Originally posted by leonidas
but strange and dr strange were different beings and seemed to have different powers -- at least from what i recall. if i'm wrong, please correct me, but i don't think strange's feats can be used to promo dr strange . . .
I'm not sure either 😛 . I just saw thoes in the Respect Dr. Strange thread and above them said "bloodlusted Strange" so I figured they might add something to the debate. I haven't read the comic with that fight so I not sure if the two are different or not. Maybe Longpig or someone else who has it could be more helpful.
i have the issue, i just can't remember what exactly 'strange' was. i remember it was sort of confusing, and i didn't like the resolution. probably why i don't recall. but the real strange was . . . trapped or something. i don't think it was actually a great showing for the doc, but like said, i'd need to go back to reread the bizarre arc . . .
It was Doc's dopperlganger. He'd been infected by Salome, and this infection would have killed him had he remained, so he stopped time and created two doppelgangers. Vincent Stephens took care of Doc's business affairs, while Strange searched for artifacts for Doc. They aren't real people, only magical constructs. Strange was redeemed by fighting by Clea's side in the Dark Dimension while Doc straightened things up in 616.
Yeah. Frightening stuff. Then, in typical Doc fashion, he gets her to defeat herself. The Vishanti forsook her after she was willing to sacrifice a planet to destroy Strange. I guess she never really studied The Book.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if, in the heat of this battle, the Vishanti would forsake Strange if he was causing too much destruction. The only times I remember them denying him before was when he first was dealing Sligguth, Shuma Gorath and all that, and Mephisto vs Satannish. Even then, they gave him advice.
that meph v satannish arc was pretty good. it's another example that strange can't simply deal with these huge cosmic level menaces by just snapping his fingers.
and a bloodlusted strange may well be denied power by the 'light' forces, but he can also access black magic, but i think that would be out of character for him and i wonder if such a display would cost him his mantle os supreme sorcerer.
hmm . . . just a couple more things to consider in this fight!
Originally posted by leonidas
thor ko'd strange pretty easily in the blood and thunder arc. most of it seemed like pis, but strange was completely ineffective (as was almost everyone!) against wm thor in that arc.
that is crap. why are you deceiving people? strange joined the battle after wm thor gained control of the soul gem instantly making him more powerful than his original self. Second wm thor with the soul gem is not the same as thor. So don't make invalid statements in the argument "regular thor vs. dr. strange".
long pig says
"But, when did Strange ever say he was below Surfer.....or even Thanos? Especially in raw power....he's multiples more powerful than both in raw power....maybe not strength/speed, but power output, he's most definitely above both. He's shown to be able to take both Thanos and Surfer on and hold them down before when the combined effort of Drax/Adam Warlock/Thor/Firelord/Nova couldn't.
We don't really go by character's words, we go by feats. Strange's feats put him above both Thanos and Surfer.
If we DO want to go by a character's words....then Wolverine is seriously the best there is. Wolverine>everyone. "
Also note that Thanos was powerful enough to encase wm Thor in a energy field for a while. How much more powerful would dr. strange field would be while he casts a spell to instantly defeat Thor.
Originally posted by h1a8
long pig says"But, when did Strange ever say he was below Surfer.....or even Thanos? Especially in raw power....he's multiples more powerful than both in raw power....maybe not strength/speed, but power output, he's most definitely above both. He's shown to be able to take both Thanos and Surfer on and hold them down before when the combined effort of Drax/Adam Warlock/Thor/Firelord/Nova couldn't.
We don't really go by character's words, we go by feats. Strange's feats put him above both Thanos and Surfer.
If we DO want to go by a character's words....then Wolverine is seriously the best there is. Wolverine>everyone. "
Also note that Thanos was powerful enough to encase wm Thor in a energy field for a while. How much more powerful would dr. strange field would be while he casts a spell to instantly defeat Thor.
As strong as a graffite pencil.
Lol, jk, but yes i agree, unless thor (regular) has some insane magic resistance, thiers not really much he could do that Dr strange couldent do better (non physically)
Originally posted by h1a8
that is crap. why are you deceiving people? strange joined the battle after wm thor gained control of the soul gem instantly making him more powerful than his original self. Second wm thor with the soul gem is not the same as thor. So don't make invalid statements in the argument "regular thor vs. dr. strange".
😑
deceiving people?
first off, it was the POWER gem.
second, whose to say the gem granted thor more magical resistance?? why couldn't strange have just turned him into a table anyway? i mean with prep, strange has countered the entire IG itself! and he DID have prep when he faced thor. and the watch. and ss. and thanos ultimately used a GUN to imprison thor.
third, how the hell do YOU know strange could have fashioned a shield even STRONGER than thanos's to hold thor?? if he COULD have, why DIDN'T he?? he had prep, he had a chance. he's faced and countered the gems before. so?
and fourth: who the hell is deceiving anyone??
you piggy (heh) back lp's arguments, but lp himself -- strange's biggest fan and a friend of mine -- says it would be a tough fight. i also say IT IS CLOSE. i asked you for proof strange can transmute a thor-level character. do you have any? i said he's had low showings: he has. i said he's proclaimed himself below the power of other characters: he has. if you and lp don't want to take his own word for it, fine. your perogative. just don't call me a liar. i said strange's shields have been weakened when he gets tired -- check hulk 299, check scan below. i don't feel like getting the hulk scans. after playing inside hulk's brain, he comes out and tries to hold hulk who batters him unconscious. why didn't he just whip up an instant spell to ko hulk? or transute him? in the blood and thunder arc, bill smacks him in the mouth (where is his shield? why not whisper bill to sleep or transmute him and change him back later?) in warlock chronicles and sends blood flying from his mouth. and below, is the image of strange about to get killed by enchantrss and executioner only to be saved by clea -- and yes they have given thor trouble in the past, but thor has also beat them both down BADLY! in an issue of ss he is ko'd by a RAY GUN by nebula!
strange is NOT invincible, and thor most certainly can win the fight. i've no problem debating the issue. i have a problem with someone calling me a liar, then piggy-backing someone else's arguments because they can't come up with something more convincing on their own.
and all due respect to piggy -- his opinion is not ALWAYS correct. you're MORE than entitled to your opinion and i'll respect it even if i disagree with it. but keep the insults to yourself.
Originally posted by leonidas
😑deceiving people?
first off, it was the POWER gem.
second, whose to say the gem granted thor more magical resistance?? why couldn't strange have just turned him into a table anyway? i mean with prep, strange has countered the entire IG itself! and he DID have prep when he faced thor. and the watch. and ss. and thanos ultimately used a GUN to imprison thor.
third, how the hell do YOU know strange could have fashioned a shield even STRONGER than thanos's to hold thor?? if he COULD have, why DIDN'T he?? he had prep, he had a chance. he's faced and countered the gems before. so?
and fourth: who the hell is deceiving anyone??
you piggy (heh) back lp's arguments, but lp himself -- strange's biggest fan and a friend of mine -- says it would be a tough fight. i also say IT IS CLOSE. i asked you for proof strange can transmute a thor-level character. do you have any? i said he's had low showings: he has. i said he's proclaimed himself below the power of other characters: he has. if you and lp don't want to take his own word for it, fine. your perogative. just don't call me a liar. i said strange's shields have been weakened when he gets tired -- check hulk 299, check scan below. i don't feel like getting the hulk scans. after playing inside hulk's brain, he comes out and tries to hold hulk who batters him unconscious. why didn't he just whip up an instant spell to ko hulk? or transute him? in the blood and thunder arc, bill smacks him in the mouth (where is his shield? why not whisper bill to sleep or transmute him and change him back later?) in warlock chronicles and sends blood flying from his mouth. and below, is the image of strange about to get killed by enchantrss and executioner only to be saved by clea -- and yes they have given thor trouble in the past, but thor has also beat them both down BADLY! in an issue of ss he is ko'd by a RAY GUN by nebula!
strange is NOT invincible, and thor most certainly can win the fight. i've no problem debating the issue. i have a problem with someone calling me a liar, then piggy-backing someone else's arguments because they can't come up with something more convincing on their own.
and all due respect to piggy -- his opinion is not ALWAYS correct. you're MORE than entitled to your opinion and i'll respect it even if i disagree with it. but keep the insults to yourself.
You make good points. I'm sorry if I offended you. I just can't understand why you would mention wm thor in this thread (he is not regular thor). Second, why didn't you mention the power gem he seized.
Many people who read that post you wrote will assume it was regular thor who got the best of strange (many have not read or heard of what you are talking about). That is why I said you were deceiving people. But you may have not been intentionally doing this. So I am very sorry.
I believe you are mostly arguing what will happen in the comic book if these two actually fought. If that is the case then you are right. The writers wouldn't have strange transmute thor. This would be too easy for someone as popular, liked, and looked up to as thor.
But theoretically, can he? There is plenty of evidence that says yes.
But writers won't write something like that against thor. And it is not because thor can't be transmuted (because he has been before). I only piggy back on lp's arguments because I don't like when people make good arguments and nobody refutes them (They just ignore everything they said and say other stuff).
To win an argument one must refute the opponents arguments and then come up with an argument of their own. Otherwise, the debate is nonsense and it will get nowhere. So in conclusion, in an actual comic the battle will be very close. But if I were given the power and knowledge of strange and someone else given the power and ability of thor and in which we battled then I will surely win. (Based on the near infinite power that I can summon and use it to either transmute thor, create a large enough concussive force to ko thor, re-enchant mjolnir, become invisible and attack thor, stop, slow down, or reverse time for my advantage, etc. while protecting myself with my auto shield)
Originally posted by h1a8
You make good points. I'm sorry if I offended you. I just can't understand why you would mention wm thor in this thread (he is not regular thor). Second, why didn't you mention the power gem he seized.
Many people who read that post you wrote will assume it was regular thor who got the best of strange (many have not read or heard of what you are talking about). That is why I said you were deceiving people. But you may have not been intentionally doing this. So I am very sorry.I believe you are mostly arguing what will happen in the comic book if these two actually fought. If that is the case then you are right. The writers wouldn't have strange transmute thor. This would be too easy for someone as popular, liked, and looked up to as thor.
But theoretically, can he? There is plenty of evidence that says yes.
But writers won't write something like that against thor. And it is not because thor can't be transmuted (because he has been before). I only piggy back on lp's arguments because I don't like when people make good arguments and nobody refutes them (They just ignore everything they said and say other stuff).To win an argument one must refute the opponents arguments and then come up with an argument of their own. Otherwise, the debate is nonsense and it will get nowhere. So in conclusion, in an actual comic the battle will be very close. But if I were given the power and knowledge of strange and someone else given the power and ability of thor and in which we battled then I will surely win. (Based on the near infinite power that I can summon and use it to either transmute thor, create a large enough concussive force to ko thor, re-enchant mjolnir, become invisible and attack thor, stop, slow down, or reverse time for my advantage, etc. while protecting myself with my auto shield)
cool. 🙂 i don't usually spout off, i just hate when people say i'm lying. 😉 i didn't mention the gem because most know in the blood/thunder arc that thor had it. and some were saying strange could beat almost any level of opponent (which is why i brought up wm thor in the first place), so if he did or didn't have the gem didn't matter much to the point i was making.
you stated your case well. and you're right -- i try to look at how the fight would happen in a book, usually. sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes not, but taking characters OUT of books opens up loads of issues. in any event, my only problem stems from this part of your post:
<<The writers wouldn't have strange transmute thor. This would be too easy for someone as popular, liked, and looked up to as thor.>>
to which i would ask again -- where has strange ever transmuted a thor level character?
you might believe he could do so logically, but i'm not sure it would at all be that easy, and i've never seen him do this personally. so while you may BELIEVE he can do so, no evidence supports this claim. how can you say he CAN do it, if he never has? inferential opinion isn't enough in a debate -- at least not for something of this magnitude. based on thor's ability to drain magic, i could infer he SHOULD be able to drain any shield strange erects and basically just drain strange himself. i've SOME evidence at least of his ability to drain HUGE power sources (he drained the power of a CELESTIAL bomb!) in the past -- he's absorbed bolts from loki and the ss as well. my 'some' evidence trumps your 'no' evidence for transmuting, but while it may be logical to infer thor could drain strange, i doubt it would ever happen so i don't raise it as a possible way for thor to win.
strange could banish him (as he did hulk) but thor could comeback. he could use the bands, but namor showed that if strange's focus is shifted they can be broken, and even in the bands thor could punish him with lightning which might break his focus so thor could break free. you mentioned re-enchanting mjollnir -- i doubt it could do it without prep. at his base level, strange is not a skyfather. have you evidence that he has done this without prep? his standard bolts would be repelled or absorbed by thor. the eye would be a big advantage -- thor has been prone to tp attacks but he's also had success in battling tp, so it's hard to say if strange could get an easy win this way. an astral attack would also be hard for thor to counter, but a case might be made that thor is capable of traveling to the astral realm himself to battle strange. (in the past, thor traveled to an astral palace to battle an enemy). astral attacks are likely strange's best bet, but loki can travel and attack astrally as well and it hasn't helped him overcome thor. basically, imo, it comes down to the fact that strange doesn't really throw anything at thor that thor hasn't seen before.
so, i fall back on my original position -- strange is very capable of winning this fight, but i'd still give an overall advantge to thor.
and my apologies for getting a little . . . overly excited by your comments.
oh, and about lp -- i never ignore his comments. he and i have been over this what seems a 100 times. i'll not change his mind, he'll not change my mind. i was just happy to debate someone OTHER than lp for once! 😉
Originally posted by leonidasbased on thor's ability to drain magic, i could infer he SHOULD be able to drain any shield strange erects and basically just drain strange himself.
I've seen thor only absorb magic through his hammer. He may have absorbed energy projection though (I don't know).
As with most "humanized" versions of divine beings (i.e.mythological gods), thor is not without his foibles in both physical and personality traits. Though being a 'god', thor can be defeated by 'mundane' means. Early on, thor's skin has been established as, while being superhumanly resistant to injury, can be punctured or lacerated by high-powered firearms. Concussive force can injure and eventually knock him unconscious or have fatal results (such as the hammering blows of the Hulk). That said, Thor has survived a direct strike from a nuclear weapon without undue effect. Thus he is strong against energy projection and susceptible to concussive force. That is why I said Strange can use concussive force against thor. Thor is also susceptible to psionic influence and manipulation, either from gods(such as Loki) or mortal psychics of sufficient ability as in the case of Moondragon.
Can thor survive in the center of a star? If not then I (as dr. strange) can teleport him to the center of a star. I can also slow, stop, or reverse time to my advantage.
So instead of trying to transmute thor there are many other ways I can try to defeat thor. Remember time is on my side.
can he survive in a star? depends on how you interpret his visit to atum. was that a plane within the sun, or in the sun itself? still a question about that. but he could survive long enough to port back out or throw up an impenetrable force field. concussive force? he's fought mindless hulk to a standstill. stopping time may be an option, but can strange stop time without prep? i can't recall, but maybe. thor USED to be able to control time and time travel with his hammer but immortus removed that power i think.
anyways, the bulk of your argument i agree with -- strange is powerful enough to win. but thor, while very much prone to foibles the way he's been written in the past, has also been written to be a true god, and as such, i still think he would take the majority. it's hard to counter your time stop attack, though. that much i will concede.
good debate. 😉
Thor can absorb magical blasts, not spells. Strange can do both.
The Enchantress/Executioner fight is a bit of a misnomer, Strange allowed Enchantress to kiss him, which had the same affect as it did on Thor, it lowered his power/will. The only reason he let her kiss him was for plot purposes.
Anyway, Strange can still basically transmutate Thor's body into something else winning the fight. "Bones to jelly" worked on Dormmamu, it'd work on Thor.