We've actually had numerous discussions on the topic throughout KMC, especially the sports forum. I don't want to totally derail this topic, so here is one of the more recent threads. It is short though.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=537119&pagenumber=1
A basic idea from the side I support is this: While "dirty" techniques do change the fight, they usually give the more skilled grappler an even larger advantage. In the ring, grapplers and wrestlers are quite gifted in controlling their opponents on the ground; they can even render their opponent completely defenseless by isolating certain limbs. A street setting only enables the grappler to unleash all of the more unsightly techniques onto his opponent while controlling the person like he normally does.
Originally posted by Mindset
Testicular manipulation
You never disappoint.
Originally posted by StyleTime
We've actually had numerous discussions on the topic throughout KMC, especially the sports forum. I don't want to totally derail this topic, so here is one of the more recent threads. It is short though.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=537119&pagenumber=1
A basic idea from the side I support is this: While "dirty" techniques do change the fight, they usually give the more skilled grappler an even larger advantage. In the ring, grapplers and wrestlers are quite gifted in controlling their opponents on the ground; they can even render their opponent completely defenseless by isolating certain limbs. A street setting only enables the grappler to unleash all of the more unsightly techniques onto his opponent while controlling the person like he normally does.
👆
You never disappoint.
I agree with most of your posts in that thread, particularly on the standard bs response form "traditional martial artists," claiming they are "too deadly for the ring," or "I can't show you the techniques that are better than wrestling because they are secrete and far too devastating." But I still think submission fighting is a mistake and far to in a real physical confrontation against anyone who knows what they are doing.
Well virtual anything will work on an untrained fighter though. Hell, you could bust out some Wing Chun if you wanted, but I wouldn't recommend you doing that in the octagon...
I don't know if you have any wrestling experience, but if you do find a sparing partner and say "Okay dude, feel free to bite and head butt me while I try and make you tap out," and let me know if you win. hehe
Originally posted by StyleTime
I agree there. The average person is horrendously ineffective in a fight.That was actually my point dude. A trained wrestler or submission artist is only more capable when those "dirty" tactics are allowed.
I may have misread that, but it looks like you agree with me? 131
Then what are we fighting about?
Oh I still think that. Fighters have a hard enough time working for submissions on the skilled fighters in MMA even with rules favouring them. In a no-holds-barred, anything goes fight it would be exponentially more difficult. There is a reason BJJ and ground game became more prevalent after the rules were changed and head butting was banned in MMA.
I mean if you got someone in a leg bar, and their response was to - depending on the position - break your toes, bite, or fish hook, I think you would likely let go or loosen enough for them to get free. I've seen it happen before.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Oh I still think that. Fighters have a hard enough time working for submissions on the skilled fighters in MMA even with rules favouring them. In a no-holds-barred, anything goes fight it would be exponentially more difficult. There is a reason BJJ and ground game became more prevalent after the rules were changed and head butting was banned in MMA.I mean if you got someone in a leg bar, and their response was to - depending on the position - break your toes, bite, or fish hook, I think you would likely let go or loosen enough for them to get free. I've seen it happen before.
In a real fight, the guy who secured the knee bar would not gently crank it until the guy taps. He'd tear his leg off. There wouldn't be much time for biting, which likely wouldn't compare to having your leg destroyed anyway.
Not to mention, you forget "position before submission". Most dominant positions aren't going to leave much room for these "anti grapple" techniques. Try biting your way out of a side choke.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Submission tactics are absolutely worthless in a 2v1 fight. Striking tactics are not.
If your opponents are skilled, you're at the same disadvantage regardless. If they are not skilled, you could beat them either way.
Most submission techniques require several seconds of leverage to completely incapacitate an opponent. I'm telling you, pure submission tactics are worthless if you grab 1 opponent in a perfect hold with perfect leverage... and you have 1 other opponent kicking you in the head.
Look... if there was one perfect OR one mostly perfect fighting style... several thousands of years and hundreds of cultures would have found it by now. They haven't. There's no one perfect answer. Even moreso, there's no one answer that's usually better than most others, all things considered equal.
You can throw people into one another. Slams don't take long at all. Executing submissions doesn't take long either, assuming they aren't as skilled as you. If they are as skilled as you, you're in trouble whether you strike or grapple.
I wasn't arguing that one is superior to the other. I agree with you there. Grappling = striking.
I was talking about the tv trope.
Although, your serious response goes back to what I said. Unskilled people means you won't be rolling around so much as immediately breaking their arm then owning the other guy. If one is skilled enough to fight back, you are screwed either way.