use an ability that apparently has no consequences for him and which he does repeatedly, with no warmup or recharge time. And you claim that he's not going to be able to do it in a fight? I call bullshit.

It took all the Jedi in the galaxy to trap him? Where's that said at all?

he was already doing soemthing he didn't completely understand

Prove that it was his mistake. It is more likely that it was the Jedi attack that trapped him.

and even posted the Night Beast as sentry should he fail

I direct you to point 8, which you didn't address, above.

and he was tricked and beaten by Padawans.

...as well as Vodo and Luke, as a four thousand year old, half-mad spirit.

And Palpatine: He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa AkhrÃ_n, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad HadÃ_d; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

And then was benchpressed into a reactor core by a one-armed cyborg, had his hand cut off by a neophyte farmboy, and was shot in the back by an ex-smuggler. Good job being incompetant, Sidious.

1. Character guide, Essential chronology....

2. Scenarios it may've been of some use? Against Ulic and Aleema, agains tthe Jedi when they came calling. Considering the things on Yavin already, he could've leveled the playing field, if he was so strong against them....oh, and it may've helped against Vodo, the JEdi in the area and Ood Bnar.

3. All we see from the wall of light is a conflagration. We see Kun saying it opens doors he doesn't fully understand and knowing the price of failure. And oh, yes, how quaint...I directed you to the wiki article on Kalgrath, who after going to the isolation chamber, mutated and was later freed. I also want to see where it's said they needed every Jedi to fight Kun.

4. Vodo and Luke didn't even get in until Exar was trapped and already done for. Hell, they'd set the trap way before and Exar zoomed in for it AFTER having no response to Mara badmouthing him

5. It's funny how you miss the part Sidious wanted the clone to die to take Anakin. He says he'll die and is pleased when Han shoots him so he can enter Anakin. It's ALSO funny how Luke was accesing the force to an incredible degree. Even more amusing that we ignore Exar was trapped by a group of padawans. And Naga Sadow scewed up on every level. And Ludo Kressh was blown up a page after reappearing, and Ragnos was pressed back by Jaden Korr, and the fall of Kaan's Order....but hey, if you can't provide any rebuttal to a statement, an insult works best, hm? That farm boy redeemed a Sith Lord and realized the one way to truly defeat the Emperor. That farm boy rebuilt the Jedi Order. That farm boy saved the galaxy time and time again. Said in DE he was using the force to guide his hand against Palpatine....and we can't really ignore that one handed cyborg was the Chosen One, meant to kill Sidious

:And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

1) More nonsense. The end of TSW and everything after that doesn't make sense then. If he absorbed the force power of thousands of massassi, he would've been a match for the Jedi attack on Yavin IV. Since he wasn't, he didn't.

2)

And I was more-so pointing out the logical fallacy in your ridiculous statement. We see Kun use an ability that apparently has no consequences for him and which he does repeatedly, with no warmup or recharge time. And you claim that he's not going to be able to do it in a fight? I call bullshit.

3) And we know that the wall of light is an imprisoning move they used against Ulic Qel-Droma.

And oh, yes, how quaint...I directed you to the wiki article on Kalgrath, who after going to the isolation chamber, mutated and was later freed.

...Did you just have the balls to accuse me of not responding to a point?

Number 8, above, again.

I also want to see where it's said they needed every Jedi to fight Kun.

Every living Jedi was there. Whether they needed to be there or not is irrelevant. It's called overwhelming force.

4) Yes, Exar's spirit who is both 4000 years old and therefore weakened and also half-insane from that much isolation.

5) It's funny how you take every shameful failure of Sidious and make excuses for them while at the same time exaggerating the failures of his opponents.

There's nothing to respond to from your quote. It's what we call irrelevant.

Since you saw fit to accuse me of not responding to a point...

Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8)

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.

This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.

Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Well. Have fun.

Originally posted by IKC
1) More nonsense. The end of TSW and everything after that doesn't make sense then. If he absorbed the force power of thousands of massassi, he would've been a match for the Jedi attack on Yavin IV. Since he wasn't, he didn't.

2)

3) And we know that the wall of light is an imprisoning move they used against Ulic Qel-Droma.

...Did you just have the balls to accuse me of not responding to a point?

Number 8, above, again.

Every living Jedi was there. Whether they needed to be there or not is irrelevant. It's called overwhelming force.

4) Yes, Exar's spirit who is both 4000 years old and therefore weakened and also half-insane from that much isolation.

5) It's funny how you take every shameful failure of Sidious and make excuses for them while at the same time exaggerating the failures of his opponents.

There's nothing to respond to from your quote. It's what we call irrelevant.

1. Except *GAAAAASP!* It was for the actual ritual of freeing his body and ended with him as a spirit since his physical body would've been burned to cinders anyways.

2. And what they did against Ulic would've done reeeeal nice agains tKun. Would've won the 'War'

3. Explain the Character Guide and the Wiki article. Kun sent Kalgrath to the Isolation chamber. He left as the Night Beast. What was that about lying now, Kunite?

4. Yep. And notice Kun, who could fire numerous blasts with numerous items couldn't deal with them...why wasn't he blasting them, using his creatures and items? Proof Kun's spirit was weakned. In I, Jedi, it was stated he had the power of his temple to focus on long after...the same book where he's shot down completely.

5. When Kun had a Chosen One created to destroy him and the full force of Jedi throughout the eons along with the full strength of the Force turned on him, we'll talk

Little fanboys can't save your precious little Exar. He wa