Originally posted by Fishy
We have provided lots of prove Numan, so far you have speculation... In your reply to me, all you give is answers based on speculation..[b]1. This shows that he was a great leader and inspired many followers.
Or it shows that he was so damned powerful that nobody dared to move against him for more then a hundred years... When have you ever heard of a leader respected enough to last for a 100 years? Nobody was that popular.
2. Naga Sadow saw an oppurtunity with Gav and Jori. It wasn't because Sadow died.
He started his idea of conquest right after Ragnos died, he claimed the title of Dark Lord right away and wanted to go to war right away... He didn't just learn of an oppurtinity.
3. The other Sith did not join Naga Sadow because they didn't respect him but because Sadow manipulated them.
Sadow manipulated them after he was told by Ragnos (who everybody feared) that attacking the republic was foolish. He made them believe the republic was attacking them and instead of listening to Ragnos like Kressh did and they would have done if they respected him as much as you claim they followed Sadow to war.
4. These were people who shared the same ideals as Ragnos and Ludo so it is likely they respected him. You have no proof that they didn't respect him and the only clear proof was that they were allies of Kressh concerning his dispute with Sadow.
Except for the fact thats exactly what everybody says about them and that time.
5. this is not relavent and you are just stalling so I am not goin to answer that.
Do so anyways, you clearly aren't able to answer it.
6. Again slightly irrelavent and wrong. A great leader is a leader who accomplishes much for his/her empire/army etc.
and what would those accomplishments be? A leader that today would destroy 6 million jews to get jobs that would invade all of Europe to get more lands for its people would not be considered good, 60 years ago a big part of a country and many people from other country's considered just that good. Again if a leader is not respected then he can do whatever he wants but it will not be seen as good.
7. We alrady cleared up the fact that nobody betrayed him.
No you haven't... almost everybody went against what he said, thats treason... Especially if they respect and love him as much as you claim.
8. If you are talking about Ragnos, you are completely wrong because he was respected.
Unsupported logical fallacy going against what is said by numerous sources and the people who invented him. Do you have any prove?
9. This is terrible reasoning. Great leadership that gave way to a Golden Age of Sith was what he had.
Terrible reasoning? Its exactly the reason everybody with cannon authority has given us.
Now you start proving Ragnos was respected amongst his followers, you prove that the Sith didn't follow their own ideal of the strongest must leadm you prove that Ragnos only ruled because he was loved and not powerful, you prove that killing Simus does not make him powerful, you prove that he was more popular then Simus when he took of Simus his head or body depending on how you look on it. You prove that Sadow respected him like the others, and most importantly you prove that Ragnos who is described as a god amongst gods and the most powerful Sith ever is not by showing us prove that Sadow and or Kressh are more powerful.
STart proving things. [/B]
I don't need to provide proof. All I need to do is to point out your lack of it and disprove what you pass off as evidence. You have not provided any proof and my speculation has been more likely than yours. The problem is everybody around here is a Ragnos fanboy and people who have been here the longest have used your beliefs such as this and used your unearned reputation to make it law. And you call yourselves good debaters.
Originally posted by Numan
I don't need to provide proof. All I need to do is to point out your lack of it and disprove what you pass off as evidence. You have not provided any proof and my speculation has been more likely than yours. The problem is everybody around here is a Ragnos fanboy and people who have been here the longest have used your beliefs such as this and used your unearned reputation to make it law. And you call yourselves good debaters.
Why don't you need to prove anything? You are the one going against given quotes and what is accepted, if you wish to argue otherwise then prove up or accept you are wrong.
Originally posted by Numan
You are quite dumb aren't you. I don't need to prove anything because you have not proven anything. Disproving your assumptions is enough in this debate. Anyhow I have to go to bed now so I can continue proving you wrong tomorrow.
You haven't proven anything.. Or disproven anything..
You just stated your own assumption to argue against our assumption, which is in fact created by what we know about Sith society. Your assumption goes against the given facts and quotes about the Sith and Ragnos... So you need to prove up that those things are wrong. That the people who say Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful were wrong, and you need to prove that the Sith society was different in those times then it was only 2 or 3 Sith Lords later when becoming The Dark Lord was all that mattered.
Originally posted by DE Calvin
The narrartor seemed more Limited 3rd, or 3rd.
Is that why he constantly pans back and forth between Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Gav and Jori, Empress Teta, and Odan-Urr?
How many 3rd persons is that?
Originally posted by Numan
Firstly this is the first time that the "omniscient narrator" stating this was brought to my attention and I'm going to need some proof. Secondly even if the narrator said that, it is still not good enough. You can interpret what "The Dark Lords of Dark Lords" implies about Ragnos in many different ways. It's too vague and could be referring to a number of things besides ragnos' power. His leadership perhaps, or maybe because of the fact that he ruled for so long - again implying that he was a good leader.
The two of them bow to his spirit. It's there, it's conclusive, they show fear and subordination.
And Odan-Urr didn't feel Marka Ragnos' passing? Then how come I have this little scan here where Odan-Urr is awaken from a nightmare and sees Marka Ragnos' spirit?
Oh wait, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Listen, the omniscient narrator says the exact words:
"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful."
Yes, 2 definitives. Not to mention later sources mention how he has "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the dark side."
Freedon Nadd approaches Exar and mentions that there is "one above [him]" in reference to Marka Ragnos. This is the guy that doesn't seem to take crap from anybody.
Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh are shown making several maneuvers trying to gain power.
Ludo even usurps the title of Dark Lord when Naga leaves for the republic. That's backstabbing. In fact, they even "duel" for the title of Dark Lord. It's clear, they FIGHT for the title of dark lord. The fact Marka Ragnos did not get defeated even on his deathbed is truly remarkable.
In JA, his scepter, an integral part of the game's storyline and depicted in the cutscenes, has the power to raze temples and suck force from entire planets, and imbue non-force sensitives with force powers in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion.
Sorry, it's definitive. The Sith are a martial, power first society.
Do I need to copy and paste the Sith code for you? The last line even says they value power first and foremost. Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful. He "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist." Then you have dozens of lines in KotOR supporting his power. You see him crown Exar and Ulic, you see Freedon Nadd admitting his inferiority, you see Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh bowing before him. You see JA Luke pissing his pants and saying they need the "entire Jedi Academy" to "try" to stop Marka Ragnos.
I don't know why you are talking out of your ass, but the opposition has proved his abilities. No one said they can place exactly how strong he is, but they have shown without question that he has never been depicted with an equal.
Originally posted by Numan
You are quite dumb aren't you. I don't need to prove anything because you have not proven anything. Disproving your assumptions is enough in this debate. Anyhow I have to go to bed now so I can continue proving you wrong tomorrow.
Since when? You haven't disproved an assumption. You have answered it with another assumption.
"... but Ragnos COULD HAVE BEEN a master diplomat and have led the Sith through diplomacy."
Too bad that assumption has been trumped numerous times, and you are just too silly to see it.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Is that why he constantly pans back and forth between Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Gav and Jori, Empress Teta, and Odan-Urr?How many 3rd persons is that?
The two of them bow to his spirit. It's there, it's conclusive, they show fear and subordination.
And Odan-Urr didn't feel Marka Ragnos' passing? Then how come I have this little scan here where Odan-Urr is awaken from a nightmare and sees Marka Ragnos' spirit?
Oh wait, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Listen, the omniscient narrator says the exact words:
"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful."
Yes, 2 definitives. Not to mention later sources mention how he has "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the dark side."
Freedon Nadd approaches Exar and mentions that there is "one above [him]" in reference to Marka Ragnos. This is the guy that doesn't seem to take crap from anybody.
Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh are shown making several maneuvers trying to gain power.
Ludo even [b]usurps
the title of Dark Lord when Naga leaves for the republic. That's backstabbing. In fact, they even "duel" for the title of Dark Lord. It's clear, they FIGHT for the title of dark lord. The fact Marka Ragnos did not get defeated even on his deathbed is truly remarkable.In JA, his scepter, an integral part of the game's storyline and depicted in the cutscenes, has the power to raze temples and suck force from entire planets, and imbue non-force sensitives with force powers in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion.
Sorry, it's definitive. The Sith are a martial, power first society.
Do I need to copy and paste the Sith code for you? The last line even says they value power first and foremost. Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful. He "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist." Then you have dozens of lines in KotOR supporting his power. You see him crown Exar and Ulic, you see Freedon Nadd admitting his inferiority, you see Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh bowing before him. You see JA Luke pissing his pants and saying they need the "entire Jedi Academy" to "try" to stop Marka Ragnos.
I don't know why you are talking out of your ass, but the opposition has proved his abilities. No one said they can place exactly how strong he is, but they have shown without question that he has never been depicted with an equal.
Since when? You haven't disproved an assumption. You have answered it with another assumption.
"... but Ragnos COULD HAVE BEEN a master diplomat and have led the Sith through diplomacy."
Too bad that assumption has been trumped numerous times, and you are just too silly to see it. [/B]
Holy shit... QED!
That's the most comprehensive, complete argument for Ragnos' uberness I've ever seen, complete with scans. Numan, you are pwned.