Your right I didn't see the other, but there is no long line of omniversal guardians Merlin was the first and is her father as you know, It was he, Feron and Necrom who created the Omniversal Matrix and the need for a guardian, after using the power of the Phoenix to actualize the Matrix to begin with, it has a lot to do with the Phoenix, they being three of the most powerful magic users ever could not accomplish their goal without the Phoenix.
i dont agree with the "omniverse"... has this been something stated by marvel??? isnt that supposed to include our reality and dc, and all other comics in it??? so now, marvel characters have jurisdiction over superman??? sounds kinda suspect.
i thought multiverse, was all realities from marvel??? i could be mistaken....
Originally posted by LordKaos
Your right I didn't see the other, but there is no long line of omniversal guardians Merlin was the first and is her father as you know, It was he, Feron and Necrom who created the Omniversal Matrix and the need for a guardian, after using the power of the Phoenix to actualize the Matrix to begin with, it has a lot to do with the Phoenix, they being three of the most powerful magic users ever could not accomplish their goal without the Phoenix.
Got it. That was a gap in my knowledge there. Well done.
I think the whole purpose of these Great Powers is to help put the universe/multiverse/omniverse in working order. But with that comes the understanding that there are certain functions that they maintain and certain functions that they yield.
That means, essentially, that while Eternity could clearly beat Roma in a fight, by function, Roma has the jurisdiction to just...end Eternity if in her judgment she felt it was necessary to preserve the omniverse. And Eternity would have to accept that. That she is mortal or of the mortal plane doesn't matter in that context.
So Roma has the authority to destroy all the Cosmics and Abstracts in 616 universe, and was going to exercise that authority in an effort to defeat the source of the Chaos Wave (she never realized it was Wanda) - in that sense, it actually shows that Wanda is more dangerous than the Infinity Gauntlet or the Beyonder or Dark Phoenix, or possibly even HOTU.
Does that make more sense?
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
So how exactly does SW defeat Warlock?
Well, when beings have "infinite" power, they all pretty much have the same basic attack - "Begone". AW has that power and Wanda has that power. So realistically, the only thing you have to go on is who exercised that power better, more completely and more unchallengably. From feats, I'd say Wanda has shown it.
Originally posted by KillAll
i dont agree with the "omniverse"... has this been something stated by marvel??? isnt that supposed to include our reality and dc, and all other comics in it??? so now, marvel characters have jurisdiction over superman??? sounds kinda suspect.i thought multiverse, was all realities from marvel??? i could be mistaken....
It's a fair question. But Marvel doesn't define things by keeping other comicbook companies in mind. Historically, when the term "Omniversal Magistrix" was invented, a multiverse was defined as multiple dimensions of existence. So the 4th dimension is a "universe", Mephisto's realm is a "universe", the Beyonder's realm is a "universe", the microverse is a "universe", and all of those "universes" are part of the "multiverse", even though they're actually part of the same 616 Reality.
So when the term "Omniverse" was defined by Marvel, it was meant to include all of the multiverses in one.
We've since come to change some of the definitions signifnicantly. Mephisto's domain is now seen as a "dimension". The Beyonder's realm is now seen as a "pocket universe", and 4D and the Microverse are "planes of existence". The term "universe" is now interchangable with "reality", and that's what 616 and all its pocket universes and side dimensions and planes of existence is defined as - a single universe
In that sense, the "Omniverse" Roma watches over should more accurately be defined as "Multiverse" now, but the name stuck.
Either way, there are only two "courts" that have multiversal (transuniversal) jurisdiction - The Omniversal Magistrix (Roma, Opal) and The Living Tribunal. Everything else is responsible for its own universe.
In that sense, drawing the attention of the Omniversal Magistrix is more significant than getting a bunch of complaining Abstracts, as we saw in the Infinity Gauntlet. As LT said - the wielder of the IG replaces Eternity. He becomes the embodiment of that UNIVERSE. Presumably, anybody who can defeat Eternity (destroy a universe) can defeat the IG. That includes LT, the Infinites, Roma and SW.
That's another reason why I place SW higher up in the scale than the IG.
the longer gs stays away from this thread, the longer his essay becomes . . .
🙁
interesting take on the omniverse/multiverse distinction. i'd always thought the 2 could be interchangeable in essence, and that sounds like what you're saying. but isn't there also supposed to be multiple multiverses that comprise the megaverse?? what do you see as the 'largest' entity, mega or omniverse?
Wow Demi! You did a pretty good job on that. I only disagree in the part regarding the SW being above IG or Eternity. They are pretty in the same level. SW does not have multiversal powers like The Infinits, LT or Roma just because her power can affect more than one universe. That's seems very clear to me. And the HOTU IS DEFINITELY above LT, The Infinits and Roma. THOTU is also connected w/ the Omni-reality the thing is that Thanos wasn't able to handle its real power only TOAA is.
Originally posted by demigawd1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:
Says no such thing. It says to deal with the M'kraan crystal event Phoenix sought a host to act through. It never said anywhere in the bio that it couldnt act without a host. In fact there are a few examples in its history of Phoenix acting without a host. Without a host Phoenix connected the universes of the multiverse together in an energy matrix, without a host the Phoenix Force sealed the Bete Noir in the Earth. The Phoenix can very well act without a host however it chooses not to because of the harm it causes the creation cycle by becoming a sentient lifeform unto itself within the closed universe system Marvel has.
Originally posted by demigawd
However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:
Nuh-uh. The handbook says no such thing. Taking a host form doesnt automatically result in the Phoenix hungering for power. Thats completely incorrect and not stated anywhere. Misinterpretation.
Dark Phoenix was not the inevitable side effect of Phoenix manifesting as Jean or taking on a host, it was down to Jeans foolish mistakes. After finishing her Phoenix work she shut herself off from the bulk of her power making her vulnerable to the subsequent manipulations of Mastermind. He nurtured in her a hunger for power which part of her embraced and so emerged the Dark Phoenix persona within Jean.
Originally posted by demigawd
Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.
Thats the thing though, the only reason Dark Phoenix hungered for more power in the first place was because the Jean persona shut it off from its power source as stated on panel. It wasnt merely because Phoenix took a host form. ❌
So the answer to your question is no. However Dark Phoenix was far from all powerful, Jean saw to that.
Originally posted by demigawd
Also, the bio stateswhich is why
Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.
If the Phoenix were at all able to interact with physical beings without an avatar, why would it bother using them, knowing how much destruction it causes and knowing that its full might can't be brought to bear with them?
The answer is clear - if CANNOT act without a host, the same way an Abstract can't act without an M-body.
Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.
Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.
The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.
Youre making out as if the bio says its human form (Jean) was unable to cope with the power physically. ❌ Thats not what it says at all Demi:
At first Greys strong moral sense kept the Force in check, but Phoenix succumbed to the psionic manipulation of Wyngarde(Mastermind) Unable to fully free itself of the sinister side of its personality that Wyngarde exposed it to, and with its human consciousness ill-equipped to repress it, the Forces primal urges overwhelmed Phoenix, causing it to become the malevolent Dark Phoenix.
In the end Jean couldnt handle the power MENTALLY, that is made quite clear from the bio and from reading the relevant source material which i would highly suggest after reading your post.
After Jean shut herself off from the power, Mastermind began manipulating her, she had of course made herself susceptible in the first place. Phoenix not only embodies the power of creation but is also a creature of passion, the human consciousness was unable to rein in the power and keep it in check. It wasnt for lack of trying however as the Jean persona fought to maintain the psychic circuit breakers hence Dark Phoenixs need to absorb outside energy sources and it was the Jean persona who helped Prof X temporarily contain her Dark Phoenix self in their psychic battle. Its an immense task keeping the power in check in the first place but after Masterminds manipulations (which Jeans actions made possible) Jean didnt stand a chance and so she lost control.
As for your point on Rachel. It says nothing in the bio or on panel about the Force limiting her power because she couldnt physically cope with it. Thats not the case at all. Considering the bio stated that the past Dark Phoenix problem arose because of mental issues if its saying Phoenix learned from its past mistakes then would it not stand to reason that it was limiting her power to a level she could MENTALLY cope with? 😕
Regardless you are unsupported on the notion that it was a physical issue. Plus Rachel while limited in the use of her power has the potential to match her mother the one true avatar.
Jean Grey as Phoenix has never been defeated in a combat situation through lack of power or ability. Never. If she has been defeated its not without on panel or bio explanations telling you that the defeat is not attributable to those factors. Just like when Galactus is defeated by beings like Thor and minor superhero teams like Alpha Flight its always made clear that hes not at full capacity, that there are reasons behind his defeat which have no bearing on his place in the hierarchy.
Prior to cutting off her power Jean toyed with a herald level character, shrugging off his attempts to kill her, before going on to contain the power of the M'kraan crystal, the greatest actual feat in Marvel comics. As stated on panel after that event she shut off her power keeping it at practical levels for day to day application as a member of the X-men. It was then that she was defeated by Magneto and manipulated by Mastermind. Such defeats arent standard fare for a full power, unrestricted Jean as we've seen.
In New X-men Jean talks of having responsibilities to take care of elsewhere, (#147) she has visions of Sublime, the upcoming confrontation with Xorneto and having to cleanse the planet(#128). She then says she doesnt know how long the Phoenix Consciousness will allow her to stay with her friends. (#150) Later on in the very same issue while comforting a defeated Xorneto he suddenly attacks her killing her physical body. She wasnt engaging him in combat, you were prepared for her departure many months prior and in the very same issue, when free of restrictions and engaged in combat she laughed off Firelords attempts to kill her, Logan killed her body a few issues before 150 and she came back immediately a panel later (telling you that if she wanted to she could have returned straight away, but as we were told on panel her work required her to be elsewhere)
Jean as Phoenix has never faced a defeat which has been left unexplained on panel.
Originally posted by demigawdA Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.
Based on what? Jean as Phoenix has performed ACTUAL on panel feats beyond virtually any being in Marvel so thats conclusively incorrect. The avatars dont draw on and use the power of life unborn. Thats something the Phoenix inadvertently did when it was sentient on the physical plane. Hence its penchant for avatars. The avatars tap directly into the Phoenix Force which lies beyond time and space as stated in Excalibur #64.
Youre failing comes in thinking Jean is restricted because her physical body is unable to cope with the sheer amount of power Phoenix possesses. Thats incorrect. The Phoenix embodies passion among other things and the avatars must be strong willed to rein its power and control its primal urges. The only thing that limits what Jean can do as stated in bios is her strength of mind and breadth of imagination,
however as stated in New X-men when she gets too close to her power when the limitations of the human consciousness begin to inhibit her, the Phoenix Consciousness takes over. (Which is often displayed on panel by a change in speech bubble and a bold font)
Originally posted by demigawd
Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:
U really havent Demi. This was very spiteful ❌
Originally posted by demigawd
Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?Galactus.
You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.
Lo she is mighty.
Youre skipping out vital steps Demi which render your argument invalid. You have yet to come up with any on panel statement or reference conclusively saying that Wanda generated the chaos wave as opposed to just triggerring it. Thats the first step.
Manage to do that and your argument for this almighty Wanda is still invalid as the resultant destruction isnt something directly caused by Wanda anyway. Its not something maintained, controlled or directly performed by Wanda, theres no evidence for that whatsoever its not a feat. Its the equivalent of me yodling in the Alps, causing an avalanche which goes on to devestate the surrounding countryside. Destroying towns and killing loadsa people who could otherwise kick my ass. The resultant destruction isnt a personal feat of mine. Its not something ive done directly or proven to be able to do under my own power. I merely set something off and let nature take its course. Domino effect.
The chaos wave didnt go through destroying universes head on, overpowering the cosmic powers directly, it eroded dimensional walls which held everything together. It attacked the framework, destabilised the structural integrity as stated. Find evidence that Wanda actually generated the wave, that its a spillover of her power and the destruction caused still isnt a feat achieved by her.
Thanos with the IG overpowered the abstracts.
Thanos with HOTU in a direct confrontation overpowered the abstracts and absorbed the universe.
Phoenix consciously had sub-atomic control of an entire universe which she restructured in her palm.
Attribute the wave to Wanda and she still merely cut the strings and had everything else done for her.
She never consciously willed the multiverse to collapse in on its self. Theres nothing to suggest she has anywhere near that scale of power. Its similar to the Parallax situation. He used what power he did have to take advantage of instability in space/time left over by the crisis, all he did could never have been achieved by his own power or at least that has never been proven. It seems Marvel has its very own Parallax. 🙂
Originally posted by demigawdRestricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.
In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.
In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.
Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.
Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.
And yet Roma still describes the extent of Wandas manipulations as a "global alteration" Theres no escaping that and with no other on panel statement discrediting that or any other statement referring to the scale at all thats all the on panel proof we have. Your opinion to the contrary really isnt good enough.
Wanda brought about House of M to make everyone happy. Her friends and family and therefore obviously there friends and family and so on. All the races shown affected by House of M are tied to Earths history. Some of earths heroes belong to or are connected to said races. Who is to say Wanda just warped earth and all connected to its history that she could affect?
You have no conclusive evidence which discredits that scenario. That scenario is supported by a statement from Roma the omniversal guardian which directly refers to the scale of the warp. Without on panel statements to the contrary. You have nothing. Point dismissed.
Originally posted by demigawd
Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.Not the HOTU
Not the IG
Not the M'Kraan Crystal
and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.
Ive been into previously why Phoenixes feats are greater than the likes of the IG and HOTU. Containing the multiversal power of the crystal is conclusively beyond anything the others have done.
Wandas feat is warping for definite earth 616 and possibly the universe.
You have not provided on panel statements which attribute the chaos wave to her. So you cannot treat your opinion on the matter as fact. Wait for her bio in a few months and see if youre supported there. Until then you have nothing. SHHHHHHH!! 😉
Even if it was her power. It is not a multiversal feat. Its not her applying her power simultaneously across the universes of the multiverse. Its a spillover of her power through the hole she accidentally ripped in the brane through to other realities. Her actions in 616 possibly caused more destruction than we've yet witnessed but none of it is a direct result of Wandas power. She removed the keystone the structure came tumbling down. Moot point.
Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.
Really not good enough Demi. Youre welcome to come again, preferably with proof in hand. 🙄
Originally posted by demigawd
You know how it is, Mider. You can't name cosmic entities without GS storming in and inserting the usual Phoenix propaganda.GS😛hoenix::Thanos:death
I merely mentioned Phoenix as it has a multiversal feat in its pertoire. A tru emultiversal feat. Youre the one who went on to turn this into a Phoenix thread out of spite 😉
Originally posted by leonidas
the longer gs stays away from this thread, the longer his essay becomes . . .🙁
interesting take on the omniverse/multiverse distinction. i'd always thought the 2 could be interchangeable in essence, and that sounds like what you're saying. but isn't there also supposed to be multiple multiverses that comprise the megaverse?? what do you see as the 'largest' entity, mega or omniverse?
If it gets too long, I'll just ignore it, since nobody is going to read it anyway - least of all me (fair warning, GS!!!).
Yes, we're saying the same thing, essentially. STRICTLY speaking, KillAll is quite correct, in that the omniverse should encompass all comicbook multiverses - DC, Marvel, Image, Devil's Due, etc. And technically speaking, it would even include....us, the people behind the fourth wall, and the writers, editors, the "real world".
The "megaverse" is usually used in the context of Marvel/DC crossovers. It's generally specifically two comic companies working together - the two sets of realities together are considered a "megaverse", or multi-multiverses, haha.
Practically speaking, Roma is really just responsible for the multiverse - everything Marvel-related. But, like I said, that's the second highest plane of jurisdiction in Marvel.
So, in summary:
Omniverse>megaverse>multiverse>universe>pocket universes/dimensions/realms/planes
Originally posted by demigawd
Got it. That was a gap in my knowledge there. Well done.I think the whole purpose of these Great Powers is to help put the universe/multiverse/omniverse in working order. But with that comes the understanding that there are certain functions that they maintain and certain functions that they yield.
That means, essentially, that while Eternity could clearly beat Roma in a fight, by function, Roma has the jurisdiction to just...end Eternity if in her judgment she felt it was necessary to preserve the omniverse. And Eternity would have to accept that. That she is mortal or of the mortal plane doesn't matter in that context.
So Roma has the authority to destroy all the Cosmics and Abstracts in 616 universe, and was going to exercise that authority in an effort to defeat the source of the Chaos Wave (she never realized it was Wanda) - in that sense, it actually shows that Wanda is more dangerous than the Infinity Gauntlet or the Beyonder or Dark Phoenix, or possibly even HOTU.
Does that make more sense?
Well, when beings have "infinite" power, they all pretty much have the same basic attack - "Begone". AW has that power and Wanda has that power. So realistically, the only thing you have to go on is who exercised that power better, more completely and more unchallengably. From feats, I'd say Wanda has shown it.
It's a fair question. But Marvel doesn't define things by keeping other comicbook companies in mind. Historically, when the term "Omniversal Magistrix" was invented, a multiverse was defined as multiple dimensions of existence. So the 4th dimension is a "universe", Mephisto's realm is a "universe", the Beyonder's realm is a "universe", the microverse is a "universe", and all of those "universes" are part of the "multiverse", even though they're actually part of the same 616 Reality.
So when the term "Omniverse" was defined by Marvel, it was meant to include all of the multiverses in one.
We've since come to change some of the definitions signifnicantly. Mephisto's domain is now seen as a "dimension". The Beyonder's realm is now seen as a "pocket universe", and 4D and the Microverse are "planes of existence". The term "universe" is now interchangable with "reality", and that's what 616 and all its pocket universes and side dimensions and planes of existence is defined as - a single universe
In that sense, the "Omniverse" Roma watches over should more accurately be defined as "Multiverse" now, but the name stuck.
Either way, there are only two "courts" that have multiversal (transuniversal) jurisdiction - The Omniversal Magistrix (Roma, Opal) and The Living Tribunal. Everything else is responsible for its own universe.
In that sense, drawing the attention of the Omniversal Magistrix is more significant than getting a bunch of complaining Abstracts, as we saw in the Infinity Gauntlet. As LT said - the wielder of the IG replaces Eternity. He becomes the embodiment of that UNIVERSE. Presumably, anybody who can defeat Eternity (destroy a universe) can defeat the IG. That includes LT, the Infinites, Roma and SW.
That's another reason why I place SW higher up in the scale than the IG.
The thing is, just because Wanda has that power doesn't mean she knows how to use it most effectively. She doesn't think on the same level as Warlock and Thanos and Strange. In this fight, that would be her undoing.
Originally posted by demigawd
Meggan didn't stop the chaos wave, Meggan closed the breach through which the chaos wave was leaking. That's not the same as defeating Wanda's reality-controlling powers, or defeating Wanda, since Wanda didn't intentionally open the hole between realities in the first place. If Wanda knew what she did, she would give her blessings to fix it.If Meggan stopped the chaos wave itself, it would have restored House of M.
Nope thats all based on the assumption that the Chaos wave was generated by Wanda. An assumption which isnt conclusively supported on panel.
Meggan jumped through the rift and she slowed down/stopped the chaos wave so that the rest of the mutants could seal the rift, ending the threat.
The mere action of closing the rift was all that was required to put an end to the threat of the chaos wave and to prevent the destruction of 616 from becoming necessary. So that in itself suggests either that it was a spillover of Wandas energies or that it was the rift being tore open in the first place.
Either way the destruction caused wasnt something maintained or performed by Wanda. Its not a feat, its something she set off, she wasnt directly responsible for it. It was for arguments sake merely a leakage.
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, I wanted to add: if Phoenix were anywhere need as mighty and all-powerful as you thought, would she really need to allow herself to be killed and shattered to appear in the future? The wielder of the IG or HOTU could exist in all times at once, or simply skip into the future and come back into the past without anybody even knowing you were gone. Why would Phoenix have to go through such dramatic lengths just to show up a hundred years or so later? A bit much, don't you think?No - Phoenix died because she was caught by Xorn and her mortal shell was destroyed. Therefore, the Phoenix Force can no longer manifest itself on the physical plane until it's pieced itself together, which didn't happen for 100+ years.
That's right - Xorn took the Phoenix Force out of the picture for over a century.
But you're right, this is off-topic.
The Phoenix Force didnt NEED to die to be reborn. Thats never been stated anywhere. It dies only to be reborn. The Phoenix allowed itself to die because it had other responsibilities elsewhere. Its as simple as that. Its existence in reality was no longer necessary until the Here comes tomorrow future 150 years later. However as we saw in issue 148 if Phoenix wishes to come back straight away she can. So bit of a moot point really
