Don't be so defensive. Cap is Cap all the time. He can't just cancel out the effects of the serum @ will buddy. We're not being A-holes, you're just throwing a hissy fight 'cause you're afraid Bats'll get hurt if he doesn't have his widdle knives w/him. My arm is a part of me. It doesn't wear off in an hour 😆
Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
Instrument:
1) A means by which something is done; an agency.2) One used by another to accomplish a purpose; a dupe.
3) An implement used to facilitate work. See Synonyms at tool.
4) A device for recording, measuring, or controlling, especially such a
5) device functioning as part of a control system.
Music. A device for playing or producing music: a keyboard instrument.I don't see how my definition contradicts any of the definitions of an instrument i.e. instrumentality, which are used in YOUR definition. It's all pretty much the same. There's no concrete refutation because you're just being a jerk.
Listen to the others here because you are just being silly. Not only did you get definitions but also sentances and how to properly use the words.
Oh geez I just got in a batch of steroids and now I am going to gadget up with them for some strength. The word doesn't work stop and just move on to more relevant pieces.
Originally posted by brainchild81
🙂 And Batman's chin has no protection on it @ all. You might have been confusing him for B.Panther. Cap's chin is exposed also
Even if a chin is exposed it does not mean your susceptible to being knocked out quicker than the next guy, knock outs come from the blood flow to the brain being stopped or slowed down.
Now some sre going to ask then how to people get knocked out by getting a straight cross to the face?
Simple:
When ever your head commits a radical shift from one point to another, the primary blood flow to brain is haulted but not because of your chin, it's your neck that's most damaging. Your chin can get shattered(which is worse or more painful)but it's you neck snapping that causes unconsciousness. Whether you took a good one to the chin(thus snapping your neck from right to left or vice versa), or you got a straight cross/punch and your necksnapped backward or forward.
Yes you can hardly see the snap when this happens, but it's the way it's always been.
Now you could also loose consciousness from blunt trauma to the brain, but this is an entirely different scenerio with an entire different set of circumstances.
What's my point?
Batman's head gear protects his neck quite well(though his chin is exposed).
NO! DON'T ARGUE POINTLESS DEFINITIONS, DAMMIT! I will not have this thread become Wolverine vs. Spiderman. When a debate about the definition of gadget has gone on for more than a page, the thread needs rescuing.
Take Cap with the SS, he has no advnatages at all without it. And the thread starter DID specify that they keep suits, so I'd say the implication is very strong that only Batman's belt gadgets (batarangs, flashbangs, etc) and Cap's shield are removed from them. Now stop arguing it, all of you.
I'll be back when I actually read through everything I missed from being gone a week...
We'd stopped about 28 minutes before you showed up. I honestly don't remember the starter saying costumes were on.
Originally posted by unknowableHe might have later on, but for the sake of argument, lets say he's wearing one of his costumes w/out deadly knives built into the gloves.
This is a fight involving fighting skill.We all know Batman is no joke, master of I believe 147 different styles of fighting.
America is no joke in his own right, but can his super serum strength(press 500lbs)give him the edge?
Hand to hand in the ultimate fighter octagon ring.
Who takes it?
Originally posted by unknowable
Well this is incerdible, and I wonder if we should take the last pic to heart,
"conceivably"(capable of being imagined or grasped mentally). Those writers used the right word, it basically means it's possible, but it does not mean it's absolute.
Just clearing that up.And yes, both men are wearing their suits.
Apparently yes, "both men are wearing their suits".
Come now folks, Batman is an awesome warrior, but one on physical the level of perhaps DareDevil, not Captain America. Cap can hoist up amounts "greater than 1100 pounds and has been known to lift 5+ tons" and he is a master of judo and boxing, not good at them, but a master. He has unlimited endurance. I do not care what Batman knows, he is up against too much if no weapons are included. Weapons are another story and although Cap has an incredible weapon with the shield, Batman's resources in his belt are seemingly unknown and might contain just about anything. The belt would definitely help Batman make up ground but even then, I do not think he would cut the mustard!
From Marvel.com
Powers
Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection, although he is somewhat enhanced. He can lift a sum greater than 1100 lbs and has been known to lift closer to 5+ tons under optimal conditions.Captain America has a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.
Abilities
Captain America has mastered the martial arts of American-style boxing and judo, and has combined these disciplines with his own unique hand-to-hand style of combat. He has also shown skill and knowledge of a number of other martial arts. He engages in a daily regimen of rigorous exercise (including aerobics, weight lifting, gymnastics, and simulated combat) to keep himself in peak condition. Captain America is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known.
Originally posted by AllanT
Come now folks, Batman is an awesome warrior, but one on physical the level of perhaps DareDevil, not Captain America. Cap can hoist up amounts "greater than 1100 pounds and has been known to lift 5+ tons" and he is a master of judo and boxing, not good at them, but a master. He has unlimited endurance. I do not care what Batman knows, he is up against too much if no weapons are included. Weapons are another story and although Cap has an incredible weapon with the shield, Batman's resources in his belt are seemingly unknown and might contain just about anything. The belt would definitely help Batman make up ground but even then, I do not think he would cut the mustard!From Marvel.com
Powers
Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection, although he is somewhat enhanced. He can lift a sum greater than 1100 lbs and has been known to lift closer to 5+ tons under optimal conditions.Captain America has a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.Abilities
Captain America has mastered the martial arts of American-style boxing and judo, and has combined these disciplines with his own unique hand-to-hand style of combat. He has also shown skill and knowledge of a number of other martial arts. He engages in a daily regimen of rigorous exercise (including aerobics, weight lifting, gymnastics, and simulated combat) to keep himself in peak condition. Captain America is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known.
I'd absolutely love to see Cap press 5 tons. As far as I know, he's never come close. In terms of strength feats, I give a tiny edge to Cap, and only because his have numbers. I'd really like to know how much strength is required to rip a pipe off of the ground though.
Ok, it's a site meant to talk up Cap. There've been at least 3 separate, excessively long bios about Batman already posted here, that basically liken him to walking death. If all of the stuff there were true, he'd be a mid level telepath by now. Batman is peak human in every respect as well, and he can fight for hours on end without slowing. If anyone here sincerely thinks that this fight will last for hours on end... Well, that was covered pages ago.
Originally posted by DizzleHours on end? Yes. Without slowing? Not likely.
I'd absolutely love to see Cap press 5 tons. As far as I know, he's never come close. In terms of strength feats, I give a tiny edge to Cap, and only because his have numbers. I'd really like to know how much strength is required to rip a pipe off of the ground though.Ok, it's a site meant to talk up Cap. There've been at least 3 separate, excessively long bios about Batman already posted here, that basically liken him to walking death. If all of the stuff there were true, he'd be a mid level telepath by now. Batman is peak human in every respect as well, and he can fight for hours on end without slowing.
Different comics give us a different standard of abilities for each comic character, that is something we all know. One time the same character does things that they could never do in another issue. I did recently see the new Avengers movie and if it is a good reflection upon Cap's strength and abilities, Cap jumped out of a flying plane and landed without injury. Cap also lifted and righted a multi-ton military vehicle with ease. He also withstood a severe beating from the savage Hulk, being knocked through the air several hundred feet against hard surfaces and thereafter, the Hulk trying to crush him in a bear-hug unsuccessfully. I think that Cap also was able to knock the Hulk down with a full body attack.
Just seeing this performance, it is clear that Cap has more durability than Bats. Certainly, he is made of tougher stuff, his skin tough enough to maybe withstand a bullet. I'l bet that being back-handed by the Savage Hulk over 100 yards in the air and bouncing off a steel and concrete building required more resiliancy than taking a bullet, certainly more durability than any normal human could withstand.
Bats is a stud, to be certain. But he could never withstand the Savage Hulk trying to crush him or smacking him in the air 100 yards away repeated times. Cap has super abilities, Bats has only those gained by training and knowledge. Compare the two and consider that Cap is also a master at fighting arts, one has to give it to Cap.
Originally posted by AllanT
Come now folks, Batman is an awesome warrior, but one on physical the level of perhaps DareDevil, not Captain America. Cap can hoist up amounts "greater than 1100 pounds and has been known to lift 5+ tons" and he is a master of judo and boxing, not good at them, but a master.
That's all good for a current Cap
but to bad this is Classic Captain America as I understand it.
Classic Cap can lift over his head 800 lbs with SUPREME EFFORT!
meaning he wouldn't be able to lift one pound more.
Originally posted by AllanT
He has unlimited endurance.
I don't know where you got that from, but what an exaggeration,
All of a sudden Cap is a cosmic with unlimited access to some energy source that he will absorb eternally. LOL!
Cap's stamina is great but no where near unlimited, were you serious?
The SS gave Cap a greater capacity to exert energy before fatigue poisons settle in his muscles but to an unlimited degree, with time(enough time)even Cap begins to tire
Originally posted by AllanT
I do not care what Batman knows, he is up against too much if no weapons are included. Weapons are another story and although Cap has an incredible weapon with the shield, Batman's resources in his belt are seemingly unknown and might contain just about anything. The belt would definitely help Batman make up ground but even then, I do not think he would cut the mustard!
With weapons this wouldn't even be a fight, it would be a slaughter, courtesy of Batman, but there are no weapons so we need not discuss it.
Originally posted by AllanT
Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection, although he is somewhat enhanced. He can lift a sum greater than 1100 lbs and has been known to lift closer to 5+ tons under optimal conditions.Captain America has a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.
(Classic Cap bio)from Marvel too
Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection. While not superhuman, he is as strong as a human being can be. He can lift (press) a maximum of 800 pounds with supreme effort.
Originally posted by AllanT
Captain America has mastered the martial arts of American-style boxing and judo, and has combined these disciplines with his own unique hand-to-hand style of combat. He has also shown skill and knowledge of a number of other martial arts. He engages in a daily regimen of rigorous exercise (including aerobics, weight lifting, gymnastics, and simulated combat) to keep himself in peak condition. Captain America is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known.
Batman is a MASTER of 127 styles of fighting, including those you mentioned not to add the rigorous mental training he's undergone and still upgrades to further his skill.
His ability to strike with chi force is also forgotten sometimes, giving him a strike force that shatters 2ft thick trees and brick walls.
Here we go.
[QUOTE=6364214]Originally posted by AllanT
[B]Different comics give us a different standard of abilities for each comic character, that is something we all know. One time the same character does things that they could never do in another issue. I did recently see the new Avengers movie and if it is a good reflection upon Cap's strength and abilities, Cap jumped out of a flying plane and landed without injury. Cap also lifted and righted a multi-ton military vehicle with ease. He also withstood a severe beating from the savage Hulk, being knocked through the air several hundred feet against hard surfaces and thereafter, the Hulk trying to crush him in a bear-hug unsuccessfully. I think that Cap also was able to knock the Hulk down with a full body attack.
Just seeing this performance, it is clear that Cap has more durability than Bats. Certainly, he is made of tougher stuff, his skin tough enough to maybe withstand a bullet. I'l bet that being back-handed by the Savage Hulk over 100 yards in the air and bouncing off a steel and concrete building required more resiliancy than taking a bullet, certainly more durability than any normal human could withstand.
Are we now using cartoons and movies as references for comic characters now?
Originally posted by brainchild81
Maybe with all his smarts he knows when he's beat. Just because you don't know when Batman's outclassed doesn't mean Batman doesn't. He yeilded. Deal with it.
I never said it didn't happen, I said it was bad writing. Crossovers are still unnusable, by forum rules, and for good reason. Deal with it.
That doesn't change the fact that he's FAMOUS for NOT operating @ near lightspeed or using pretty much any of his abilities to their best. Moot point & you know it. Please try again.
Was his super hearing on the fritz that day? Forgot to put in his super contact lenses? Regardless of whetehr he was moving at lightspeed or not, Batman got around ALL of his powers. And the fact remains that YOU asked for scans of Batman disappearing from someone noteworthy. I showed him doing it to possibly the most noteworthy being on DC Earth. Try again... but please do better.
I remember 2. A werebi**h with a mental disorder and some fool stupid enough to think Ras would be with him in the afterlife like a god. Verrry impressive🙄 You think Cap would scare as easily as those pitful people?
I never said Cap would be. YOU asked for scans of him scaring people, I provided them. Good thing you understand what's happening so well. Pretty soon, you'll be like... the next Nancy Drew or something. 😉
Are you still trying to qualify that? OK I beat up a Kryptonian w/a broken spine. I guess I'm ready to take on Superman. He'd be nothing new to me(See how dumb that stuff sounds) 🙄 Funny how even w/1 broken arm he was still able to punch Batman in the face. Where's the Batspeed? Real Cap would've finished him off w/the right. Another moot feat(or show of experience), unless this is Batman Vs Cap w/broken right arm(No shield no gadgets), then it's totally valid😆
Attack at his English: "Qualify that"? Ha.
Attack at his logic: I said myself that it was a low end combat feat. However, since it WAS a Cap clone, it shows that Batman DOES have experience in fighting against Cap's STYLE, much like you would have more experience fighting against heat vision and sueprstrength if you fought a crippled Kryptonian. (I'd still bet on him, btw, broken back or not) I never said Batman wins because of that fight alone. Your grasp of the situation and my arguments is really shining through here, keep it up. 🙄
The dude sees everything in slow motion(including Batman). Either he moves slower than grass grows or it's PIS. Plain & simple.
OR, Batman is both very, very fast by himself, and has mad awesome skills enough to put a resounding kibosh on Zeiss's ass. He's done it repeatedly, btw, this wasn't the only time.
During a training session. Wow. Doesn't she wanna have sex w/him? 😄
You ever sparred with someone? You ever let someone hit you in the face? Hell no. They fight to the best of their ability, they just don't use lethal force. Batman got the best fighter on DC Earth in a hold that required her to use superstrength to escape from. Speed, skill, precision... an overall wonderful feat. ANd Brainchild's astounding interpretation of the situation tells him that, and immediately, and the adoring masses applaud his sparkling brilliance and maturity. (heehee, he said "sex"😉
Relax guy. Sorry, but when I see PIS or something that isn't really impressive, I have to speak on it. I haven't disregarded all your scans, only the ones that you can't see for what they really are.
Or you just can't see a point if it's standing in front of you and laughing...
The whole JLA/Avengers thing shows I'm a tad bit better than you @ interpreting a scenario.
Ouch. Ouch. The egotistic ad hominem that gave rise to every single crack I made about your intelligence and "interpretation skillz". That one stings.
I won't let love for a character compromise my judgment. Put your insults and anger to the side and you'll realize that the feats I've downplayed were deserving of it. I can't help it if you can't tell PIS when you see it. It's another case of you seeing what you want to and me seeing what's there. You'll remember that I did say SOME of them were valid.
Translation:
"Oh, young grasshopper, you have much to learn of the comic book ways. I is supreme master, always right. You must not let anger cloud your judgement, for it may bring you to the path of the dark side... The side that disagree with what I say... Ohhhh..."
I never knew you were a Kung Fu sensei. My apologies, master.
And if you think I'm angry, your interpretation skillz are worse than the attempts at wisdom make them look. I insult you, but only once you start trying to talk down to me. It's the Golden Rule, I just happen to be delivering the "how you want to be treated" part.
😆 That's not what I meant. I wasn't clear enough. My theory on the peak human strength thing is based on size. See my posts in the Cap/Kingpin thread. Kingpin is stronger than Cap because of his size and larger muscles. If they were the same size Cap would probably be slightly stronger because of the serum. You know how in abilities summaries they say "posseses the speed and strength of a person his hieght age and build who engages in exersise bla bla blah"? That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah, but you said speed... size and strength have NOTHING to do with speed, and THAT is what I was calling you on. Master sensei. 😉
I hope you're joking or said that out of anger. Starting to sound like ya got something against Cap. SS serum isn't steroids though. Cap didn't just use the serum and then go sit on the couch either. Since you called it that though, who do you expect to be a faster sprinter, the guy who trains hard or the guy who trains hard AND uses steroids? If you're asking who got their physicallity in the more admirable way, the answer is Batman. That won't really mean much here though. After is over, they aren't gonna disqualify Cap for "doping". Now for my cheapshot. *clears throat* Batman used Venom before 😛
Yes, it was a joke. Though it could also have been the rageohol... (I'm a rageoholic, therefore I am addicted to rageohol... No? Fine, you guys don't appreaciate great humor.) I was responding to the "Cap got the SS, therefore he's inherently better" line. He's enhanced, but the comics show that they are extremely close, if not exactly equal, in nearly all physical respects.
Oh, and if you must know, the guy without steroids would be faster, as the boobs and heart failure would slow the other one down. 🙂
AND Batman is not permenantly on Venom, so your attempts at humor fail miserably.
Show me the scans of the Watcher observing Batman and saying "not even Captain America is fast enough to do this" and you'll have something 😆 I think @ first you had speed as even. Now you have Bats being faster. What's changed?Close, but the SS gives Cap an edge, even if it's a small one.
Aha, I have scans all over the place of every Watcher in the DCU saying exactly that. Batman actually ran so fast that he ascended beyond the concepts of time and multiversal barriers. Then he went and beat the hell out of Wolverine.
I'm amazed. You, with your bordering-on-mystical powers of situation interpretation, have misunderstood me!!! I originally said they were equal. When everyone said "Cap is better cuz he is", I posted feats. When everyone refused to respond with similar Cap feats, I said Batman is faster, because no one would bring forth evidence. NOw that there is evidence, I changed my stance back to equality. You said Cap was faster the entire time. I said taht you can't say Cap is faster when there is evidence that says otherwise. In this case, "otherwise" means that the evidence says they are EQUAL, which IS in conflict with your belief. Therefore, even though you say Cap is faster, the evidence says otherwise. (they're basically equal... which is what I said)
Can you post that fight again?
I'm actually on a different compuer, mine's in the shop. I don't have the scans uploaded here, so it'll take a bit. Give me a second.
Ask and thou shalt receiveth...
http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m60.jpg
http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m36.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m68.jpg
http://img44.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc210&image=443_batlocked1
http://img45.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc99&image=239_batlocked2
http://img7.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc149&image=c5c_batblow1.jpg
And hot damn, reading it again, it says he primarily uses a discipline of Aikido, though his earlier moves show very clearly that he is well versed in other styles as well. It should also be pointed out that this is the deadliest martial arts master that Lady Shiva has at her disposal. (short of her, naturally) Considering who that comes from, the relative closeness of the fight is understandable. Another fairly good Batman showing.
Originally posted by DizzleI get it. Now that you know what really happend(Bats yeilded), it's bad writing.😆 Truth hurt?
I never said it didn't happen, I said it was bad writing. Crossovers are still unnusable, by forum rules, and for good reason. Deal with it.
Originally posted by DizzleCome on now. Noteworthy'd be Shiva, or DS, someone who isn't FAMOUS FOR IGNORING HIS OWN POWERS like Supes is. Try again... but please do better.
Was his super hearing on the fritz that day? Forgot to put in his super contact lenses? Regardless of whetehr he was moving at lightspeed or not, Batman got around ALL of his powers. And the fact remains that YOU asked for scans of Batman disappearing from someone noteworthy. I showed him doing it to possibly the most noteworthy being on DC Earth. Try again... but please do better.
Originally posted by DizzleI think I wanted to see him scare someone noteworthy. They weren't. Try again... but please do better.
I never said Cap would be. YOU asked for scans of him scaring people, I provided them. Good thing you understand what's happening so well. Pretty soon, you'll be like... the next Nancy Drew or something. 😉
Originally posted by DizzleThe English attack was unnecessary, but successful. 1. The guy's not Cap. 2. His arm is broken. 3. Never said you said Bats wins because of this. 4. You did say Cap'd be nothing new to Bats because he fought a guy that's not Cap with a broken arm. Still doesn't make too much sense. Try again... but please do better.
Attack at his English: "Qualify that"? Ha.
Attack at his logic: I said myself that it was a low end combat feat. However, since it WAS a Cap clone, it shows that Batman DOES have experience in fighting against Cap's STYLE, much like you would have more experience fighting against heat vision and sueprstrength if you fought a crippled Kryptonian. (I'd still bet on him, btw, broken back or not) I never said Batman wins because of that fight alone. Your grasp of the situation and my arguments is really shining through here, keep it up. 🙄
Originally posted by DizzleMaybe not, but it still doesn't make a bit of sense. Maybe somebody else can better explain it. No need to try again. Don't think you're capable. Don't be insulted though. I doubt anyone can make sense of that crap. Either Zeiss's slow as molasses or that was bad writing.
OR, Batman is both very, very fast by himself, and has mad awesome skills enough to put a resounding kibosh on Zeiss's ass. He's done it repeatedly, btw, this wasn't the only time.
Originally posted by DizzleOf course she was fighting her best. That's why she DIDN'T use her superspeed on him 🙄 Seriously dude, a blind kid in a blizzard could see she wasn't fighting anywhere near the best of her ability, don't have to be an expert like me🙂 You just need average interpreting skills. You just don't have even that I guess. Keep that up and I'll get Draco in here.😆 When she's serious, she ends up stepping on Batman. Didn't you see that fight? She wasn't using lethal force either. She don't need no stinkin' lethal force to f**k Batman up. Come on now. I'm not a fan of WW, but I know that humans can't hang w/her. WTF?
You ever sparred with someone? You ever let someone hit you in the face? Hell no. They fight to the best of their ability, they just don't use lethal force. Batman got the best fighter on DC Earth in a hold that required her to use superstrength to escape from. Speed, skill, precision... an overall wonderful feat. ANd Brainchild's astounding interpretation of the situation tells him that, and immediately, and the adoring masses applaud his sparkling brilliance and maturity. (heehee, he said "sex"😉
