Scarlet Witch vs Adam Warlock(w/IG.) inside 616 universe

Originally posted by LordKaos
How can you destroy Chaos by making Chaos? And then how can you destroy Order by piecing together the chaos you supposedly created into something ordered? And AOA became a reality after the fact, when it was happening it was 616. Which leaves open the question why didn't Roma appear then, I think it's because it was beyond her scope of influence. Reality during AOA was being destroyed because the Phoenix never became Jean Grey to fix M'Kraan. you figure the omniversal guardian could fix that, but her father before could not even make her necessary without Phoenix Force.

Any abstract can be overrided by sufficiently overwhelming power. Essentially, you can "kill" Death if you have enough power. Beyonder did it, Thanos did it. All those universes that were destroyed - it was the death of Death. So it's certainly possible to out-chaos Chaos.

AOA didn't become a reality after the fact - we just spent several months following that adventures of that divergent reality. After the saga ended, we went back to following 616, but AOA went on as normal, just like 616 went on as normal even while AOA was happening. We just can't follow two realities at once.

As for Roma - remember, her role is to guard the omniverse. AOA was threatened, and the M'Kraan Crystal was in trouble, but it wasn't actively destroying multiple universes. So I imagine she was going to wait until things reached critical mass - the way she waited until the last moment here. There's no reason why AOA would be out of her influence, but 616 countless other universes are within her influence.

Chaos and order are all perspectives of time expansion .... contingency conquers alll !!!!! 🙂

The universe picked up right after AOA, if he had not actually changed his time line and created a divergent one then M'Kraan would have never been bothered, as you said there have been other time travelers who attempted to meddle with time. Roma could hardly handle the Adversary.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Chaos and order are all perspectives of time expansion .... contingency conquers alll !!!!! 🙂

Now, Yahman LOOKS like he's trolling, but he's actually speaking true. Both Chaos and Order are bound by causality. If someone can control causality, they can control chaos and order more fundamentally than either Chaos or Order.

Originally posted by demigawd
Now, Yahman LOOKS like he's trolling, but he's actually speaking true. Both Chaos and Order are bound by causality. If someone can control causality, they can control chaos and order more fundamentally than either Chaos or Order.

Chaos and Order are side effects of causality !!!!!!!! Both are juts human perspectives ... read Other Worlds , its a great book. Its suggests that dark matter maybe energy running backwards in time i.e. from chaos to order ! 🙂

Originally posted by LordKaos
The universe picked up right after AOA, if he had not actually changed his time line and created a divergent one then M'Kraan would have never been bothered, as you said there have been other time travelers who attempted to meddle with time. Roma could hardly handle the Adversary.

Roma's personal power isn't impressive. Her power is in her role - it's in her jurisdiction to destroy entire realities with the Celestial Nullifier, but naturally she wouldn't use it to beat somebody up.

In every alternate reality the M'Kraan Crystal affair has been settled. Otherwise it would be a threat in every universe where there's a crack in the Crystal or no Phoenix.

The universe didn't pick up after AOA - just our following of their storiess. I mean, if you're saying AOA is an altered 616, then HOW did it end up becoming its own universe?

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Chaos and Order are side effects of causality !!!!!!!! Both are juts human perspectives ... read Other Worlds , its a great book. Its suggests that dark matter maybe energy running backwards in time i.e. from chaos to order ! 🙂

Something about you reminds me of Whirly sometimes...

Originally posted by demigawd
Roma's personal power isn't impressive. Her power is in her role - it's in her jurisdiction to destroy entire realities with the Celestial Nullifier, but naturally she wouldn't use it to beat somebody up.

In every alternate reality the M'Kraan Crystal affair has been settled. Otherwise it would be a threat in every universe where there's a crack in the Crystal or no Phoenix.

The universe didn't pick up after AOA - just our following of their storiess. I mean, if you're saying AOA is an altered 616, then HOW did it end up becoming its own universe?

Scarlet witch beats everyone short of the L.T. and the phoenix , both of whom apparently exist outside contigency. This may apply to the Secret wArs beyonder aswell i.e.

Galactus ; 'This power exists outside the known multi universe'

Originally posted by demigawd
Something about you reminds me of Whirly sometimes...

The fact he is incredibly intelligent yet mildly Dyslexic and British!! It's common! I've read it Yahs but I am off to bed now!

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Scarlet witch beats everyone short of the L.T. and the phoenix , both of whom apparently exist outside contigency. This may apply to the Secret wArs beyonder aswell i.e.

Galactus ; 'This power exists outside the known multi universe'

The Phoenix Force *may* exist outside of contingency, but any host/avatar does not, and given that Phoenix only combats people with a host, that puts any host below Wanda in power.

Originally posted by demigawd
Something about you reminds me of Whirly sometimes...

😂 .... he's my ying to yang (or however you spell it).

Or it maybe the smilies ? Dont bring it up wiv G.S though !

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The fact he is incredibly intelligent yet mildly Dyslexic and British!! It's common! I've read it Yahs but I am off to bed now!

I feel like Perry White seeing Clark Kent and Superman side-by-side, not realizing that it's really Martian Manhunter...

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
😂 .... he's my ying to yang (or however you spell it).

Or it maybe the smilies ? Dont bring it up wiv G.S though !

Hmm...

Originally posted by demigawd
Hmm...

Too many beers !!!!!! .... anyway Wanda takes it , Bendis was on the rightr lines making her a 'big problem' .... but it should have been more Beyonder secret wars rather than Nick Furry secret wars if you know what i mean ??????

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Too many beers !!!!!! .... anyway Wanda takes it , Bendis was on the rightr lines making her a 'big problem' .... but it should have been more Beyonder secret wars rather than Nick Furry secret wars if you know what i mean ??????

Hey, have you and Whirly ever debated anything? Just curious.

I think I've been monitoring this site for too long today. Productivity has gone down.

I won't be around tomorrow, since I'll be traveling to another studio location, so I wanted to spend as much time as possible on this subject today before I move on, but GS was only on for a couple of hours today. 🙁

Ah well, g'night ya'll. See you in a few days...

causality is an after effect of probability (chaos and order) you cannot have cause or effect without introducing some agent of one of the two. It became a world of it's own because creatures from AOA used the shards of the crystal to escape 20 years into 616 past, thus fixing the broken timeline and keeping their own going. M'Kraan is a nexus to all realities, it threatened everything, but only in 616 did D'ken get as far as he did, without Phoenix to fix it everything would been destroyed, when 616 was repaired there was no more danger to any reality from the nexus wave thus AOA survived.

Originally posted by LordKaos
causality is an after effect of probability (chaos and order) you cannot have cause or effect without introducing some agent of one of the two. It became a world of it's own because creatures from AOA used the shards of the crystal to escape 20 years into 616 past, thus fixing the broken timeline and keeping their own going. M'Kraan is a nexus to all realities, it threatened everything, but only in 616 did D'ken get as far as he did, without Phoenix to fix it everything would been destroyed, when 616 was repaired there was no more danger to any reality from the nexus wave thus AOA survived.

'causality is an after effect of probability'

Dont try and mock me with such audacity ..... Thomas Aquinas mate , Google him !

Originally posted by demigawd
Got it. That was a gap in my knowledge there. Well done.

I think the whole purpose of these Great Powers is to help put the universe/multiverse/omniverse in working order. But with that comes the understanding that there are certain functions that they maintain and certain functions that they yield.

That means, essentially, that while Eternity could clearly beat Roma in a fight, by function, Roma has the jurisdiction to just...end Eternity if in her judgment she felt it was necessary to preserve the omniverse. And Eternity would have to accept that. That she is mortal or of the mortal plane doesn't matter in that context.

So Roma has the authority to destroy all the Cosmics and Abstracts in 616 universe, and was going to exercise that authority in an effort to defeat the source of the Chaos Wave (she never realized it was Wanda) - in that sense, it actually shows that Wanda is more dangerous than the Infinity Gauntlet or the Beyonder or Dark Phoenix, or possibly even HOTU.

Does that make more sense?

Well, when beings have "infinite" power, they all pretty much have the same basic attack - "Begone". AW has that power and Wanda has that power. So realistically, the only thing you have to go on is who exercised that power better, more completely and more unchallengably. From feats, I'd say Wanda has shown it.

It's a fair question. But Marvel doesn't define things by keeping other comicbook companies in mind. Historically, when the term "Omniversal Magistrix" was invented, a multiverse was defined as multiple dimensions of existence. So the 4th dimension is a "universe", Mephisto's realm is a "universe", the Beyonder's realm is a "universe", the microverse is a "universe", and all of those "universes" are part of the "multiverse", even though they're actually part of the same 616 Reality.

So when the term "Omniverse" was defined by Marvel, it was meant to include all of the multiverses in one.

We've since come to change some of the definitions signifnicantly. Mephisto's domain is now seen as a "dimension". The Beyonder's realm is now seen as a "pocket universe", and 4D and the Microverse are "planes of existence". The term "universe" is now interchangable with "reality", and that's what 616 and all its pocket universes and side dimensions and planes of existence is defined as - a single universe

In that sense, the "Omniverse" Roma watches over should more accurately be defined as "Multiverse" now, but the name stuck.

Either way, there are only two "courts" that have multiversal (transuniversal) jurisdiction - The Omniversal Magistrix (Roma, Opal) and The Living Tribunal. Everything else is responsible for its own universe.

In that sense, drawing the attention of the Omniversal Magistrix is more significant than getting a bunch of complaining Abstracts, as we saw in the Infinity Gauntlet. As LT said - the wielder of the IG replaces Eternity. He becomes the embodiment of that UNIVERSE. Presumably, anybody who can defeat Eternity (destroy a universe) can defeat the IG. That includes LT, the Infinites, Roma and SW.

That's another reason why I place SW higher up in the scale than the IG.

you mentioned infinites... to my knowledge they only appeared 1 time??? how would you know where or what there function is from that showing??? or have they appeared more than that? i'd like to know more about that, since what you said here makes sense i guess. i just read a different definition of "omniverse"... thanks for the info.

All causality means in it's most fundamental stage is that cause precedes effect. Inbetween that cause and effect is an infinite number of probable effects from any said cause. You step on an ant it should die, but sometimes by a twist of fate it keeps walking.

Originally posted by LordKaos
All causality means in it's most fundamental stage is that cause precedes effect. Inbetween that cause and effect is an infinite number of probable effects from any said cause. You step on an ant it should die, but sometimes by a twist of fate it keeps walking.

Therefore Causality is not an after effect of probaility !!!!!!!

There isnot an infinite number of probable outcomes as there are limitations ! E.G the 'Unmoved Mover'