Just a final fyi to Deadline:
You accuse me of "looking for something to argue about" by bringing up Punisher vs Bullseye. But how you view Castles skill level is relevant to this discussion.. If you truly believe Frank Castle is anywhere in Bullseye, Elektra, or Daredevils ball park in h2h skill, I don't think you're the one to be arguing Caps case.. (Who is a Hulk killer, apparently, so no wonder you think Bats doesn't have a chance!)
And to all other Cap supporters, carry on.. I'm not targeting any of the reasonable posters, and see nothing wrong with believing Cap beats Batman.
Originally posted by cdtm
Just a final fyi to Deadline:You accuse me of "looking for something to argue about" by bringing up Punisher vs Bullseye. But how you view Castles skill level is relevant to this discussion.. If you truly believe Frank Castle is anywhere in Bullseye, Elektra, or Daredevils ball park in h2h skill, I don't think you're the one to be arguing Caps case.. (Who is a Hulk killer, apparently, so no wonder you think Bats doesn't have a chance!)
And to all other Cap supporters, carry on.. I'm not targeting any of the reasonable posters, and see nothing wrong with believing Cap beats Batman.
IMO, Bulleyes is nowhere near a grade A h2h combatant. At best he is a grade B h2h combatant.
Originally posted by Silent MasterYeah, without any thoroughly displayed and/or documented training history, style diversity, and knowledge of various martial arts. But cap doesn't need actual on panel proof of anything, hes got a bandwagon full of kmc fanatics to vouch for him. The same bunch who boost his strength feats with insanely high weight "estimations" based on how strong they desire him to be.
Except, Cap has the better stats and at least comparable skills.
Originally posted by namorsubby
Yeah, without any thoroughly displayed and/or documented training history, style diversity, and knowledge of various martial arts.
Again that means hes more skillul than Karate Kid. Doesn't neccesarily make him more skilled.
Originally posted by namorsubby
But cap doesn't need actual on panel proof of anything, hes got a bandwagon full of kmc fanatics to vouch for him. The same bunch who boost his strength feats with insanely high weight "estimations" based on how strong they desire him to be.
No he just wins fights. Actually people have already posted scans of his martial arts knowledge you ignored them.
Originally posted by namorsubby
Yeah, without any thoroughly displayed and/or documented training history, style diversity, and knowledge of various martial arts. But cap doesn't need actual on panel proof of anything, hes got a bandwagon full of kmc fanatics to vouch for him. The same bunch who boost his strength feats with insanely high weight "estimations" based on how strong they desire him to be.
Cap shows skill in every fight and his physical feats are better than Batman's.
Originally posted by Bentley
I'll conceed the showing argument, despite the fact that the comparision with Mantis or KK is outlandish. Nothing even comes close to suggest non-SSS Cap has that sort of advantage against anyone.
Not trying to argue hes as skillful as Mantis and KK, just used them to reinforce the point.
Originally posted by Bentley
It depends, at the beginning of his career he was quite the newb.Barely relevant, and I cannot vouch for that being truth.
Can't say for sure how skilled he was when he fought Cap.
I think that was a pretty good feat considering the circumstances but I don't care enough about it to argue any further especially when I'm having a hard enough time trying to convince you using perfectly legitimate feats. See below for example...
Originally posted by BentleyI'm going to ignore this argument because it's wildly based on speculation.
Complete and utter nonsense. Heres how I can make that assumption...I know the difference between Cap without the SSS was neglible therefore he can obvoulsy beat Spiderman without the upgrade. Simple.
Not to mention that he was almost in the exact same circumstance without the SSS and a supervillain he fought couldn't tell the difference and thought the samething was going to happen again.
Were do you come off telling me I'm speculating when you're the one who stated that Batman would murder Cap in h2h without the SSS?
Again I'm doing one hell of a job while you're providing absolutely nothing
Originally posted by Bentley
Hurting bricks is not the kind of ability needed to face Batman...
Its a showing of extreme skill. When we get two martial artists and we try to prove whos more skillful we look at various things. This is why Temugin is considered a better martial artist than Cap. Temugin has showings like hitting a being made of light, flipping over a tank and smashing Iron Man's face plate but hes only fought Iron Man. Hulk and Puma. According to that logic hes less skillful than Cap but when we take everything into consideration hes probably a better martial artist.
The same thing with Cap, he has better training, more experience, fights more dangerous opponents and can use high precison strikes and pressure point attacks. You could argue that if we took any of these points individually that none of them prove anything but when we take what he does as a whole it proves hes more skillful.
Originally posted by BentleyNow, this is an argument worthy of a discussion, it's a bit on the sidelines but I'll take it into consideration.
This is why I think you're trying to troll sometimes. Crossbones is a martial arts expert with a near peak human physique and you're trying to tell me its a bit on the sidelines? 🤨
It's 200% relevant.
Originally posted by BentleyIf Batman can neutralize high end bricks such as Gorilla Grodd without using weapons I don't see how "fighting thugs on a regular basis" has any repercussion with his skill. If Cap fought 5 year olds in a regular basis that wouldn't make him any less skilled.
Wait I thought neutralizing bricks wasn't relevant? The point is that its a checklist. We have already proven that Cap has more experience, now we know that he fights more dangerous opponents on a regular basis. Why does Batman get a free pass?
You can do a direct comparison and Batman loses.
Whos got more experience? Cap.
Whos better trained? Cap.
Who has more examples of the application of high precision strikes and pressure points? Cap.
Who fights more dangerous opponents on a regular basis? Cap.
Who states more often the various martial arts they have trained in? Batman. Thats the only advantage Batman has and it doesn't prove anything.
I think I killed this shit close the thread.
Originally posted by BentleyWill put it on my to-do list.
I agree, the lack of proof is discouraging. Sorry for making you lose your time.
Not sure if that was sarcasm. Still waiting for proof.
Originally posted by cdtmCastle, while holding back, gives Daredevil fits. Bullseye goes all-out lethal and gives Daredevil a hellish time. I don't see why a Punisher who isn't holding back and has no qualms with killing Bullseye couldn't take him on.
Why would I argue Punisher can't beat Bullseye? To argue that Punisher can't beat Bullseye without PIS, implies Punisher being on Bullseyes level in h2h is arguable. It implies Castle is better than Elektra, and at least comparable to Daredevil, in raw h2h skill. I think only you would believe that, Deadline.
The implication you're making uses ABC logic. And I've always felt the trifecta of Daredevil/Bullseye/Elektra (characters who've all beaten each other up) illustrates just why ABC logic is unreliable.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Castle, while holding back, gives Daredevil fits. Bullseye goes all-out lethal and gives Daredevil a hellish time. I don't see why a Punisher who isn't holding back and has no qualms with killing Bullseye couldn't take him on.The implication you're making uses ABC logic. And I've always felt the trifecta of Daredevil/Bullseye/Elektra (characters who've all beaten each other up) illustrates just why ABC logic is unreliable.
Exactly. I can't be bothered to deal with him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Castle, while holding back, gives Daredevil fits. Bullseye goes all-out lethal and gives Daredevil a hellish time. I don't see why a Punisher who isn't holding back and has no qualms with killing Bullseye couldn't take him on.The implication you're making uses ABC logic. And I've always felt the trifecta of Daredevil/Bullseye/Elektra (characters who've all beaten each other up) illustrates just why ABC logic is unreliable.
👆
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Castle, while holding back, gives Daredevil fits. Bullseye goes all-out lethal and gives Daredevil a hellish time. I don't see why a Punisher who isn't holding back and has no qualms with killing Bullseye couldn't take him on.The implication you're making uses ABC logic. And I've always felt the trifecta of Daredevil/Bullseye/Elektra (characters who've all beaten each other up) illustrates just why ABC logic is unreliable.
The thing is, whenever Punisher "takes on Bullseye", it usually means Bullseye has the upper hand, stands there and gloats, and gives Castle openings.. I can post scans, if you want, but I'll say that when BE took on Elektra, he tanked her attacks, went right for her jugular, and stabbed her in the gut. It was a straight forward ownage.
Yet we're expected to believe Castle, without a gun in his hand, not only tanks it (Which I'd be ok with), but dishes it out better than Elektra or Daredevil can? I recognize Castle has h2h training, but in no way is he a martial arts master, and the fact his opponents usually inexplicably break off their assaults is a red flag...
You may as well ask me to believe Wolverine can defeat Danny Rand/Iron Fist in straight martial arts.
Originally posted by cdtm
The thing is, whenever Punisher "takes on Bullseye", it usually means Bullseye has the upper hand, stands there and gloats, and gives Castle openings.. I can post scans, if you want, but I'll say that when BE took on Elektra, he tanked her attacks, went right for her jugular, and stabbed her in the gut. It was a straight forward ownage.Yet we're expected to believe Castle, without a gun in his hand, not only tanks it (Which I'd be ok with), but dishes it out better than Elektra or Daredevil can? I recognize Castle has h2h training, but in no way is he a martial arts master, and the fact his opponents usually inexplicably break off their assaults is a red flag...
You may as well ask me to believe Wolverine can defeat Danny Rand/Iron Fist in straight martial arts.
blahblahblahblah, stop derailing the thread.