IKC, stop pretending. You didn't win. When you come out of your little dream world and actually come up with an argument, we'll continue. You have in no way showed how Kun would defeat Luke. Beyond that, did I ever say who I thought would win? No, I didn't. I still will not say who I think will win. I merely found it interesting to debate with an intelligent fanboy, but even intelligent ones get annoying after a while.
A couple of things here I need cleared up on why Kun would beat the hell out of Luke. I'd like to say that Exar Kun > Luke, but there's always these things that get in the way of me saying that.
1.) Luke Skywalker, a man who has beaten two Sith Lords in duels 3 if we count Lumiya, countless Dark Jedi and thousands of Vong Warriors. Doesn't Luke have more dueling expierence? Kun has been in a total of 5 duels that I've counted and was NEVER truley tested or pushed to his limits, Luke has been, Luke who's power in the force is unrivaled, the man can move black holes, create fully functioning ships from the force.
2.) About Ragnos saying to Kun "through you, the Sith will live forever..." whatever, and yet the Sith did die.
3.) Is it ever mentioned that Vodo was a good duelist, or even a good fighter?
4.) Odan-Urr mentioning his age before he died. Why would his dying words be "Im old"..."I've failed" why even mention his age if it didn't effect the outcome?
5.) Luke has saber moves as it appears if it were twenty sabers. He's called unstoppable when he focuses, he can tap into the Raw force anytime he chooses.
6.) Master Ood - Didn't he procced to blow Kun away and Kun gave up his attempt to get the sabers, And yet Sedriss was able to beat Ood with ease or something? I heard that but not 100& sure on that at all.
7.) Most importantly he's never faced Luke's custom style. Luke can weild a blade as if it were twenty. Kun was never shown to do such.
8.) Kun's opponents
Sylvar
Vodo
Ood
Ulic
Odan-Urr
Luke's
Vader
Sidious
Lumiya
Countless Dark Jedi
Thousands of Vong Warriors
The Kiliks
Supreme Overlord
Now compare - who has the more expierence, encountered more styles, who has been on the receiving end of Sith magic and still won?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, stop pretending. You didn't win. When you come out of your little dream world and actually come up with an argument, we'll continue. You have in no way showed how Kun would defeat Luke. Beyond that, did I ever say who I thought would win? No, I didn't. I still will not say who I think will win. I merely found it interesting to debate with an intelligent fanboy, but even intelligent ones get annoying after a while.
Translation: I still can't debate with you because your counterargument shot me down completely. I will now call you a fanboy despite the fact that I'm frequently a subject of ridicule whenever the very concept of Luke Skywalker comes up. I'm going to pretend that I haven't taken a side on this topic even though it's quite obvious who I think will win. I will now claim only to have entered this topic as a scientific experiment. Don't I look clever, now?
1.) Luke Skywalker, a man who has beaten two Sith Lords in duels 3 if we count Lumiya, countless Dark Jedi and thousands of Vong Warriors. Doesn't Luke have more dueling expierence? Kun has been in a total of 5 duels that I've counted and was NEVER truley tested or pushed to his limits
Feat wars
Given that Exar Kun has multiple times the amount of real, formal training with duelers who were better than him (at the time), Kun's saber skills more than surpass Luke's. Given that he is described as a master of the lightsaber by the omniscient narrator before he then improved his skills (and his weapon) and that he toyed with and easily trashed Vodo, Kun's got a lot of skill over Luke.
That and note Kun's physical strength: He lifted up the Chancellor by the back of the head with one extended arm, held him over his own shoulder, used him as a puppet, then dropped him. Then he was able to hammer through Vodo's staff, described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than (his) lightsaber!" He does this with one hand on his short-hilted lightsaber.
Luke who's power in the force is unrivaled
Uh, what? Maybe in his time. Feat wars!
the man can move black holes
Feat wars! Unless there's a black hole somewhere nearby, how the hell is this going to help him in a fight?
create fully functioning ships from the force.
Feat wars! Kun created fully fuctioning living beings with alchemy.
2.) About Ragnos saying to Kun "through you, the Sith will live forever..." whatever, and yet the Sith did die.
Clarification, "because of you, the Sith will never die!"
Nobody has ever argued that Ragnos was omniscient.
What does this have to do with anything?
3.) Is it ever mentioned that Vodo was a good duelist, or even a good fighter?
Yes, by the narrator. See here.
4.) Odan-Urr mentioning his age before he died. Why would his dying words be "Im old"..."I've failed" why even mention his age if it didn't effect the outcome?
Because there's no narrator mention of his age being the reason he died, neither does he say it. Hell, Nadd's dying words were of declaring Kun a pretender to the Sith legacy. His dying words were not "I'm too old to withstand your attack!" Kun killed him with a wave of his hand, Odan was before that obviously well enough to try to block him from the Force.
5.) Luke has saber moves as it appears if it were twenty sabers. He's called unstoppable when he focuses, he can tap into the Raw force anytime he chooses.
Hyperbolic feat wars, now. What would "looking as if you're wielding 20 sabers" look like? You could flail your arms around really fast and not be very skillful at all and look like that, too. Does he have control, precision, and form?
Hyperbole is not going to save Luke.
6.) Master Ood - Didn't he procced to blow Kun away and Kun gave up his attempt to get the sabers, And yet Sedriss was able to beat Ood with ease or something? I heard that but not 100& sure on that at all.
And then you heard very wrong or whoever you heard it from is biased as all hell. Ood was guarding some Jedi secrets and lightsabers. Kun walks into the room, asks for them, Ood ignites his blade. They lock sabers in one panel before a massassi slaps Ood on the back of his head. Ood declares that "combat is not his skill," and enters the next stage of his lifecycle by rooting himself right on top of the things Kun was looking to get.
Kun was in a hurry as evidenced by his dialogue to the Massassi ("we don't have time to waste," etc.) and blasting Ood would potentially have destroyed that which he sought. So Kun leaves him there to get fried by ten supernovas.
7.) Most importantly he's never faced Luke's custom style. Luke can weild a blade as if it were twenty. Kun was never shown to do such.
Hyperbole.
Nor has Luke ever faced Kun's, and Kun's has an actual foundation of Old Jedi Order saber forms to go on. Nor has Luke ever faced a lightsaber like Kun's (short-hilted, double-bladed. Able to extend the blade length).
8.)
Marka Ragnos' opponents:
Simus
So would Luke WTFPWN Ragnos? Feat wars are a logical fallacy, sorry.
Now compare -
Okay.
who has the more expierence,
In what? Because I'd contend that Kun's experience, given his formal training and knowledge of the old forms, is more valuable. Luke has more of it given that he was alive longer, but that doesn't make it more valuable by any stretch of the imagination.
encountered more styles
Kun actually has encountered the OJO saber forms so... yeah. Luke's encountered a wider variety of beings, though. So? Feat wars.
who has been on the receiving end of Sith magic and still won?
Uh, it sure as hell wasn't Luke. The last known use of Sith magic was by Kun himself. Nothing that Palpatine or anybody else threw at Luke was described as Sith magic.
Kun wins.
Even if it is hyberbole, so is "Kun is the most formidable student I've ever had".
Uh, no it isn't. "The most" is absolute and objective. "zOMG IT LOOKS AS IF HE'S SPINNING 20 SABERS" is subjective hyperbole.
Originally posted by tdtd
This is exactly the point I wanted someone to make. His force powers are unrivaled and his saber skills are described as if he's weilding 20 at once. Even if it is hyberbole, so is "Kun is the most formidable student I've ever had". DN Luke is more powerful than anyone with the exception of Ragnos.
And Perhaps the Ancient Sith, but that we dont have enough information on, as it might be true Tulak Horde could defeat DN Luke in lightsaber combat, and most duels end up in lightsaber combats, as well knowing the Ancient Sith, none of them would be average in the Force, most would rank much higher than DE Sidious.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, small point about Sith Magic. What exactly would you call Sidious coming back to life several times? What would you call Sidious' creations(those weird Rancor-like things on Byss and when he infused people with the force)? Sidious did practice Sith Magic as well as regular force powers.
One has never argued that sustaining a spirit in the Force is Sith Magic. Were the jedi spirits practicing Sith magic?
Sidious' creations? Don't know, tell me more.
Infusing people with the Force? Right... because that's a known ability of Sith magic despite that Desann could do it with the Valley of the Jedi and some gems.
Sidious never practiced Sith magic. Hell, the concept wasn't even invented when DE was written.
From wookiepedia: The chrysalide, also known as the "chrysalis beast", was a type of Rancor altered by Sith Alchemy, possessing two four-fingered claws and two three-toed feet. Their teeth could chew through X-1 Viper armor.
Emperor Palpatine kept some as pets at the Imperial Citadel at Byss, where they would attack on his command.
There is also Palaptine's book, The Creation of Monsters . That focues on Sith Alchemy, a form of Sith Magic.
And there were the big guard guys that protected Palpatine's stuff. Not the Royal Guards, the dumb ones. Those may have been altered with regular genetics though.