hahaha....that nobody is going to read. As usual.
I don't have the time or the inclination to go point by point with him for 20 pages, which is his usual strategy. I'm going to try to keep further replies as concise as possible and avoid getting bogged down, which is easy to do when debating him.
Of course I say that NOW....
Originally posted by Mider
what on earth does this debate have to do with the Pheonix force we are talking about scarlet witch and adam warlock with the IG scarlet witches powers so so massive they leaked into other dimensions the IG gives you power over one universe there scarlet witch has a better chance of winning
You know how it is, Mider. You can't name cosmic entities without GS storming in and inserting the usual Phoenix propaganda.
GS😛hoenix::Thanos:death
There are inconsistencies regarding whether Phoenix can manifest without a host or not, it says it can't in the handbook, but it also says that the Phoenix Force, not an avatar, trapped Le Bete Noir in the still cooling earth, so how is that! Now if Wanda is as powerful as we hope she can allow the Phoenix to manifest without a host to fight it, but then it remains to be seen if she can simply banish it at full power once the laws of possibility are altered to let it in. Think of it like a sorcerer summoning a demon, but not being able to send it back. Phoenix only comes to the realm of manifestation when it needs to be there,so I doubt it would do so just to have a battle with a mortal no matter how powerful. Wandas disruption of 616 may not be as big as we think considering only the otherworlders seem to be worried (they seem to be only concerned with other Earths), but the higher ups (Living Tribunal, Eternity, Phoenix etc..) don't seem to be all that concerned, and it's not because they can't do anything, because there have been many times when reality was in danger by other higher powers and they have intervened, when things beyond mortal comprehension were involved, everybody can pretty much comprehend what Wanda did, so let the mortals fix their own problem.
Well, Le Bete Noir is a mystical ancient evil that first became known during Gambit and Bishop....at the time it didn't have a physical form, either. IIRC, a physical form was part of its punishment, the same way the Beyonder ended up trapped in a moral chick's form. So it's explainawayable (I just made up a word).
And you can't say the cosmics didn't get involved....they did. Roma and Saturyne are both guardians of the omniverse. They're cosmic beings. Technically, multiversal matters are handled by THEM, not by Eternity, who only has jurisdiction over his universe, or any of the other asbstracts, who are all universal in scope only. LT acts only when a "motion" is filed. Roma felt they could handle it because the tear was accidental, and fixable. She was right.
Why didn't Phoenix get involved? When does Phoenix EVER get involved? Usually Phoenix gets DRAGGED into things. Phoenix is NEVER proactive, and usually gets owned when she is involved.
Also, Phoenix is dead and shattered. 😂
Roma and that other chick are on the lower tier of cosmic beings, that's why they were to handle the problem, and they are Omiversal not Multiversal there's a difference, they only handle one part of the existence, all the different Earths. Not to mention the power base of Otherworld was only made possible because of the Phoenix.
And who actually owned Phoenix, and please don't say Xorn as that was something that was needed so it could die to be reborn 150 years later, somebody else. I wouldn't say Phoenix is dragged into anything because nobody has ever summoned it (even Feron I didn't summon it he was in a state of meditation it was curious about him), it appears when it wants to. Phoenix is shattered, it's mortal shell is dead, and she's not even dead anymore just gone. I know this thread really shouldn't even be dealing with the Phoenix so the last thing I will say is that if Meggan could stop that chaoswave, the Phoenix would have definitely been able to do it and more than likely survive it.
Originally posted by LordKaos
Roma and that other chick are on the lower tier of cosmic beings, that's why they were to handle the problem, and they are Omiversal not Multiversal there's a difference, they only handle one part of the existence, all the different Earths. Not to mention the power base of Otherworld was only made possible because of the Phoenix.And who actually owned Phoenix, and please don't say Xorn as that was something that was needed so it could die to be reborn 150 years later, somebody else. I wouldn't say Phoenix is dragged into anything because nobody has ever summoned it (even Feron I didn't summon it he was in a state of meditation it was curious about him), it appears when it wants to. Phoenix is shattered, it's mortal shell is dead, and she's not even dead anymore just gone. I know this thread really shouldn't even be dealing with the Phoenix so the last thing I will say is that if Meggan could stop that chaoswave, the Phoenix would have definitely been able to do it and more than likely survive it.
Er...multiverse: multiple universes. Omniverse: ALL multiverses. Roma and Sat are not a lower tier of cosmic beings...their job is to guard the entire omniverse and matters affecting multiple universes/multiverses. Eternity and the cosmics are state court, Roma/Sat are federal court. One isn't more powerful than the other...they serve different purposes.
LT is the supreme court, but it didn't get to that point.
As for who owned Phoenix - Phoenix actually has a pretty lousy record in combat. What major victories does she have? She stalemated Galactus and got the best of him, but that's really her only major victory. Thor beat her in one shot, Magneto beat her, she was successfully manipulated by Mastermind, Xavier fought her off, Beyonder, a cosmic cube, owned her...it's not that impressive.
Meggan didn't stop the chaos wave, Meggan closed the breach through which the chaos wave was leaking. That's not the same as defeating Wanda's reality-controlling powers, or defeating Wanda, since Wanda didn't intentionally open the hole between realities in the first place. If Wanda knew what she did, she would give her blessings to fix it.
If Meggan stopped the chaos wave itself, it would have restored House of M.
Oh, I wanted to add: if Phoenix were anywhere need as mighty and all-powerful as you thought, would she really need to allow herself to be killed and shattered to appear in the future? The wielder of the IG or HOTU could exist in all times at once, or simply skip into the future and come back into the past without anybody even knowing you were gone. Why would Phoenix have to go through such dramatic lengths just to show up a hundred years or so later? A bit much, don't you think?
No - Phoenix died because she was caught by Xorn and her mortal shell was destroyed. Therefore, the Phoenix Force can no longer manifest itself on the physical plane until it's pieced itself together, which didn't happen for 100+ years.
That's right - Xorn took the Phoenix Force out of the picture for over a century.
But you're right, this is off-topic.
Rachel, Psylocke, Brian, and Nocturne closed the breach she was on the other side to halt the wave. Their jurisdiction is shown to be only along the part of existence that deals with Earth and it's parallels, sorry i will say no more, but i have been drinking vast amounts of beer. The beings who have these items you speak of are mortal, when i say mortal I mean they are of the mortal plane, the abstracts are called that for a reason they have ways and motives beyond the mortal coil. Wanda created a powerful wave indeed, but it was stopped, do think anybody can stop the big bang which the Phoenix initiates?
It's not just Earth...Roma was going to destroy the entire 616 reality to be rid of Wanda. It wouldn't have been the end of the Earth...it would have been the end of 616.
The fact that Roma has the jurisdiction to end an entire universe, which would destroy its Eternity, Galactus, Oblivion, Infinity, Phoenix, etc. shows the level of authority she has in the grander scheme of things. Do you think if it were a matter beneath the Abstracts that they'd simply agree to all being destroyed by Roma? Because that's what she was about to do.
And nobody stopped the chaos wave but Wanda herself. She and she alone brought the HoM to an end.
Originally posted by LordKaos
If this was a cosmic threat why were none of the alien races touched? And where exactly does Roma get this authority? Her place in the scheme of things would not be possible had not the Phoenix Force been the most important part of projecting that Omniversal Matrix.
Ah, I see...you'd have to read my other posts to understand the full extent.
If you look at the scan I posted on page 5, it shows multiple alien races among those affected by the chaos wave. It also includes GALACTUS among them.
Additionally, in 616, the Kree, Shi'ar and Skrulls are all shown to be affected by Wanda's reality changes.
As for where Roma gets her authority - it's unspecified. I think it has something to do with a long line of omniversal guardians, like Merlin, etc. It has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. In fact, it exists outside of the multiverse, so it's not even part of the Phoenix Force.