Scarlet Witch vs Adam Warlock(w/IG.) inside 616 universe

Started by demigawd15 pages

heh.

GS's strategy is to bury people with so many words that they lose the will to respond. I don't need to go point by point to rebut every iota of nonsense he spits out.

A couple of points.

1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:


In time, the Force’s pain subsided and it discovered that it was unable to return to its natural state. Hundreds of years later, the Force learned that the universe would come under threat from manipulation of the M’kraan Crystal – a hypercubical nexus of realities – by the mad Shi’ar Emperor D’Ken. To prevent this, the Force sought an avatar through which it could act and so return to Earth , seeking out Feron. Instead, the Force encountered Jean Grey, a member of the heroic mutant X-Men team, whose mind the Force had touched earlier.

However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:


Due to the limitations of its physical form, Dark Phoenix hungered for more energy and transported itself to the star D’Bari, absorbing all the energy from it.

Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Also, the bio states:


Phoenix continued to serve as a member of the X-Men, but ultimately its human form was unable to cope with the Forces immense power.

which is why:


The Force then bonded to her fully and ensured that Rachel could only access as much power as she could safely wield, having learned from its past mistake.

Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

If the Phoenix were at all able to interact with physical beings without an avatar, why would it bother using them, knowing how much destruction it causes and knowing that its full might can't be brought to bear with them?

The answer is clear - if CANNOT act without a host, the same way an Abstract can't act without an M-body.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

On the next page (don't have a scan for it), you see planets crashing together and all sorts of universal destruction.

Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

Additionally, Otherworld is likewise crumbling in that same issue.

This backs up my description:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2765


The wave grabs Meggan and Brian along with the three Corps members and slams them forcefully through crosstime. They witness the destruction of universe after universe after universe. They watch as versions of heroes they know such as Thor, Namor, Iron Man, Thing, Kylun, Human Torch, and Hulk are erased by the unstoppable wall of water.

In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

Originally posted by demigawd
heh.

GS's strategy is to bury people with so many words that they lose the will to respond. I don't need to go point by point to rebut every iota of nonsense he spits out.

A couple of points.

1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:

However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:

Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Also, the bio states:

which is why:

Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

On the next page (don't have a scan for it), you see planets crashing together and all sorts of universal destruction.

Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

Additionally, Otherworld is likewise crumbling in that same issue.

This backs up my description:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2765

In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

And the (p)0wNaG3 swings back to Demi as GS's spurious evidence is crushed under the weight of concise logic!

scarlet witch. rather easily.

Originally posted by demigawd
heh.

GS's strategy is to bury people with so many words that they lose the will to respond. I don't need to go point by point to rebut every iota of nonsense he spits out.

A couple of points.

1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:

However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:

Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Also, the bio states:

which is why:

Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

If the Phoenix were at all able to interact with physical beings without an avatar, why would it bother using them, knowing how much destruction it causes and knowing that its full might can't be brought to bear with them?

The answer is clear - if CANNOT act without a host, the same way an Abstract can't act without an M-body.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

On the next page (don't have a scan for it), you see planets crashing together and all sorts of universal destruction.

Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

Additionally, Otherworld is likewise crumbling in that same issue.

This backs up my description:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2765

In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

clap

well done. there DOES seem to be evidence to support your claims. damn, i gotta read that series . . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
And the (p)0wNaG3 swings back to Demi as GS's spurious evidence is crushed under the weight of concise logic!

😆

for now, my friend, for now . . .

pity we can't find anyone other than jla members worthy to battle us!!

😆

jla assemble! 😄

Oh wait, I'm not done punishing GS yet...

Let's re-examine GS's most precious Phoenix feat - repairing the M'Kraan Crystal. Most people take that as a given because they don't bother scrutinizing the 50+ pages of drivel he spouts. I let it stand because I know it's important to GS, but I think it's time for that grace period to end...

Uncanny X-men #108. If you have it, turn to it. If you don't, read the details here:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1401

Note a few things:

It's actually SCOTT who cracks the crystal, not D'Ken. Yes, a basic optic blast starts the end of the universe.

Next to her Cyclops eye beams are going wild because with his mind trapped in the nightmare he isn’t holding himself back anymore. Phoenix attempts to stop him but he sends a beam straight in her direction. Instead of cutting her in half as it should have however it passes harmlessly through her as even more of Phoenix’s body becomes ephemeral. After knocking Scott out with her telekinesis she realizes that it is too late because one blast had already hit the sphere and it is now cracking and whatever is locked inside is breaking free.

So what was it that's breaking free that mighty Scott Summers unleashed?

A neutron galaxy. What does this neutron galaxy do?


She senses great power there, bound within a live lattice of anti-energy. She also senses that it is dying and when it dies the neutron galaxy within it will be free and as it’s power spreads around the universe it will destroy everything in the process. Eventually reality itself will tear itself apart and give birth to a new virgin universe.

Oh...so that's it? A baby universe is there and will replace this one? Sounds kinda Infinity Gauntlet level.

OK, so we're looking at the end of the universe. But luckily, we have the almighty Phoenix here to help, right? There's nothing she can't do, right?

Welllll.....

Phoenix senses that she needs to knit the lattice back together, she thinks she knows how to do it but she doesn’t have the power as the Phoenix is a being of energy and the Neutron Galaxy absorbs that energy.

Uh oh!

But if Phoenix and all her infinite power can't do it....who can?


Suddenly Storm comes up behind her and offers herself as an anchor in the human plane of reality. Jean realizes that this will work but tells Storm that the anchor she is offering is her life-force, Storm merely tells her that it is her life to give.

STORM! MY HERO!!!

She also gets Corsair - a human - to help out, powerhouse that he is.

So that should be enough, right? I mean, between the infinite power of Phoenix, Storm and Corsair, M'kraan is easy pickings, isn't it?

Welllll...


At the heart of the sphere Phoenix once again changes into bird form and using amazing amounts of power, reality twists and reforms around her. Panic seizes her as she realises she cannot do it alone

Man, AGAIN? What more does she need? She's PHOENIX, dammit! PHOENIX!!


but she then sense the spirits of the X-Men with her. In that instant she succeeds in re-energizing the lattice and she sees that each X-Man has a place and a purpose greater than him or herself. A new pattern emerges, shaped like the mystic tree of life and at the heart is Phoenix, Tiphareth, the vision of the harmony of things. With that she falls unconscious.

Wait...so that's it? Phoenix's repair of the M'Kraan Crystal, the nexus of, er, a neutron GALAXY, needed the entire team of X-men to help her out? And even after that, she was laid out unconscious?

Wow, I'm so impressed! 🙄

Now, GS's predictable response is that Wanda "needed" Pietro and Xavier to create HoM. That's actually incorrect. She needed Xavier to read the minds of her friends and give them what they want. She could have changed the universe to whatever she wanted, but she wanted a utopia. Xavier penetrating the minds and greatest desires of her friends let her know how to restructure the universe to make them happiest. If she wanted to make the universe a series of giant Wanda statues and Cocoa Puffs, believe me...she would have no use for Xavier or Pietro to do it. She didn't...she wanted to give them their greatest desires.

World of difference.

So - in conclusion, we have Phoenix who can't even contain a galaxy without help vs. Scarlet Witch, who destroyed universe after universe by accident and altered THIS universe totally and completely - past and present.

No contest, guys.

A couple of miscellaneous notes:

Could Wanda have altered reality to make herself a telepath and read the minds of all the heroes herself? Yeah, probably. If she could turn off mutants powers, she could alter them. But just because there's a million ways of solving a problem and you pick one doesn't mean that you couldn't have done the same with the other 999,999.

To answer your question, Leonidas - could Wanda recreate the universe without the Phoenix Force, but instead with, say, the ReedForce or marshmellows? Actually yes.

Does that put Wanda above the Phoenix Force? Well, she could put herself above the Phoenix Force if she wanted. But there's a lot to be said for the *importance* of something to the grander scheme of things.

WHAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT? That's a joke. GS is right. Demi is trying to mess up things.

Originally posted by Diunic
WHAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT? That's a joke. GS is right. Demi is trying to mess up things.

ok, I know you're a big fan of his and all, but tell me....if I'm not making things up, and that image I posted isn't something I drew myself, and those quotes I gave are the actual descriptions of those issues I cited...does it convince you? Tell me that it's not compelling. And be honest. 😄

Here's my problem with Wanda vs Warlock: how exactly is she going to defeat him? She can make her desires true: so can Warlock. So what? When has Wanda ever demonstrated this level of power in combat, crazy or sane? Just because she can do it subconsciously doesn't mean that she can channel that power effectively when needed. It also doesn't mean that she can do anything to Warlock before he defeats her.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh wait, I'm not done punishing GS yet...

Let's re-examine GS's most precious Phoenix feat - repairing the M'Kraan Crystal. Most people take that as a given because they don't bother scrutinizing the 50+ pages of drivel he spouts. I let it stand because I know it's important to GS, but I think it's time for that grace period to end...

Uncanny X-men #108. If you have it, turn to it. If you don't, read the details here:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1401

Note a few things:

It's actually SCOTT who cracks the crystal, not D'Ken. Yes, a basic optic blast starts the end of the universe.

So what was it that's breaking free that mighty Scott Summers unleashed?

A neutron galaxy. What does this neutron galaxy do?

Oh...so that's it? A baby universe is there and will replace this one? Sounds kinda Infinity Gauntlet level.

OK, so we're looking at the end of the universe. But luckily, we have the almighty Phoenix here to help, right? There's nothing she can't do, right?

Welllll.....

Uh oh!

But if Phoenix and all her infinite power can't do it....who can?

STORM! MY HERO!!!

She also gets Corsair - a human - to help out, powerhouse that he is.

So that should be enough, right? I mean, between the infinite power of Phoenix, Storm and Corsair, M'kraan is easy pickings, isn't it?

Welllll...

Man, AGAIN? What more does she need? She's PHOENIX, dammit! PHOENIX!!

Wait...so that's it? Phoenix's repair of the M'Kraan Crystal, the nexus of, er, a neutron GALAXY, needed the entire team of X-men to help her out? And even after that, she was laid out unconscious?

Wow, I'm so impressed! 🙄

Now, GS's predictable response is that Wanda "needed" Pietro and Xavier to create HoM. That's actually incorrect. She needed Xavier to read the minds of her friends and give them what they want. She could have changed the universe to whatever she wanted, but she wanted a utopia. Xavier penetrating the minds and greatest desires of her friends let her know how to restructure the universe to make them happiest. If she wanted to make the universe a series of giant Wanda statues and Cocoa Puffs, believe me...she would have no use for Xavier or Pietro to do it. She didn't...she wanted to give them their greatest desires.

World of difference.

So - in conclusion, we have Phoenix who can't even contain a galaxy without help vs. Scarlet Witch, who destroyed universe after universe by accident and altered THIS universe totally and completely - past and present.

No contest, guys.

Well i'm convinced - although it was a bit long Demi 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Well i'm convinced - although it was a bit long Demi 🙂

426 words 1.5 pages in MS Word...not so bad. And pretty conclusive if I do say so myself.😄

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Here's my problem with Wanda vs Warlock: how exactly is she going to defeat him? She can make her desires true: so can Warlock. So what? When has Wanda ever demonstrated this level of power in combat, crazy or sane? Just because she can do it subconsciously doesn't mean that she can channel that power effectively when needed. It also doesn't mean that she can do anything to Warlock before he defeats her.

When you're that powerful, you don't have to "combat" anybody. You just wish them away.

Warlock's reality altering was resisted and countered by Strange. When Wanda altered reality, Strange became Dr. Phil and was none the wiser. That shows that her reality control is greater than that of Warlock's.

Originally posted by demigawd
426 words 1.5 pages in MS Word...not so bad. And pretty conclusive if I do say so myself.😄

When you're that powerful, you don't have to "combat" anybody. You just wish them away.

Warlock's reality altering was resisted and countered by Strange. When Wanda altered reality, Strange became Dr. Phil and was none the wiser. That shows that her reality control is greater than that of Warlock's.


This isn't necessarily true. You're trying to compare situations where factors are different. First of all, why can't Warlock just wish Wanda away? Second of all, when Strange countered what Warlock was doing: A. He was aware of what was happening as opposed to not knowing with Wanda, and B. He was drawing on extra-dimensional power. There's nothing that says Strange wouldn't have been able to counter Wanda had he been prepared.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
This isn't necessarily true. You're trying to compare situations where factors are different. First of all, why can't Warlock just wish Wanda away? Second of all, when Strange countered what Warlock was doing: A. He was aware of what was happening as opposed to not knowing with Wanda, and B. He was drawing on extra-dimensional power. There's nothing that says Strange wouldn't have been able to counter Wanda had he been prepared.

That's fine, but when we're dealing with that level of power, all we have to go on are feats and comparisons. Warlock's only two feats with the IG were both losing efforts - to the Living Tribunal and to Strange.

Strange brought Wanda down, too, but she wasn't conscious while she was fighting him. On two occasions after that, she changed reality and Strange was helpless...he was among the changed. You can see in HoM #7 that he was trying to block her, but he couldn't. In the scan I showed above, an alternate reality Strange was also among the victims. She was able to more completely transform reality than Warlock ever did.

*could* Warlock wish Wanda away? Maybe. *could* Wanda wish Warlock away? Maybe. Could they resist each other? Maybe. It's largely speculation since we don't know what percentage of infinity they each represent. But when you look at respective showings, I have to give the nod to Wanda, as her infinity seems to go a little bit higher than his. 🙂

Originally posted by demigawd
That's fine, but when we're dealing with that level of power, all we have to go on are feats and comparisons. Warlock's only two feats with the IG were both losing efforts - to the Living Tribunal and to Strange.

Strange brought Wanda down, too, but she wasn't conscious while she was fighting him. On two occasions after that, she changed reality and Strange was helpless...he was among the changed. You can see in HoM #7 that he was trying to block her, but he couldn't. In the scan I showed above, an alternate reality Strange was also among the victims. She was able to more completely transform reality than Warlock ever did.

*could* Warlock wish Wanda away? Maybe. *could* Wanda wish Warlock away? Maybe. Could they resist each other? Maybe. It's largely speculation since we don't know what percentage of infinity they each represent. But when you look at respective showings, I have to give the nod to Wanda, as her infinity seems to go a little bit higher than his. 🙂


That's not true. Those were his only defeats. For starters, remember when Warlock was confronted by Strange he was juggling the solar system. Considering that the inhabitants of Earth weren't directly affected by his juggling, I'd count that as pretty good control over reality. There's also restoring order after the IG affair. Also remember that the only person able to divest Warlock of his power was himself.

LT was also able to prevent Warlock's power from working, as the scan below shows.

Warlock's only unchallenged feat was juggling solar systems, which is a galactic level feat, not a universal level feat. Additionally, remember that Wanda didn't just alter the present 616 universe...she altered the timeline. She changed the past completely and altered everybody's history. Strange was unable to counter it, even after he got his memores and powers back. Warlock was actually unable to do the same thing with the IG, and instead used the mind gem to make Strange believe he prevented Strange from ever becoming Sorcerer Supreme. But Strange countered it, just as he countered Warlock's control over reality.

That wasn't the case with Wanda.

Also remember that during her battle with Strange, Wanda was able to summon the same powers and demons that Strange did - while crazy and half-conscious. That would include all the tools Strange used to counter Warlock.

It just seemed like her control over reality was more complete than Warlock's. Warlock's control was pretty good, yes, but again, I give her the nod overall.

Yup game over (p)0wnaG3 to Demi in my opinion 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yup game over (p)0wnaG3 to Demi in my opinion 🙂

Your totally unbiased opinion, I'm sure. 😉

Originally posted by demigawd
Your totally unbiased opinion, I'm sure. 😉

🙂 Of course, I would have no ulterior motives (Whirly turns and sTROLLs out of the thread) 🙂

damn, there is one long ass essay heading our way. i can feel it in me bones . . .
fear