His vision has nothing to do with how powerful he was and actually has nothing to do with Ragnos. It is all to do with Urr's wisdom and knowledge in the force. And he forsaw in his dream that the sith empire actually existed and that they posed a threat to the Republic. His vision did not occur because of the power of Ragnos.
Originally posted by Faunus
Numan, listen!Why the hell would Naga Sadow amd Ludo Kressh, the two most powerful beings left in the Sith Empire, bow down to the spirit of Ragnos? Why would they give him berth even when he was on his deathbed? Hm? Because he's just that powerful.
Faunus, listen!
Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh did not show any signs of fear at all. If anything, they were shocked to see him as they were probably not familiar with force ghosts. Read the comics in depth and you will see you are wrong. They are polite out of respect and any signs of fear (more on Ludo's part) were due to the shock of essing Ragnos' spirit.
Originally posted by Numan
Faunus, listen!Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh did not show any signs of fear at all. If anything, they were shocked to see him as they were probably not familiar with force ghosts. Read the comics in depth and you will see you are wrong. They are polite out of respect and any signs of fear (more on Ludo's part) were due to the shock of essing Ragnos' spirit.
Yet still Sadow disobeyed him.. If he respected Ragnos that much he would not have done so.
So he didn't respect Ragnos, and if he didn't respect Ragnos why would he follow him? Out of fear.
Originally posted by Numan
He didn't follow him and when I was talking about respect, I was more reffering to Ludo. Naga Sadow was more shocked than scared.
So Naga Sadow was so shocked that he followed Ragnos for a hundred years?
Why the hell did Naga Sadow follow Ragnos through his life? He obviously didn't respect Ragnos his idea's he didn't agree with them and the first chance he had he went against them. Even though Ragnos told him not too. So what could it have been? The idea of the greater good, well he didn't think Ragnos knew what the greater good was either because he was more then happy to start a war after Ragnos was dead.
Not to start a civil war perhaps? Unfortunally thats exactly what he did after Ragnos died when he tried to attack the republic.
Then perhaps unwilling to lead? Yet still he claimed the throne or tried to at least after Ragnos died...
So why in heavens name would Sadow have followed Ragnos if not because of fear, like stated.
Also Ragnos was described by many people as the most powerful of the most powerful a god amongst gods. Do you which to argue those statements, without evidence?
Again fishy is 100% correct. He was described as the most powerful of the most powerful. Physically superior to everybody and anybody, with a terrifying grasp of the dark side. In the case of Sadow, in the absence of respect, there is fear. Kressh feared and respected Ragnos while Sadow feared him and waited til the funeral to strike.
Originally posted by Fishy
So Naga Sadow was so shocked that he followed Ragnos for a hundred years?Why the hell did Naga Sadow follow Ragnos through his life? He obviously didn't respect Ragnos his idea's he didn't agree with them and the first chance he had he went against them. Even though Ragnos told him not too. So what could it have been? The idea of the greater good, well he didn't think Ragnos knew what the greater good was either because he was more then happy to start a war after Ragnos was dead.
Not to start a civil war perhaps? Unfortunally thats exactly what he did after Ragnos died when he tried to attack the republic.
Then perhaps unwilling to lead? Yet still he claimed the throne or tried to at least after Ragnos died...
So why in heavens name would Sadow have followed Ragnos if not because of fear, like stated.
Also Ragnos was described by many people as the most powerful of the most powerful a god amongst gods. Do you which to argue those statements, without evidence?
Originally posted by Fishy
So Naga Sadow was so shocked that he followed Ragnos for a hundred years?Why the hell did Naga Sadow follow Ragnos through his life? He obviously didn't respect Ragnos his idea's he didn't agree with them and the first chance he had he went against them. Even though Ragnos told him not too. So what could it have been? The idea of the greater good, well he didn't think Ragnos knew what the greater good was either because he was more then happy to start a war after Ragnos was dead.
Not to start a civil war perhaps? Unfortunally thats exactly what he did after Ragnos died when he tried to attack the republic.
Then perhaps unwilling to lead? Yet still he claimed the throne or tried to at least after Ragnos died...
So why in heavens name would Sadow have followed Ragnos if not because of fear, like stated.
Also Ragnos was described by many people as the most powerful of the most powerful a god amongst gods. Do you which to argue those statements, without evidence?
I thought you meant Naga Sadow followed him when he came back as a spirit. I missed your point. However he only started the civil war with Ludo Kressh when he had most of the sith lords on his side. As I said before, one reason that he didn't strike against Ragnos could have been because of Ragnos' influence with the other sith lords. However when he was able to get the other sith lords on his side, and was selected as the new dark lord of the sith, he then waged a war against Ludo Kressh.
And in reply to your statement about others stating Ragnos to be the greatest, I just started playing KOTOR again and an hour ago when I found the Star Map for Korriban, Uthar Wynn stated Naga Sadow as the greatest of the sith lords.
Uthar Wynn is also a moron. If Sadow was "greater" than Ragnos, and "greater" in this case obviously meant "better at combat", than Sadow would have killed Ragnos years ago, murdered Ludo, and ruled unchallenged. He didn't.
And KOTOR does not overrule TOTJ, especially when Random Ignorant Sith Wannabe Wynn says so. The Mandalorian on Dxun says that Freedan Nadd was "A greater terror" than Revan and Malak. Should I just assume he can pwn anything?
The only evidence you are going by is that:
1. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were too scared to overthrow Ragnos. 2. And what others have said about Ragnos.
In reply to #1, Ludo Kressh naturally respected him and looked up to him (he was his apprentice) and as a true sith, was naturally a follower (this nature of the sith as a race is shown by the fact that when the exiled jedi came to Korriban, while outnumbered were able to turn the sith into slaves and the sith treated them as Gods). Naga Sadow was cunning and knew that he had to be careful to obtain his power, and felt that the best time to strike against Ludo kressh was with the sith lords on his side (he inspired these followers by deception and using the Republic as a scapegoat). Any fear that may have been shown because of Ragnos' ghost was likely to be shock at seeing him back from the dead (they were not knowledgeable of force spirits at the time).
In reply to #2, you cannot simply ignore what people have said about Tulak and Revan etc, and say it is just hearsay and than act as if what is said about Ragnos is clear evidence of his power. Uthar Wynn himself said that Naga Sadow was the greatest of the sith lords.
If anything, you could say that the fact that he was able to defeat Simus (who must have been strong in the force as he was able to stay alive as only a head without his body and vital organs - think also of all the midi-chlorians that he must have lost as well) and that he was able to come back from the dead as a spirit untrained are clear examples of his power, but still not enough to show he was more powerful than others such as Sadow etc.
Originally posted by Numan
The only evidence you are going by is that:
1. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were too scared to overthrow Ragnos. 2. And what others have said about Ragnos.In reply to #1, Ludo Kressh naturally respected him and looked up to him (he was his apprentice) and as a true sith, was naturally a follower (this nature of the sith as a race is shown by the fact that when the exiled jedi came to Korriban, while outnumbered were able to turn the sith into slaves and the sith treated them as Gods). Naga Sadow was cunning and knew that he had to be careful to obtain his power, and felt that the best time to strike against Ludo kressh was with the sith lords on his side (he inspired these followers by deception and using the Republic as a scapegoat). Any fear that may have been shown because of Ragnos' ghost was likely to be shock at seeing him back from the dead (they were not knowledgeable of force spirits at the time).
In reply to #2, you cannot simply ignore what people have said about Tulak and Revan etc, and say it is just hearsay and than act as if what is said about Ragnos is clear evidence of his power. Uthar Wynn himself said that Naga Sadow was the greatest of the sith lords.
If anything, you could say that the fact that he was able to defeat Simus (who must have been strong in the force as he was able to stay alive as only a head without his body and vital organs - think also of all the midi-chlorians that he must have lost as well) and that he was able to come back from the dead as a spirit untrained are clear examples of his power, but still not enough to show he was more powerful than others such as Sadow etc.
Originally posted by Numan
I thought you meant Naga Sadow followed him when he came back as a spirit. I missed your point. However he only started the civil war with Ludo Kressh when he had most of the sith lords on his side. As I said before, one reason that he didn't strike against Ragnos could have been because of Ragnos' influence with the other sith lords. However when he was able to get the other sith lords on his side, and was selected as the new dark lord of the sith, he then waged a war against Ludo Kressh.
And in reply to your statement about others stating Ragnos to be the greatest, I just started playing KOTOR again and an hour ago when I found the Star Map for Korriban, Uthar Wynn stated Naga Sadow as the greatest of the sith lords.
And Uthar Wynn a master of the Korriban Accademy but nothing really important could know better then the people that wrote TOTJ, Kreia a sith Lord of incredible power and skill who studied Malachor V for anything between 5 and 8 years?? (thats more then Uthar his time on the Dark Side) and dozens of other people?
Also you have to remember Uthar is a Sith that applaudes combat and the will to fight, Ragnos did not have this. Sadow this, making Sadow greater in his eyes. Greater but not more powerful.
Also Sadow was more then willing to go against what was said by Ragnos even before he had support, he started fighting Kressh. Ragnos broke them up he used a trick and got the support anyhow. Meaning he was willing to go against Ragnos even before he had support of the Sith Lords...And all of those Sith Lords also went against Marka Ragnos, which they wouldn't have done if they respected him as much as you say.
And if they all didn't go against them because the others didn't then those guys would have been big fat idiots. Because apparantly most of them were more then willing to betray Ragnos, explain this.
Originally posted by Wesker
Uthar Wynn is also a moron. If Sadow was "greater" than Ragnos, and "greater" in this case obviously meant "better at combat", than Sadow would have killed Ragnos years ago, murdered Ludo, and ruled unchallenged. He didn't.And KOTOR does not overrule TOTJ, especially when Random Ignorant Sith Wannabe Wynn says so. The Mandalorian on Dxun says that Freedan Nadd was "A greater terror" than Revan and Malak. Should I just assume he can pwn anything?
You cannot disregard the opinions of people like these and then use hearsay as evidence that Ragnos was the greatest. I don't think hearsay is a valid argument at all and I was only bringing it up to disprove your point about what people have said about Ragnos to be evidence of his power.