Originally posted by LordKaos
something was escaping the hole, all the matter and energy from what was on the other side. You know a simple hole in the ceiling will let all the rain in, it's not that hole that started the damage, but the rain on the other side that ****s up your houseand causes the hole to get bigger letting in more and more rain until Meggan stops the rain while her husband and his friends plug it up.
Ah yes, but where did the rain come from?
Originally posted by leonidas
sounds like a wave -- literally. a small crack in a dam split (the 616 dimensional wall) and the water came out. as the crack grew, more and of the water came forth from the river. like the chaos wave, the water wave grabbed up everything and destroyed everything, until it was finished and at the end everything was 'one' -- a single vast ocean.the question seems to be where did this 'river' originate? i liked gs's earlier analogy about the yodeller who inadvertantly causes an avalanche that wrecks a town. but gs, where did the energy originate that started the avalanche? it must be the yodeller -- ie -- wanda. right?
Right! A hole between realities isn't unique - in fact, they're fairly common - especially in the swamps. Read any number of issues of Man-Thing.
What's unique isn't that there's a hole between realities, what's unique is that this time, something is coming through that hole that hasn't before. It's chaos energy. Why hasn't it come through the holes in reality before? Because there wasn't chaos energy before. Why wasn't there chaos energy before?
Because Wanda wasn't making changes and generating the energy.
THAT is what separates *this* hole from holes pre-HoM.
Does that make sense?
Think of it as the butterfly effect, I hope you're familiar with that cause i really don't feel like explaining it. Wanda flapped her wings and the wind from it gathered up all the energy around and helped push it through the hole, she created the pin that poked a hole in reality, she did not sustain it, it was self perpetuating. I'm going on a beer run, i can't wait until your next reply as this some of the best conversation i have ever had here. Thank you
Originally posted by LordKaos
Think of it as the butterfly effect, I hope you're familiar with that cause i really don't feel like explaining it. Wanda flapped her wings and the wind from it gathered up all the energy around and helped push it through the hole, she created the pin that poked a hole in reality, she did not sustain it, it was self perpetuating. I'm going on a beer run, i can't wait until your next reply as this some of the best conversation i have ever had here. Thank you
But push what energy? The chaos energy, right? Where did the chaos energy come from? From Wanda.
If you were to poke a hole in reality TODAY, post-HoM - nothing would happen, it would just create another nexus. Why? Because there's no more chaos energy being generated because Wanda brought HoM to an end. Therefore, the energy *must* have originated with her.
I must say, it's a pleasure to have a nice, peaceful, insult-free discussion with someone.
*cough* GalacticStorm *cough*
but WAS it self propagating? did it actually expand as it moved on? it MUST have been expanding. after all, how could the chaos energy of a single universe, be enough to wipe out the multiverse? using my flood analogy -- a river couldn't flood the whole earth. for that to happen, the source must have been FAR larger than the river was. if wanda was the river, what allowed the flood to grow so large?
i think that's what gs is trying to say -- she started it, but once through, it was out of her control. how else can you explain the energy of one universe being enough to inundate the whole multiverse?
Originally posted by demigawd
But push what energy? The chaos energy, right? Where did the chaos energy come from? From Wanda.If you were to poke a hole in reality TODAY, post-HoM - nothing would happen, it would just create another nexus. Why? Because there's no more chaos energy being generated because Wanda brought HoM to an end. Therefore, the energy *must* have originated with her.
I must say, it's a pleasure to have a nice, peaceful, insult-free discussion with someone.
*cough* GalacticStorm *cough*
😂
anyway . . .
it seems you're under a not-wholly-true-assumptio though: you seem to be saying wanda generates this chaos energy. in fact, doesn't she manipulate it, as opposed to create it? the chaos energy is already there in the universe. her tampering punched a hole and allowed this excess energy to be set free, which somehow . . . expanded once it was free.
that might actually be a sort of comprise position between the 2 of you. she did create the hole, it wasn't HER power, but she COULD control it because it is chaos energy and she is capable of manipulating it -- unless it grew SO out of control that it was beyond her control?
hmmm . . . good for me! i steered a course between the 2 of you egomaniacs! no wonder you appointe dme leader of the jla!! 😄
Originally posted by leonidas
but WAS it self propagating? did it actually expand as it moved on? it MUST have been expanding. after all, how could the chaos energy of a single universe, be enough to wipe out the multiverse? using my flood analogy -- a river couldn't flood the whole earth. for that to happen, the source must have been FAR larger than the river was. if wanda was the river, what allowed the flood to grow so large?i think that's what gs is trying to say -- she started it, but once through, it was out of her control. how else can you explain the energy of one universe being enough to inundate the whole multiverse?
The chaos energy need not be the energy of a universe. It's energy generated by her reality manipulations. It's the energy that was actively maintaining the changes of the House of M. That energy has intent behind it. that's why Rachel and Psylocke were immediately changed the moment they entered 616 from the White Hot Room. They were hit by the chaos energy, and because they're 616 beings, they were changed according to Wanda's specificiations for them.
The problem happens when a tear in reality allows the chaos energy to escape. When the chaos energy escapes, and it hits other realities - what happens? Wanda's reality manipulations have intent for 616, but when it hits another universe, it's just...chaos. That's what causes the destruction - the fact that her chaos energy has no message for anything outside of 616, so instead of it conforming to her specifications, it just collapses.
Originally posted by leonidas
😂anyway . . .
it seems you're under a not-wholly-true-assumptio though: you seem to be saying wanda generates this chaos energy. in fact, doesn't she manipulate it, as opposed to create it? the chaos energy is already there in the universe. her tampering punched a hole and allowed this excess energy to be set free, which somehow . . . expanded once it was free.
that might actually be a sort of comprise position between the 2 of you. she did create the hole, it wasn't HER power, but she COULD control it because it is chaos energy and she is capable of manipulating it -- unless it grew SO out of control that it was beyond her control?
hmmm . . . good for me! i steered a course between the 2 of you egomaniacs! no wonder you appointe dme leader of the jla!! 😄
The reason we know that the chaos energy is coming from Wanda is because a tear in reality isn't sufficient cause for the end of the multiverse. Like I said in my previous post, there have been tears in reality before, and it didn't cause a tidal wave of destruction. What's different this time is the presence of chaos energy throughout the reality. It's chaos energy that didn't exist before, because it's what was creating the haze in Exiles, it's what Genis detected in Thunderbolts, and it's what immediately impacted Rachel and Psylocke once they re-entered reality.
EDIT - it's also the only reasonable explanation to your query - how could something that already exists (chaos energy) flood universe after universe after universe. Because Wanda's creating more and more of it, and it's leaking out of the reality, instead of being contained in that one reality.
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm not sure about that. it's pretty widely accepted (and has been stated by agatha harkness in-book) that she manipulates chaos energy/chaos magic. how can she 'create' it? energy wielders don't create energy, they manipulate it. why would wanda be different?
Ah, now you're getting old school with Wanda.
Dr. Strange said, "There's no such thing as chaos magic" in Avengers Disassembled. It was just a made up explanation for what Wanda does. But it's clear that there's no such thing as chaos MAGIC, it does mean that there's chaos energy. But its properties are unknown, which means anything goes for it.
*could* it be possible that she's manipulating chaos energy rather than generating it? Yes, but then that creates the limitation you're referring to where it should be impossible to flood multiple universes with energy that can't exceed the sum total of that universe.
More likely is that she's generating the energy, or at least is a conduit for it, the way Scott Summers is a conduit for an infinite amount of energy, or Hulk is a conduit for an infinite amount of strength.
Either way, being able to manipulate or generate chaos energy is ultimately irrelevant to the argument at hand. After all, reality 616 is no longer in a haze, but in many ways, we're still in the House of M - everything is as Wanda made it - no more mutants.
it was stated by Dr strange that chaos magic is not real, she does not generate chaos she manipulates it through the psionic energy she generates, like a telekinetic manipulates matter through the psionic energy they generate. Legion caused more devestation to all that is more then she did, because unlike most he was able to manipulate the time of his reality, not create or pull things from an alternate one.
Originally posted by LordKaos
it was stated by Dr strange that chaos magic is not real, she does not generate chaos she manipulates it through the psionic energy she generates, like a telekinetic manipulates matter through the psionic energy they generate. Legion caused more devestation to all that is more then she did, because unlike most he was able to manipulate the time of his reality, not create or pull things from an alternate one.
We don't know one way or the other whether she generates the chaos energy. All we do know is that the chaos energy was manipulated in such a way to break the walls between realities, flood the realities and destroy universe after universe, all of which is Wanda's doing.
There was no statement one way or the other about the origin of this energy. All we know is that with it, she can do ANYTHING.
Legion? Legion didn't do anything but change the past. Trevor Fritzroy, Bishop and Immortus/Kang all do that...
Originally posted by LordKaos
No Legion changed his history, the others come from other realites, Legion changed 616, Bishop has traveled to his time after the death of the Xmen it was still the same. Kang can't even control the amount of incarnations he has.
I don't understand what difference that makes. Anybody with a time machine can go back in time, kill somebody and change everything. That's not "reality manipulation" in that sense we're talking about.
Doom has a time machine - is he a reality manipulator?
time travelers create points of divergence when they alter time. Legion has been the only one to not do that when he altered the past, him and Phoenix of the white crown, but that is neither here nor there. Chaos is not an energy it's a state of being, Wanda can make things chaotic she cannot create chaos, because the universe already did. In the bigger picture of marvel abstracts this a contest between Lord Chaos (who has channeled his power through Wanda before) and Master Order.
But legion DID create a divergent timeline. Remember, AOA still technically exists today. Magneto is some kind of retired government worker there.
Chaos energy is just a name, it was coined by Lord Templar. It's not necessarily connected to the Abstract Chaos, and given that it functions outside of the universe, destroying both Chaos and Order in various other universes, I'd say that it's not something granted by Chaos or Order.
Originally posted by demigawd
But legion DID create a divergent timeline. Remember, AOA still technically exists today. Magneto is some kind of retired government worker there.Chaos energy is just a name, it was coined by Lord Templar. It's not necessarily connected to the Abstract Chaos, and given that it functions outside of the universe, destroying both Chaos and Order in various other universes, I'd say that it's not something granted by Chaos or Order.
Originally posted by The Ion
You're probably right though I would assume Busiek's original intent was to link it to Chaos and Order which is why Wanda was able to sense the problems with In-Betweener. Of course, I could be totally wrong. 🙂
Yeah, that WAS the original intent, but Strange ended up retconning it, or at least retconning the idea that it's "magical" in nature.
But that pretty much leaves chaos energy as a mystery. I'm inclined to believe that she's generating it, but it's not impossible to believe that perhaps she's pulling it extradimensionally, the way the Marvel bios usually say energy generators generate their energy. "psionically activated opening of an apature to access extradimensional energy in the form of concussive beams, yadda yadda yadda"
EDIT: But ultimately, it has no impact on the significance of her feat, or the power at her command.
How can you destroy Chaos by making Chaos? And then how can you destroy Order by piecing together the chaos you supposedly created into something ordered? And AOA became a reality after the fact, when it was happening it was 616. Which leaves open the question why didn't Roma appear then, I think it's because it was beyond her scope of influence. Reality during AOA was being destroyed because the Phoenix never became Jean Grey to fix M'Kraan. you figure the omniversal guardian could fix that, but her father before could not even make her necessary without Phoenix Force.