On a multiversal scale in which this debate operates there are an infinite amount of probable outcomes. Like you could probably stop posting immediately after I do in every thread I've been on tonight in the versus forum since I failed to mention your name in the thread you created, or you could burn in hell, or you could eat shit, or you could get an IM from the mate of your dreams and get married, etc... ad infinitum.
Originally posted by demigawd
As promised, I'm not going to go point by point with GS.All his basic bluster pretty much comes down to a few points, which I'll address here.
[b]1) Phoenix doesn't need a host to interact with the physical plane.
Untrue. All the examples you named were of Phoenix acting etherially. That even includes Le Bete Noir, who was a spiritual force who was punished by being given form. And don't tell me that it's not supported anywhere in the bio. Go back to my post about it - I quoted directly FROM the bio. [/B]
What a pile of faecal matter. Where on earth did you come up with that? "She was only acting etherally?" Come on Dem thats a bit ludicrous to be honest mate. 😉 When you can point out to me where that is stated or conclusively shown on panel then you can have that point. The crux of the matter is that in said instances Phoenix performed feats (one a true multiversal one) on the physical plane without a host body, prior to its much later intentions to find one for the crystal incident.
"Etherally?" 😕
Pssh "Etherally"?!! 😂
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Originally posted by demigawd
Is there some part of that you didn't understand?
No. It just didnt help your case given that in the same bio refers to instances where Phoenix acted on the physical plane without a host.
Originally posted by demigawd
[b]2) Phoenix doesn't physically overwhelm the host, only mentally
I'm not sure where this whole thing came from, or why you bothered devoting hundreds of words to the topic. I never specified whether the overwhelming is physical, mental, or spiritual. I just quoted the bio, which pretty clearly stated that the host ARE prone to being overwhelmed if given too much power. Again, I quoted her bio directly when saying so. What difference does it make HOW they're overwhelmed...just that the Phoenix is worried that they ARE overwhelmed. Even in your own scans, Jean says she dare not get too close to the Phoenix, or she'll be replaced.That alone pretty clearly means that any host is going to only have a fraction of the true power of the Phoenix Force.
You also posted a scan of someone being unable to mentally cope with the Phoenix power. ok....we know that. Not everybody can cope with the idea of a second consciousness digging around in their head. Not everybody has the willpower to wield a GL ring, either. It doesn't make the ring all-powerful just because it takes a "special person" to wield it.
Phoenix avatars = Green Lantern corps.[/B]
Not at all Demi. Youre completely missing the point. Jean never had a limit enforced on her power. That has never been stated to be the case for her anywhere on panel. That was merely the case for Rachel, although its stated that she has the potential to match her mother.
Jean as the human form of Phoenix is only limited by her strength of will and her imagination. There is no stated limit to the amount of power she wields as an avatar of the Phoenix consciousness. Jean as Phoenix has reached out across existence and telepathically saved all sentient life from eternal damnation in the previous universe, (yes Jean existed as Phoenix in the previous universe and the feats documented in the bio)
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Jean as Phoenix has contained the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, Jean as Phoenix has consciously reconstructed 616 atom by atom telekinetically. Id say the Jean persona can handle things just fine. 😉
The only time Jean hasnt been able to handle the burden was when she cut off her power and made herself vulnerable. Thats the crux of the matter. The bios talk of Jean not being able to handle the burden mentally AFTER she had erected her psychic circuit breakers, it says nothing of it being standard fare for a host. The bio says Dark Phoenix hungered for more power due to the limitations of ITS physical form. Not A physical form. Said limitations were self imposed by the Jean Grey persona. Your point is moot.
Originally posted by demigawd
[b]3) All of Phoenix's pwnages are easily explained awayYes, by the limitation of the hosts. Whether it's a mental limitation or a physical limitation, it's still a limitation brought on by the host. If the host is destroyed, that's it for the Phoenix.[/B]
Is it standard fare for Jean to erect psychic circuit breakers to shut off her phoenix power? ❌
Was said action responsible for virtually all the low showings youre trying to make a point from? ✅
The fact that Phoenix has only been defeated in a combat situation through self imposed limitations which dont come as standard for Phoenix says it all. You cant use that instance and treat it as something that will always happen with Jean, you have no evidence for that. Jean as Phoenix has performed feats beyond virtually all beings in Marvel, she has shown she can handle the power and wield it consciously at extremely high levels. You cant make a case against Jean with regards to limitations, Rachel on the other hand admittedly is a different story.
Originally posted by demigawd
[b]4) Wanda's chaos wave isn't hersRoma said it's originating from Earth 616. Meggan is standing on the other side of the breach, and seeing the chaos wave flowing from inside of Earth 616. [/B]
Hmmm 😉 :
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Not the case at all. Meggan runs through the breach and the chaos wave is on a trajectory towards the breach, towards 616. In the background you can clearly see Captain Britain staring through at Meggan and the approaching wave. Meggan even turns away from the wave to look back at Captain Britain. Youre conclusively incorrect.
It is not something thats flowing continually from 616. While it may have originated from Earth 616, its clearly not a constant spillage of power from Wanda. Wanda set something off. Be it through tapping into chaos energy and misusing it, or through ripping a hole via her amateur tamperings. Either way the chaos wave isnt something genertaed by Wanda, it isnt a constant spillage of her power from 616 across to other realities. The resultant destruction was triggered off by Wanda, not performed by Wanda. My yodling analogy suits this just fine. 😄
Wandas greatest feat is warping Earth 616 for definite and possibly the universe.
Greater than IG? ❌ not conclusively.
Originally posted by demigawd
When Rachael and Psylocke entered Earth 616, they were immediately re-programmed to fit into whatever Wanda's vision was. If it were just a regular altered reality, that wouldn't have happened. They were consumed by the chaos energy that was all over the 616 reality.
Why wouldnt it have happened? Because you say so? Unfortunately the comics dont tend to agree. Please refer to Kulan Gaths reality warp spell in both Avengers and Uncanny X-men. Stepping into its range has you immediately transformed to fit in with KG's vision.
They teleported on to Earth and so were obviously within Wandas range (as detailed by Roma to be "global"😉 and were transformed, so how is that proof that the energy was all over the 616 reality? 😕
Originally posted by demigawd
In Exiles, they said REALITY 616 was unavailable because of some type of blockage creating a haze they couldn't penetrate. Hmm...I wonder what that "haze" could be.
Distortions in space/time created by Wandas tamperings, doesnt necessarily mean Wanda warped the whole of 616 reality. She just set forces in motion which escalated out of control resulting in the chaos wave and the so called haze.
Originally posted by demigawd
It's pretty obvious there was a constant energy matrix eminating from the Earth that was altering the entire reality. Who could have generated that?
No it is not pretty obvious. Thats just wishful thinking for one who wishes to see Magneto and his children rise to prominence. Thats really not gonna happen. 😉
Originally posted by demigawd
[b]5) Wanda only altered the Earth.Um...Otherworld was affected. She reached into Dormammu's domain and yanked him out (DORMAMMAMU!!!). Clearly she's reached beyond the Earth.
Also, like I said, Exiles said the entire 616 reality was affected and unavailable. They ended up going in blind.
And in the scan I showed, we see planets crashing together, alien races, and Galactus.
No, it's not just the Earth.
Also, the idea that by altering Earth's history, she was able to, by extension, alter the history of the universe is interesting, but just brings up the philosophical point - if you can alter someone's history, aren't you altering THEM? Essentially, it IS of universal proportions, and you can make it so anytime you'd like just by altering history in any way you'd like. She made lifelong enemies into best friends. She created treaties and peace pacts and intergalactic wars all reach outcomes favorable to the people SHE wanted to win. Either way, it's speculation, and the additional evidence I cited all works in my favor.
Simple enough. [/B]
Ummmm. Wanda did only conclusively warp Earth. Other places were affected but they werent warped to fit in with her vision. Thats the difference. All we've seen conclusively on panel is that Earth 616 and all connected with her friends and family were warped.
You still have no proof that the chaos wave was generated by Wanda as opposed to something she triggerred. Romas description of it as a trans temporal tsunami set off by a "global alteration" supports the latter, as does the fact that the wave as seen in the previous scans was spinning out of control towards the breach not flowing from 616 out of the breach.
The destruction wasnt something Wanda personally brought about, it wasnt down to a personal exertion from Wanda. She set something off which you have no proof of being sustained or generated by Wanda. Its not a feat of hers. Simple as that.
Until her bio comes out in about 6 months you have nothing but your opinion to post. Keep it. It doesnt cut it here. 🙂
Originally posted by demigawd
What? None of that happened. It never said Phoenix destroyed the universe.
Phoenix condemned the universe to death by cutting off its entire future. It was on its last leg. As stated she'd cut it off from the megasystem (its "parent"😉 and she'd basically killed it hence it being described as a "badly wounded orphan universe"
She was advised by the consciousness to rectify this situation. She reconstructed it atom by atom in the palm of her hand (something the Consciousness said is no piece of cake even for a White Crown Phoenix) then she telepathically reached in and altered Scotts response to Emma ensuring the growth of a new future to replace the one she'd cut away. All in a days work for Ms Grey. 😄
Originally posted by demigawd
Also - Wanda pretty clearly was INDOORS, and as soon as Pietro was killed, her eyes lit up (while she was INDOORS) and THEN she busted out and went mad. Look at the images, man. You're the one with the scanner - show it to the public and we'll judge for ourselves.
Hmmm 😉 :
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I think the shouting and the big thuds as massive metal chunks hit the ground were a bit of a giveaway mate. Conclusively omniscient? Nuh-uh ❌
Originally posted by demigawd
Just because you say I didn't prove it (despite posting reasons and evidence over and over again) doesn't mean I haven't. I have. Read it again.
Not one shred of your evidence is conclusive. Its all open to interpretation and yet youre presenting yours as the be all and end all.
Not having it. 😉
Originally posted by demigawd
Erm,And all this struggle was even BEFORE the lattuce completely collapsed.
All powerful? I think not.
Additionally, it's clear that it's just the universe at stake. Nothing multiversal about it.
All that struggling just to contain a neutron galaxy?
You telling me the IG couldn't have contained it? HOTU couldn't have contained it? LT? Hell, Wanda's reality manipulation is so complete, SHE could have just willed the lattuce together, or manipulated time so that it never happened....
First attempt wasnt good enough. She focused and then got the job done. Thats the crux of the matter.
When the M'kraan crystal was first introduced it apparrently was just universal. This was a situation which later got retconned most notably in Uncanny X-men and AOA titles where it and the threat it represented became multiversal.
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Phoenixes feat got bumped up. Its all good. 😄
Originally posted by demigawd
Well, EVERYBODY is capable of interuniversal travel. The Exiles do it all the time. Since SW has shown the ability to punch holes in between realities, all she has to do is walk through that hole, like Meggan did. That's it...just walk through it and you are safe from the effects of the IG. Aunt May could do it.The difference is once the IG wielder leaves his universe, the IG is powerless. That's not the case with Wanda.
The Ultraverse is a part of Marvel and has been for a number of years now, with Black Knight and Sersis adventures in Ultraverse mentioned in their bios.
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Their encounter with Nemesis the sentient IG is canon. The IGs power can and has been applied in a reality outside of 616.
Heres a bio for Nemesis:
Originally posted by demigawd
The Phoenix Force *may* exist outside of contingency, but any host/avatar does not, and given that Phoenix only combats people with a host, that puts any host below Wanda in power.
If said host is formed from the Phoenix herself and is actually a part of the Phoenix as opposed to just a host then what you said just doesnt hold true. As stated on panel Jean Grey was created for the purpose of wielding the Phoenix Force. She is literally Phoenix in human form and has existed as Phoenix in the previous universe.
Youre speculating about Wandas power when all we know for definite is that she warped earth 616. Prove she personally did more and we'll go from there.
The chaos wave is not attributed to Wanda anywhere in the series. She triggered it. Thats all. All it did, all the destruction it caused is an after effect of Wandas machinations. She isnt responsible for it. Its not her feat.
Wandas greatest feats are warping earth 616 and teleporting Dormammu from his realm and getting him to do her bidding.
Multiversal? ❌
Greater than IG? ❌
holy crap. just when demi is on the verge of convincing me, you make your case and it seems solid too!
i really don't know what the hell to think about this wave. it doesn't seem quite right to me to think the wave was wanda's power though. seems if she were unleashing that much power unconsciously, there would be more evidence to support it. so where DID the energy of the wave originate? that is after all a LOT of energy. is she a conduit for chaos energy (as opposed to pure chaos which has been brought up previously)?
back to the thread -- i'm still not sure. if the wave was a by-product only of her tampering and not something she could control or generate at will, then perhaps her level of power IS below the IG. i wonder how her power affected or would have affected eternity, or if he could have stopped it? knowing eternity, and the jobber he is, probably not, but it seems there is no conclusive evidence to support this either way.
could the IG wielder have stepped in and made everything go back to the way it was, overriding sw's power? that seems more likely to me. after all, causality and probabilty ARE functions of reality -- and the IG grants the ultimate univerdal power over reality. seems reasonable to think the IG could reshape reality in the same ways wanda can if the wearer so chose. it is simply hard to for to credit that a mutant human can achieve a level of reality control ABOVE the ultimate level granted by the IG.
you guys keep getting me going back and forth. MUST. READ. HOM. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by leonidas
holy crap. just when demi is on the verge of convincing me, you make your case and it seems solid too!i really don't know what the hell to think about this wave. it doesn't seem quite right to me to think the wave was wanda's power though. seems if she were unleashing that much power unconsciously, there would be more evidence to support it. so where DID the energy of the wave originate? that is after all a LOT of energy. is she a conduit for chaos energy (as opposed to pure chaos which has been brought up previously)?
back to the thread -- i'm still not sure. if the wave was a by-product only of her tampering and not something she could control or generate at will, then perhaps her level of power IS below the IG. i wonder how her power affected or would have affected eternity, or if he could have stopped it? knowing eternity, and the jobber he is, probably not, but it seems there is no conclusive evidence to support this either way.
could the IG wielder have stepped in and made everything go back to the way it was, overriding sw's power? that seems more likely to me. after all, causality and probabilty ARE functions of reality -- and the IG grants the ultimate univerdal power over reality. seems reasonable to think the IG could reshape reality in the same ways wanda can if the wearer so chose. it is simply hard to for to credit that a mutant human can achieve a level of reality control ABOVE the ultimate level granted by the IG.
you guys keep getting me going back and forth. MUST. READ. HOM. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very objective Leo. You'd think if she was responsible for generating the chaos wave then at least somewhere in the entire series that would be mentioned. That is indeed a whole lot of power for her to not only be oblivious to generating but to suddenly be capable of producing.
I personally believe that if she does indeed tap into chaos energy(which i dispute) then the forces in 616 she shunted and amateurly applied escalated out of control and caused havoc in other realities. Theres no evidence that it was directly her power whatsoever. Comments by Roma and the scans of Meggan combatting the wave suggest that is the case. It wasnt something streaming out of the breach in 616's brane.
Another possibility is that it was set off by the tear in reality itself. Demis case about there being holes in reality which dont bring about such destruction is weak given that we dont the nature and origin of such holes. Theres a difference between generating a portal through space/time, or constructing a permanent gateway between realities and ripping a gaping hole in reality as a side effect of amateur reality manipulation.
Legions tamperings in the past caused a tear in reality which went on to affect the M'kraan crystal, slowly crystallising reality and would have eventually spread across the entire multiverse before Legions future tamperings were stopped. So theres precedent for a tear in reality unleashing cataclysmic, reality collapsing forces. 😉
This is my take on the chaos wave, when the first wall of reality was punctured the energy and matter of that reality began to bleed into another reality that was roughly the same size, as it filled up it pushed the matter and energy of the next energy up against the walls of another reality and when that wall broke the energy and matter (the chaos wave) that was building broke that barrier and rushed into the next one and this process happened to reality after reality. It was probably a gradual process at first, but you figure after the first few million realities it was like a tidal wave and that may be why it was sensed at the last minute in Otherworld.
except i'm not sure the energy and matter of our universe actually spread into an adjacent universe. after all, the matter and energy in OUR universe stayed in our universe -- ie -- it wasn't sucked into another universe. so . . . the escaping energy must have been coming from SOMEWHERE. but . . . where? i don't buy demi's idea that she was generating it. seems to me there would be evidence indicating that much energy coming from her. nor does it seem to fit that she is simply a conduit -- again, from what i can gather, the energy doesn't appear to be pouring out of her, unless it is subconscious, but even still i'd think there would be evidence of this.
so . . . where the hell did all this chaos energy come from?? if we can figure out where it came from, it might help decide whether it really was a manifestation of wanda's power (as demi claims) or not (as gs claims).
Exactly. Theres no conclusive evidence supporting either mine or Demis interpretations. With that in mind all talk of SW having achieved a multiversal level feat or being beyond Eternity is just speculation, it cant be proven. All she can be credited for without a doubt is warping earth 616 and teleporting Dormammu from his pocket dimension into the main reality and controlling him. Very powerful, however not as powerful as Demis assumptions indicate.
that certainly appears to be the case from all i've seen and read so far . . .
but what about . . . galactus's foot and this 'otherworld' demi keeps going on about? aren't these affects beyond earth? or are you saying they were affected only by the wave, and since we don't know whether the wave was wanda's we can't say SHE actually affected them . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
that certainly appears to be the case from all i've seen and read so far . . .but what about . . . galactus's foot and this 'otherworld' demi keeps going on about? aren't these affects beyond earth? or are you saying they were affected only by the wave, and since we don't know whether the wave was wanda's we can't say SHE actually affected them . . .
Precisely ✅
Plus given the fact all those figures were from alternate realities and the characters we know were all wearing different costumes to what we're accustomed to, how do we conclusively that, that was Galactus' foot? We dont. Couldve been Atlas for all we know 😄
atlas? 😂
not sure i'd go THAT far -- common sense can be applied to a certain degree, gs -- but the issue of whether the wave was her power or not certainly is important to this whole discussion, and i'm not sure we can or should simply assume, or infer, as demi was doing, that the wave WAS her power. and i don't think there is anyway to know whether wanda's power could or couldn't be overridden by the IG. i DO think the IG wearer could do everything wanda was shown to do (theoretcially) but demi will bring up aw's battle with strange as proof that it couldn't.
damn, i really don't know. the strange aw battled was well prepped and ready. i'm not sure it was the saem level of strange that wanda altered. based on what i hav read, i'd have to say the IG is likely above, but that it is possible wanda's power could affect it.
unless demi can convince me otherwise! whew, tough debate!
Originally posted by leonidas
atlas? 😂not sure i'd go THAT far -- common sense can be applied to a certain degree, gs -- but the issue of whether the wave was her power or not certainly is important to this whole discussion, and i'm not sure we can or should simply assume, or infer, as demi was doing, that the wave WAS her power. and i don't think there is anyway to know whether wanda's power could or couldn't be overridden by the IG. i DO think the IG wearer could do everything wanda was shown to do (theoretcially) but demi will bring up aw's battle with strange as proof that it couldn't.
damn, i really don't know. the strange aw battled was well prepped and ready. i'm not sure it was the saem level of strange that wanda altered. based on what i hav read, i'd have to say the IG is likely above, but that it is possible wanda's power could affect it.
unless demi can convince me otherwise! whew, tough debate!
Read it and see for yourself 🙂
Its obvious where the wave is coming from.
Two Questions for GS:
Who was HOM all about?
Who is the reality alterer in the story?
Lit Comprehension is helpful when reading!!!
