Marka Ragnos vs NJO Luke and DN Luke

Originally posted by Numan
You cannot disregard the opinions of people like these and then use hearsay as evidence that Ragnos was the greatest. I don't think hearsay is a valid argument at all and I was only bringing it up to disprove your point about what people have said about Ragnos to be evidence of his power.

I think you're defective or something.

The omniscient narrator proclaims Marka Ragnos as The Dark Lord of Dark Lords of the Sith. The so-called "hearsay" you're accusing us of is from the narrator and, in essence, the creator of Marka Ragnos. You're giving us your opinion and a quote from a KOTOR character who was too stupid to know that his SIC was plotting against him.

"And if they all didn't go against them because the others didn't then those guys would have been big fat idiots. Because apparantly most of them were more then willing to betray Ragnos, explain this."

In my opinion it was the nature of the sith to follow a great leader. Naga Sadow was able to manipulate them and Ragnos was long dead so they probably didn't even think for one second that they were basically betraying Ragnos.

Originally posted by Numan
Still, hearsay is not good enough evidence. She cannot possibly know enough about ragnos and the other ancient sith lords to make an informed decision.

2 things

1.) Respond to my post

2.) She could have studied them for 8 years and based on the things she mentions she sure as hell spend a lot of time studying the Ancient Sith Lords, she is far more informed about this matter then Uthar Wynn, and the guy that created Ragnos knows a hell of a lot more then Uther Wynn does.

The narrartor seemed more Limited 3rd, or 3rd.

Originally posted by Numan
"And if they all didn't go against them because the others didn't then those guys would have been big fat idiots. Because apparantly most of them were more then willing to betray Ragnos, explain this."

In my opinion it was the nature of the sith to follow a great leader. Naga Sadow was able to manipulate them and Ragnos was long dead so they probably didn't even think for one second that they were basically betraying Ragnos.

IMO...

Your oppinion does not hold up against what is said by a lot of other people, in game story tellers and other people who could know. The Sith ideal is to overthrow the one that leads you.

The Sith do not look for a great leader let me try to explain so you will understand.

[list]
[*]Marka Ragnos ruled over the Sith for a hundred years
[*]Naga Sadow hated him, he didn't respect him and went against him right after he died.
[*]The other Sith didn't respect him either because they were willing to join Naga Sadow
[*]Some didn't want to join Sadow but not because of respect for Ragnos but because they believed his claims.
[*]If the mayority of the Sith does not respect Ragnos, and does not believe his claims he would not be a good leader. Why not?
[*]Put Julius Caesar in command of a nation now, famed leader great leader he would suck as a leader now because people don't agree with him. Ergo you are only a good leader when people agree with you.
[*]People did not agree with Ragnos, most betrayed him after he died. So he was not a good leader.
[*]If you are not respected and your oppinion isn't trusted, but people still follow you then that means you have something that they do not have.
[*]Seeing as the Sith were more then able to provide for their own food weapons clothes and living quarters and money and ships and troops, there can only be one thing Ragnos had they did not have. [*]An awesome control of the Dark Side, incredible physical strength and they were not a god amongst gods...
[/list]

Get it now?

Originally posted by Wesker
I think you're defective or something.

The omniscient narrator proclaims Marka Ragnos as The Dark Lord of Dark Lords of the Sith. The so-called "hearsay" you're accusing us of is from the narrator and, in essence, the creator of Marka Ragnos. You're giving us your opinion and a quote from a KOTOR character who was too stupid to know that his SIC was plotting against him.

Firstly this is the first time that the "omniscient narrator" stating this was brought to my attention and I'm going to need some proof. Secondly even if the narrator said that, it is still not good enough. You can interpret what "The Dark Lords of Dark Lords" implies about Ragnos in many different ways. It's too vague and could be referring to a number of things besides ragnos' power. His leadership perhaps, or maybe because of the fact that he ruled for so long - again implying that he was a good leader.

Originally posted by Numan
Firstly this is the first time that the "omniscient narrator" stating this was brought to my attention and I'm going to need some proof. Secondly even if the narrator said that, it is still not good enough. You can interpret what "The Dark Lords of Dark Lords" implies about Ragnos in many different ways. It's too vague and could be referring to a number of things besides ragnos' power. His leadership perhaps, or maybe because of the fact that he ruled for so long - again implying that he was a good leader.

Again respond to my posts, so far you have ignored both of them...

"I'm going to need some proof?" I thought you said you had the comics right there? Lying, perhaps?

Numan, fishy is right. Nobody respected him but they followed him. In the absense of respect there is fear, they followed him because they were afraid of him. Why were they afraid of him? Because he was more powerful than any of them or maybe all of them, otherwise they would have joined forces to take him out.

Originally posted by Fishy
IMO...

Your oppinion does not hold up against what is said by a lot of other people, in game story tellers and other people who could know. The Sith ideal is to overthrow the one that leads you.

The Sith do not look for a great leader let me try to explain so you will understand.

[list]
[*]Marka Ragnos ruled over the Sith for a hundred years
[*]Naga Sadow hated him, he didn't respect him and went against him right after he died.
[*]The other Sith didn't respect him either because they were willing to join Naga Sadow
[*]Some didn't want to join Sadow but not because of respect for Ragnos but because they believed his claims.
[*]If the mayority of the Sith does not respect Ragnos, and does not believe his claims he would not be a good leader. Why not?
[*]Put Julius Caesar in command of a nation now, famed leader great leader he would suck as a leader now because people don't agree with him. Ergo you are only a good leader when people agree with you.
[*]People did not agree with Ragnos, most betrayed him after he died. So he was not a good leader.
[*]If you are not respected and your oppinion isn't trusted, but people still follow you then that means you have something that they do not have.
[*]Seeing as the Sith were more then able to provide for their own food weapons clothes and living quarters and money and ships and troops, there can only be one thing Ragnos had they did not have. [*]An awesome control of the Dark Side, incredible physical strength and they were not a god amongst gods...
[/list]

Get it now?

1. This shows that he was a great leader and inspired many followers.
2. Naga Sadow saw an oppurtunity with Gav and Jori. It wasn't because Sadow died.
3. The other Sith did not join Naga Sadow because they didn't respect him but because Sadow manipulated them.
4. These were people who shared the same ideals as Ragnos and Ludo so it is likely they respected him. You have no proof that they didn't respect him and the only clear proof was that they were allies of Kressh concerning his dispute with Sadow.
5. this is not relavent and you are just stalling so I am not goin to answer that.
6. Again slightly irrelavent and wrong. A great leader is a leader who accomplishes much for his/her empire/army etc.
7. We alrady cleared up the fact that nobody betrayed him.
8. If you are talking about Ragnos, you are completely wrong because he was respected.
9. This is terrible reasoning. Great leadership that gave way to a Golden Age of Sith was what he had.

Get it now?

What does "Ruling with an iron fist" mean to you?

Originally posted by Wesker
"I'm going to need some proof?" I thought you said you had the comics right there? Lying, perhaps?

I downloaded them so they have some stuff missing such as comments from the narrator.

Originally posted by tdtd
Numan, fishy is right. Nobody respected him but they followed him. In the absense of respect there is fear, they followed him because they were afraid of him. Why were they afraid of him? Because he was more powerful than any of them or maybe all of them, otherwise they would have joined forces to take him out.

You still don't have proof.

Yeah, that would explain more than a few gaps in your knowledge, Numan. Arguing from ignorance is a debating sin.

lol

Originally posted by Wesker
Yeah, that would explain more than a few gaps in your knowledge, Numan. Arguing from ignorance is a debating sin.

Just like when you said Odan-Urr felt Ragnos' death throught the force. Maybe you should take your own advice geek.

Sure thing poindexter.. I want my homework done by 7..

Originally posted by Numan
Just like when you said Odan-Urr felt Ragnos' death throught the force. Maybe you should take your own advice geek.

So he didn't feel Ragnos' death through the force?

And really... Geek? What are you, 10 years old?

Look you loser, that's not funny. Get smarter if you want to debate against me and get wittier if you want to make fun of me.

We have provided lots of prove Numan, so far you have speculation... In your reply to me, all you give is answers based on speculation..

1. This shows that he was a great leader and inspired many followers.

Or it shows that he was so damned powerful that nobody dared to move against him for more then a hundred years... When have you ever heard of a leader respected enough to last for a 100 years? Nobody was that popular.

2. Naga Sadow saw an oppurtunity with Gav and Jori. It wasn't because Sadow died.

He started his idea of conquest right after Ragnos died, he claimed the title of Dark Lord right away and wanted to go to war right away... He didn't just learn of an oppurtinity.

3. The other Sith did not join Naga Sadow because they didn't respect him but because Sadow manipulated them.

Sadow manipulated them after he was told by Ragnos (who everybody feared) that attacking the republic was foolish. He made them believe the republic was attacking them and instead of listening to Ragnos like Kressh did and they would have done if they respected him as much as you claim they followed Sadow to war.

4. These were people who shared the same ideals as Ragnos and Ludo so it is likely they respected him. You have no proof that they didn't respect him and the only clear proof was that they were allies of Kressh concerning his dispute with Sadow.

Except for the fact thats exactly what everybody says about them and that time.

5. this is not relavent and you are just stalling so I am not goin to answer that.

Do so anyways, you clearly aren't able to answer it.

6. Again slightly irrelavent and wrong. A great leader is a leader who accomplishes much for his/her empire/army etc.

and what would those accomplishments be? A leader that today would destroy 6 million jews to get jobs that would invade all of Europe to get more lands for its people would not be considered good, 60 years ago a big part of a country and many people from other country's considered just that good. Again if a leader is not respected then he can do whatever he wants but it will not be seen as good.

7. We alrady cleared up the fact that nobody betrayed him.

No you haven't... almost everybody went against what he said, thats treason... Especially if they respect and love him as much as you claim.

8. If you are talking about Ragnos, you are completely wrong because he was respected.

Unsupported logical fallacy going against what is said by numerous sources and the people who invented him. Do you have any prove?

9. This is terrible reasoning. Great leadership that gave way to a Golden Age of Sith was what he had.

Terrible reasoning? Its exactly the reason everybody with cannon authority has given us.

Now you start proving Ragnos was respected amongst his followers, you prove that the Sith didn't follow their own ideal of the strongest must leadm you prove that Ragnos only ruled because he was loved and not powerful, you prove that killing Simus does not make him powerful, you prove that he was more popular then Simus when he took of Simus his head or body depending on how you look on it. You prove that Sadow respected him like the others, and most importantly you prove that Ragnos who is described as a god amongst gods and the most powerful Sith ever is not by showing us prove that Sadow and or Kressh are more powerful.

STart proving things.