Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Flash does have skills. Speed force skills..

But if we're talking about h2h skills, which I think we are, it's pretty obvious Hulk isn't in the same ballpart as Captain America.

Which is why the "Skill doesn't matter, only effectiveness" argument falls short as proof of skill, because one can be effective in a fight for reasons other than pure skill.

And Steve Rogers does have a stat bump on your average street. He could get away with being less skilled than someone, and still beat them down via being faster, stronger, or generally tougher..

Originally posted by namorsubby
So than flash is more skilled than steve and bruce? Nope.

you are simply wrong.

The Flash is certainly a more 'combat efficient' fighter than either.

Which is the term I'm using, and the term that actually has meaning, whereas 'skill' is unquantifiable and meaningless in the long run.

Originally posted by cdtm
Flash does have skills. Speed force skills..

But if we're talking about h2h skills, which I think we are, it's pretty obvious Hulk isn't in the same ballpart as Captain America.

Which is why the "Skill doesn't matter, only effectiveness" argument falls short as proof of skill, because one can be effective in a fight for reasons other than pure skill.

And Steve Rogers does have a stat bump on your average street. He could get away with being less skilled than someone, and still beat them down via being faster, stronger, or generally tougher..

The problem, is based on WHAT does the argument for Batman's supposed greater 'skill' (e.g. knowing a lot of techniques) being an actual singled out, notable advantage come from?

He gets the results that he gets. And that is all that matters. Your knowledge of techniques is not as important as what you are actually able to accomplish.

Batman is not a more accomplished fighter than Cap. Ergo, the argument is that the 'skill' argument is absolutely meaningless in the grand scheme of things; results.

Batman has showings of combat effectiveness against higher stat opponents, though.

Just because Cap beats down giant robots, and could hurt Rhino, doesn't mean a street can't compete with him, if they're skilled enough.

Look at it like this:

George Foreman, Joe Frasier, and Muhammad Ali. Ali is obviously the most skilled of the group. George Foreman, who is far stronger and probably tougher than Ali, lost to him, because Ali blows him away in pure talent.

Yet, Ali had the fight of his life from Joe Frasier. Frasier only beat him once, and lost the next two, but every single fight was an epic struggle in which Ali had to dig deep, and was in danger of losing.

And yet, Frasier could not beat Foreman.. Foreman destroyed Frasier, and easily at that.

If all three fighters were comic book characters, fans would argue Frasier beating Ali even once is PIS, because of how each performed against Foreman.

...than again, in real life people do argue a fights crooked, but that's beside my point..

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The Flash is certainly a more 'combat efficient' fighter than either.

Which is the term I'm using, and the term that actually has meaning, whereas 'skill' is unquantifiable and meaningless in the long run.

Theyre physically comparable. Bruce is more skilled. Bruce wins

Originally posted by cdtm
Batman has showings of combat effectiveness against higher stat opponents, though.

Just because Cap beats down giant robots, and could hurt Rhino, doesn't mean a street can't compete with him, if they're skilled enough.

Batman can hold his own but hes going to lose eventually. Cap regularly faces opponents more dangerous than Batman does and thats a FACT.

Originally posted by cdtm
That was snarkier than I intended..

The problem with Cap, is he's like the street version of Superman, in that he's pretty regularly protected, and has a fair amount of PIS thrown his way in the bargain..

Which muddies the waters both when trying to gauge who can beat him, because he's so rarely allowed to lose. Even someone like Deadpool, who you'd expect to at least give him a good fight, only lands an attack from happenstance and than runs like hell..

Cap is the Triple H of Marvel comics, basically..

Excuse me...you've been trying to nitpick and downgrade Caps feats from the very beginning. How the hell do you get to classify Caps feats as PIS when you don't even know the character? 🤨

Originally posted by cdtm

And Steve Rogers does have a stat bump on your average street. He could get away with being less skilled than someone, and still beat them down via being faster, stronger, or generally tougher..

LOL hes proven he can do just as well without the SSS, stop trying to nitpick.

Originally posted by Deadline
Batman can hold his own but hes going to lose eventually. Cap regularly faces opponents more dangerous than Batman does and thats a FACT.

Excuse me...you've been trying to nitpick and downgrade Caps feats from the very beginning. How the hell do you get to classify Caps feats as PIS when you don't even know the character? 🤨

The fact that you dont realize that bruce has a infinitely higher number of instances of training, ma versatility, and knowledge than cap clearly shows you dont know much about batman...and maybe even cap.

Originally posted by Deadline

Excuse me...you've been trying to nitpick and downgrade Caps feats from the very beginning.

Yes, because it's a nitpick to claim Cap beating down Hulk is PIS.

Give me a break. 🙄

Originally posted by cdtm
Yes, because it's a nitpick to claim Cap beating down Hulk is PIS.

Give me a break. 🙄

No it isn't PIS because hes done stuff like that forever. If a character has been doing stuff like that for his whole career its not PIS.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Skill is not meaningless. You simply have incorrectly defined it.

According to your definition more powerful beings like the hulk etc are more "skilled" than steve and bruce. They can easily stifle their offense due to being invulnerable to it. They can put them down with their offense by being much more than strong enough to do so. Simply beating another in a physical confrontation does not make an opponent more skilled.

I think you're missing the point and not getting it at all. You're arguing that batman is more skilled because he references the different martial arts he knows more often. The problem is we know that Cap has mastered every martial art on earth already, the point hes trying to make is he doesn't need to tell us what martial art hes using because we already know hes a master. Cap proves hes skillful not by mentioning what martial arts hes using but by making his martial art work.

Using Hulk as an example is retarded because we know that Hulk isn't a skilled martial arts and is using his powers and not skill. Thats not the case for Cap and then you have people cdtm trying to argue its his stat boost...jesus.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yes, because it's a nitpick to claim Cap beating down Hulk is PIS.

Give me a break. 🙄

Originally posted by Deadline
No it isn't PIS because hes done stuff like that forever.

😆

Originally posted by cdtm
😆

Not entirely sure why you're laughing but its true. If you're laughing because of that then you're showing you're ignorance again.

I guess Karate Kid is full of PIS.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Not true.

Yes it is. Ive read loads of Cap and Batman comics you haven't. For starters you'tr being very dishonest you've forgotten that alot of Batmans rogues gallery are genuises that hire thugs to beat him.

You have self-inflicted amnesia.

Originally posted by namorsubby

The fact that you dont realize that bruce has a infinitely higher number of instances of training, ma versatility, and knowledge than cap clearly shows you dont know much about batman...and maybe even cap.

You're making statments without backing them. You haven't provided any proof at all and then claiming that its because I should know. Thats lying

As far as I'm aware Batman has more references of the different martial arts he has studied but you're exaggerating. Anyway that doesn't prove hes more skillful.

Are you actually going to porvide any proof at all?

Originally posted by namorsubby
wrong again. Skill is knowledge utilized which is far from meaningless. It gives characters like bruce and steve victories against physically superior opponents time and again.

Theyre physically comparable. Bruce is more skilled. Bruce wins

Being a good fighter > knowing things.

Being a good fighter means getting good results as a fighter. A vast well of knowledge by itself is useless.

Batman has feats in fights, and Captain America has feats in fights. Cap's feats are better or at the very worst equal, ergo, Cap is the better fighter at the very worst, equal.

This constant attempt of sectioning off 'skill' from their bodies of feats, when the FEATS themselves are already a totality, is an embarrassing plea for a consolation prize.

There is none to give.

The funny thing is Batman's abilities are in large part due to his physical capabilities. Batman does impossible things, because his stats are superhuman(not by narrative necessarily, but all good street level guys are functionally impossible), and impossible realistically. Take Batman's knowledge, and apply it to an actual, average human body, and you have a combat effectiveness drop of almost 100%.

Captain America is of course, also Superhuman in physical capabilities. Moreso than Batman. But the thing is it is impossible to draw the line on how MUCH to attribute whatever success they have to their technique alone in a respective comparison, as they both owe nearly all of their success to their physical capabilities.

The bottom line; Captain America's physical stats are superior across the board, and when forced to analyse his fighting techniques, they are functional, quick, with no superfluous movements.

Batman's physical stats are less, and he uses a lot of impractical, unproven moves in reality--and we're supposed to give him some kinda brownie points for a reason like that? Why?

Skill unquantifiable and meaningless.

Talk about quantifiable factors in a fight, like again, reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, and physical speed. Those are what makes a fighter good. And those are stats that Captain America has a marked advantage in.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Being a good fighter > knowing things.

Being a good fighter means getting good results as a fighter. A vast well of knowledge by itself is useless.

Batman has feats in fights, and Captain America has feats in fights. Cap's feats are better or at the very worst equal, ergo, Cap is the better fighter at the very worst, equal.

This constant attempt of sectioning off 'skill' from their bodies of feats, when the FEATS themselves are already a totality, is an embarrassing plea for a consolation prize.

There is none to give.

The funny thing is Batman's abilities are in large part due to his physical capabilities. Batman does impossible things, because his stats are superhuman(not by narrative necessarily, but all good street level guys are functionally impossible), and impossible realistically. Take Batman's knowledge, and apply it to an actual, average human body, and you have a combat effectiveness drop of almost 100%.

Captain America is of course, also Superhuman in physical capabilities. Moreso than Batman. But the thing is it is impossible to draw the line on how MUCH to attribute whatever success they have to their technique alone in a respective comparison, as they both owe nearly all of their success to their physical capabilities.

The bottom line; Captain America's physical stats are superior across the board, and when forced to analyse his fighting techniques, they are functional, quick, with no superfluous movements.

Batman's physical stats are less, and he uses a lot of impractical, unproven moves in reality--and we're supposed to give him some kinda brownie points for a reason like that? Why?

Skill unquantifiable and meaningless.

Talk about quantifiable factors in a fight, like again, reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, and physical speed. Those are what makes a fighter good. And those are stats that Captain America has a marked advantage in.

The thing is batman doesn't actually know more martial arts anyway.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not entirely sure why you're laughing but its true. If you're laughing because of that then you're showing you're ignorance again.

I guess Karate Kid is full of PIS.

A pre crsis character who, on his very first showing, fought PC Superboy to a standstill, and has a history of comparable feats is COMPLETELY comparable to a random Ca--...

Wait, why am I arguing seriously? You just admitted Cap beating down Hulk isn't Spiderman vs Firelord/PIS!

So yeah..

😆

Originally posted by Deadline
The thing is batman doesn't actually know more martial arts anyway.

Yes I know. People like to ignore that, so I was simply going with what they actually do on panel frequently.

Originally posted by cdtm
A pre crsis character who, on his very first showing, fought PC Superboy to a standstill, and has a history of comparable feats is COMPLETELY comparable to a random Ca--...

You're completely missing the point again...ugh! See if this isn't too difficult.

1. What KK does isn't PIS because he has lots of feats to back it up.
2. What Cap does isn't PIS because he has lots of feats to back it up.

What you're then saying is that the rule applies to KK but for some reason it doesn't apply to Cap. Its a double standard. Its irrelevant wether KK fought Superboy because I'm not arguing that Cap can beat Superboy I'm simple saying he could KO Hulk because he has lots of feats to back it up. Actually not lots LOADS.

Understand?

Originally posted by cdtm

Wait, why am I arguing seriously? You just admitted Cap beating down Hulk isn't Spiderman vs Firelord/PIS!

So yeah..

😆

Except Spiderman doesnt take on people like Firelord on a regular basis if he did it wouldn't be PIS. Firelord was tired anyway.

Cap can not beat down Hulk.

I'd compare your Cap love to Quanchi's Thanos love, but at least Thanos is genuinely uber..

Originally posted by cdtm
Cap can not beat down Hulk.

I'd compare your Cap love to Quanchi's Thanos love, but at least Thanos is genuinely uber..

Me: How do we deduce what a character is capable of?

Cdtm: Feats

Me: Right so do you think Karate Kid can KO Hulk?

Cdtm: Yes

Me: Why is that?

Cdtm: Because he has lots of feats to back it up eg on his first showing he took on Superboy.

Me: Well Cap can do it as well.

Cdtm: No he can't.

Me: ...but he has the feats to back it up, and he has alot of them. Hes not as skillful as Karate Kid but he could KO the Hulk.

Cdtm: It doesn't matter Cap doing it is PIS.

Me: I thought we just established we use feats to deduce what a character is capable of?

Cdtm: I know but I've just decided that eventhough we use feats to establish what a character is capable I've decided that when it applies to Cap it doesn't matter how many feats he has they're all PIS.

Me: 🤨

Cdtm: Fanboy!

For the record I think Cap Koing the Hulk is a high showing ie he could do it but it would be highly unlikely. Him Stunning and hurting bricks are the norm, however you could deduce from that the people hes managed to stun it is possible for him to KO the Hulk

Originally posted by Deadline
No it isn't PIS because hes done stuff like that forever. If a character has been doing stuff like that for his whole career its not PIS.

I think you're missing the point and not getting it at all. You're arguing that batman is more skilled because he references the different martial arts he knows more often. The problem is we know that Cap has mastered every martial art on earth already, the point hes trying to make is he doesn't need to tell us what martial art hes using because we already know hes a master. [b]Cap proves hes skillful not by mentioning what martial arts hes using but by making his martial art work.

Using Hulk as an example is retarded because we know that Hulk isn't a skilled martial arts and is using his powers and not skill. Thats not the case for Cap and then you have people cdtm trying to argue its his stat boost...jesus. [/B]

I said batman is more skilled because he displays more ma training, knowledge, and versatility in comics. statements pale in comparison to what's
actually shown on panel. If we go by statements primarily bruce is easily the best fighter in his universe.

Originally posted by cdtm
Cap is the Triple H of Marvel comics, basically..

He's the Shawn Michaels of Marvel, actually.