Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes. And Batman fights scarecrows, clowns and penguins... haw-som
Hrm.. I've got nothing. 😂
Maybe Cap wins... But so far, it looks like he's winning by default.
tbh, I don't care who wins, I just want to see a good debate on it. Where's all the Batman fans (Not the fanboys, just the fans who actually know what they're talking about.)
Originally posted by h1a8
You can't even make an argument that Cap is even equal or greater skill than Batman without the SSS. I dare you. Try! He has no showings without the SSS that's greater than Batman's best. NONE.
Ok yellowjacket and giantman without the SSS and dying etc Also he proved he can reach peak human levels without the SSS.
Either way we go by averages and on average Caps feats are better.
Originally posted by h1a8
Nazis are fodder. Any street in comics would pawn multiples of them in h2h fighting.
Doesn't matter they're skilled fighters and he was fighting them before Batman was born.
Originally posted by h1a8Baron Zemo and Red Skull are not top of the line grade A skilled h2h martial art combatants.
Doesn't matter they're skilled fighters and he was fighting them before Batman was born.
Originally posted by h1a8Even if they were then those two don't mean that Cap has MORE experience that Batman.
Of course not we just got the whole of his superhero career, which in canon terms is 1000s of years (korvac arc).
Originally posted by h1a8Batman has fought more times h2h against very skillful fighters than Cap has.
You don't know that and you're making shit up. Actually Batman has a tendency to fight thugs alot. While Cap is fighting highly trained terrorists and metas.
Originally posted by h1a8Cap has fought more against people with powers than Batman has. At least you can say is that experience is a wash. But you said something clearly false and without proof that Cap has more experience fighting class A martial artists in h2h only
Stupid argument just because a character isn't a martial artist doesnt mean that they're not more dangerous. Thats like trying to argue that beating The Hulk is an inferior feat to beating Bane because Hulk doesn't know any martial arts.....duh.
Oh and by the way the enemies that Cap fights on a regular basis are more dangerous than Batmans, martial arts or not.
Originally posted by DeadlineIrrelevant. We are referring to h2h fighting skill.
Ok yellowjacket and giantman without the SSS and dying etc Also he proved he can reach peak human levels without the SSS.
Caps h2h fighting skill feats are inferior you mean. Batman's feats look much better and more precise and smooth.Either way we go by averages and on average Caps feats are better.
Boooo! Horrible logic. CA was frozen for more than 40 years making him fighting before Batman was born irrelevant.Doesn't matter they're skilled fighters and he was fighting them before Batman was born.
Doesn't matter they're skilled fighters and he was fighting them before Batman was born.
Elucidate on this please.Of course not we just got the whole of his superhero career, which in canon terms is 1000s of years (korvac arc).
Batman has at least fought as many grade A martial artists as CA. CA just fought more meta beings.You don't know that and you're making shit up. Actually Batman has a tendency to fight thugs alot. While Cap is fighting highly trained terrorists and metas.
Being more dangerous is irrelevant. We are arguing h2h fighting skill.Stupid argument just because a character isn't a martial artist doesnt mean that they're not more dangerous. Thats like trying to argue that beating The Hulk is an inferior feat to beating Bane because Hulk doesn't know any martial arts.....duh.
Oh and by the way the enemies that Cap fights on a regular basis are more dangerous than Batmans, martial arts or not.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankNo one said that here. You are the slickest of the slick. Pretending to be non bias while secretly twisting words and arguments to make someone look foolish and you the winner. Marvel bias indeed.
I really don't get where the idea that Cap doesn't face skilled enemies is coming from.
Originally posted by Bentley
Captain America has 1000 years of fighting experienced because he confronted Korvac who was using a timeloop, he also made him keep his past experiences so he would be discouraged.
Well using that may sway me a little. Any issue numbers where this occurred?
Also know that experience helps skill but it doesn't prove it alone. For example, Thor has more fighting experience than CA but CA will stomp him in equal bodies in h2h.
Originally posted by h1a8
Well using that may sway me a little. Any issue numbers where this occurred?Also know that experience helps skill but it doesn't prove it alone. For example, Thor has more fighting experience than CA but CA will stomp him in equal bodies in h2h.
Am I right in thinking the subject of this thread is a fight between Bruce and Steve in their normal bodies, with Steve having the SSS? Not about who rates higher in pure h2h skill?
IMO if it comes down to pure skill the 2 seem evenly matched, with hardly anything to separate them.
If its a fight, where the outcome is influenced by physical attributes like speed reflexes and strength, as well as pure h2h skill, then Cap takes it, as he has the physical stats advantage.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Originally posted by h1a8
Well using that may sway me a little. Any issue numbers where this occurred?Also know that experience helps skill but it doesn't prove it alone. For example, Thor has more fighting experience than CA but CA will stomp him in equal bodies in h2h.
Captain America v3, issue 18. I'd recommend reading the entire story arc though, it's quite good.
Originally posted by h1a8
Irrelevant. We are referring to h2h fighting skill.
Look I'm going to explain this one more time than thats it. Cap and Batmans 'superpwer' is martial arts they don't have telekinesis or optic blasts so they have to use martial arts no matter who they are fighting.
Hulk is more dangerous than Bane therefore if Cap or Batman were to fight the Hulk they would have to use greater martial arts than they would with Bane, therefore Cap fighting the Hulk shows greater martial art skill than it would if he were fighting Bane.
Originally posted by h1a8
Caps h2h fighting skill feats are inferior you mean. Batman's feats look much better and more precise and smooth.
So you're deciding that Batman has more skill based on something entirely subjective? If you want to go by that logic then Punisher is probably the worst martial artist in all comicdom. His style is quite griity and realistic but hes managed to stalemate and beat alot more stylish opponents.
Even if that were true that doesn't prove anything. No character has been given a martial arts rating based on how they look performing martial arts. They get high rating based on feats, application knowledge and who they fight.
Originally posted by h1a8
Boooo! Horrible logic. CA was frozen for more than 40 years making him fighting before Batman was born irrelevant.
Actuallly he isn't because he came out of suspended animation when other super heroes were starting their career.
Originally posted by h1a8
Elucidate on this please. Batman has at least fought as many grade A martial artists as CA. CA just fought more meta beings. Being more dangerous is irrelevant. We are arguing h2h fighting skill.
You don't know that please stop making shit up. If you must know Cap has fought more skillful opponents because Batman tends to fight alot of street thugs. Caps canon fodder tends to be highly trained terrorrists eg Hydra, Ultimatum.
Originally posted by h1a8
Well using that may sway me a little. Any issue numbers where this occurred?Also know that experience helps skill but it doesn't prove it alone. For example, Thor has more fighting experience than CA but CA will stomp him in equal bodies in h2h.
I'm just listing reasons as to why Cap is better I'm not basing it just on one fact. Its better than trying to argue that Batman just looks better. facepalm
Originally posted by Deadline
Showings without the SSS beat Crossbones (Crossbones was a beast back then, decimated Bullseye in h2h and could have killed him in 1 sec) fought The Serpent Society who took down Paladin etc. In fact after his fight with Crossbones he trained even harder. He fought Bushman who thought he was so strong he was going to rip out his artifical limb again ie Cap had fought Bushman with the SSS fought him without out and Bushman couldn't tell the difference and was crapping himself.
I'd still give Batman the majority against most of those. You've raised a very valid question regarding who could actually beat Captain in h2h if they both had the same bodies, he is indeed quite high up there.
In this particular match (his regular body, Batman's own body), I still see Batman having the best feats and holding some advantage overall.
As always, 'skill' is completely unquantifiable as a term by itself.
You have to break it down in the sub-categories: reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, general physical speed...the end goal of 'skill' is providing your offense while mitigating the opponent's offense as best as possible.
--Hit and not be hit back.
It's not about how many shitty ass, impractical, flowery looking kung fu moves you can do.
All that being said, I find it impossible to give Batman ANY skill-edge. Hell, I don't think he's on Cap's level period.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
As always, 'skill' is completely unquantifiable as a term by itself.You have to break it down in the sub-categories: reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, general physical speed...the end goal of 'skill' is providing your offense while mitigating the opponent's offense as best as possible.
--Hit and not be hit back.
It's not about how many shitty ass, impractical, flowery looking kung fu moves you can do.
All that being said, I find it impossible to give Batman ANY skill-edge. Hell, I don't think he's on Cap's level period.
👆
Originally posted by namorsubby
Everyone seems to be over-looking the fact that bruce displays much more martial arts versality, knowledge, and evidence of training. It's a much a fact as caps edge in stamina according to comics. Bruce is more skilled.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
As always, 'skill' is completely unquantifiable as a term by itself.You have to break it down in the sub-categories: reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, general physical speed...the end goal of 'skill' is providing your offense while mitigating the opponent's offense as best as possible.
--Hit and not be hit back.
It's not about how many shitty ass, impractical, flowery looking kung fu moves you can do.
All that being said, I find it impossible to give Batman ANY skill-edge. Hell, I don't think he's on Cap's level period.