DN Luke vs Exar Kun

I'm glad your assuming otherwise without prove, and even more so when you assume that he build the amulete in the exact same way... Wow, any prove for that? Or does it just fit into your argument?

Occam's razor. The correct assumption is to assume it is identical because the major source of Sith knowledge for Kun is Sadow.

So are you saying the amulets can't be used for anything but that one attack? Does that mean I can't hit someone with it? I can't hammer in a nail with it?

Right, so effectively the amulet would be useless if somebody would reach his limit of power, if somebody would become more powerful in a normal state more controlled then angry?

Nonsense. He can still use the power, but that doesn't mean it gets more powerful as he gets more experienced.

The blast becomes more powerful each times he fires each time his anger increases.. But if it really only relies on anger and potential and not on power then the amulet really makes Exar kun weaker then we previously assumed.

WTF are you talking about? Yes, the blasts become more powerful the angrier he gets. So? How the **** does that make him weaker?

and again, unless you can prove the amulet can do more then one sort of attack when we only see it doing one thing, then this isn't going to cut it.

Pull your head out of your ass. We see the amulets do three different things:

QED, end of story.

Prove that they are different? We see one amulet do one thing the other another, unless you can prove that they can do the same thing they can't. Your asking me to prove they can't, when there is no evidence that they can.

No, the correct assumption is they are the same. You have to prove they're different.

We see one amulet do two things, the other amulet which is based on the first one do another. So you're assuming that despite the aesthetic similarities and the fact that it's most likely constructed based on the original, that they're different? That's nonsense.

Let me search i'll come back on this later.

I'll go find the quote

Good luck... 🙄

Ah look a big ass stadium could that house a million people? Very much doubt it, doesn't seem all that big to me really, and definitly not big enough to house a million people let alone stand far more...

Uh, look at the ****ing place. Ulic is on the smaller podium in the center there, and he's a speck. That place could easily house over a million sentient beings.

And thats two, shot straight through the guy... impressive indeed, but didn't kill him in one shot...

Learn to count, he fires six different times. Not every time is at the wyrm, either. The last shot is what takes out the wyrm, it goes through the back of its head and out its mouth.

Or perhaps the weapon couldn't have killed him?

There's no reason to assume that. Marka's a tank, but he's not made of tougher stuff than stone.

Pretty damn sober here... And there is plenty of evidence.... Well nothing conclusive really, but you can't provide that either thats why we are arguing...

Bullshit. My evidence is the blasts themselves and their on-panel effects. The onus is on you to prove that they'd have no effect. You've done jack shit to do so.

No, because he doesn't do the same thing. If he would do what you are doing now though then yes he would be childish...

Funny, because my parodies of your logic are quite similar to Illustrious' parodies of other people's. But believe what you want.

and your an ignorant boy with a rat nose go to school, does that make any sense? No it doesn't. Stop saying it... I won't do it because you want me too.

Except I have plenty reason to say you're not posting sensibly. You're incoherent half the time and you're making wild assumptions with no evidence to back them up.

Originally posted by IKC
Occam's razor. The correct assumption is to assume it is identical because the major source of Sith knowledge for Kun is Sadow.

And why would he create an amulet he fears and has never used again, for a second time? What would the purpose be? He sometimes uses both hands in an attack, so why would he need two? It makes no sense.

So are you saying the amulets can't be used for anything but that one attack? Does that mean I can't hit someone with it? I can't hammer in a nail with it?

Oh come on what kind of stupid logic is this, of course you can hit somebody with it. The same way you can hit somebody with a banana won't make it a deadly weapon now will it? Seriously.... This is just foolish, and really debating like this is useless.

Nonsense. He can still use the power, but that doesn't mean it gets more powerful as he gets more experienced.

Thats pretty damn stupid if you ask me, any proof for this btw?

WTF are you talking about? Yes, the blasts become more powerful the angrier he gets. So? How the **** does that make him weaker?

Well apparantly he could have used the blasts as a 3 year old when angry, doesn't exactly speak well for Exar his skill now does it? If a 3 year old could have done the exact same thing.

Pull your head out of your ass. We see the amulets do three different things:

Actually the attacks on the beast and on Nadd are very likely the same thing you still haven't proven otherwise, just because they look different doesn't mean they are the same...

and the other thing was done by another amulet that you still haven't proven is the same.

QED, end of story.

Indeed because a bunch of assumptions prove a lot now.

No, the correct assumption is they are the same. You have to prove they're different.

Why is that? You are claiming they are the same, prove up.

[QUOT]
We see one amulet do two things, the other amulet which is based on the first one do another. So you're assuming that despite the aesthetic similarities and the fact that it's most likely constructed based on the original, that they're different? That's nonsense.[/QUOTE]

No, I am assuming that because we don't see the second amulet do anything the first one did and that somebody would have no use for the same amulet twice the second is different. You are assuming they are the same based on how they look.

Good luck... 🙄

Couldn't find it, I admit you were right.

Uh, look at the ****ing place. Ulic is on the smaller podium in the center there, and he's a speck. That place could easily house over a million sentient beings.

Have you ever been to a Stadium to a top? Big stadiums hold about 50.000 people and when you are at the top of that on the other side seeing whats happening on the other side is pretty hard.

Learn to count, he fires six different times. Not every time is at the wyrm, either. The last shot is what takes out the wyrm, it goes through the back of its head and out its mouth.

And he fires at the beast twice.

There's no reason to assume that. Marka's a tank, but he's not made of tougher stuff than stone.

So you are going to assume he had a weapon that was more powerful and that he could block the attack without evidence? Nice, nothing conclusive though both things are possible.

Bullshit. My evidence is the blasts themselves and their on-panel effects. The onus is on you to prove that they'd have no effect. You've done jack shit to do so.

Just read my posts..

Funny, because my parodies of your logic are quite similar to Illustrious' parodies of other people's. But believe what you want.

Well he still isn't a Kun fanboy he makes sense, doesn't use them against me and I've never seen it used in situations like this.

Except I have plenty reason to say you're not posting sensibly. You're incoherent half the time and you're making wild assumptions with no evidence to back them up.

And there is plenty of reason to call you a Exar fanboy, what does that do to you? So just stop saying it, it makes you look like a twelve year old.

IKC, have you read the Dark Nest books?

Originally posted by IKC
SotME contradicts the movies in these ways:

They are crap ways, as you don't understand why these things happened. If you were a little less ignorant, maybe you would have taken a few minutes to figure this stuff out.

Originally posted by IKC
In SotME, Luke confronts Vader, duels him, and beats him. This is contradicted by ESB where Luke gets pwned.

Obi-wan is stated as guiding Luke's body. Obi-wan's spirit fought Vader through Luke, rather then Luke personally fighting Vader.

Originally posted by IKC
In SotME, he finds the Kaiburr crystal which greatly amplifies Force power. The crystal has mysteriously disappeared from his possessions by ESB and is never mentioned again.

The Kaiburr crystal lost much of it's power after he left the planet it was found on. Luke later put the crystal in his lightsaber, which made his blade extremely efficient and powerful.

Originally posted by IKC
In SotME, he's able to use the Force with some proficiency, whereas in ESB he's barely able to pluck his lightsaber from the ice.

SotME is not canon. QED.

Any specifics?

Wrong, because a production department refers to his movie production department. By your logic, all of the Star Wars games must be G-Canon because they came out of Lucasarts.

Bullshit. It has to come directly from Lucas or the notes he made on his films. That is G-Canon. The Chronology is not.

QED

You don't have any proof that the Guides are any lower a level of canon then the comics. They are made by a Lucas department just like the comics and are a newer source of information then them. When do they even contradict?

What is it with you and putting QED everywhere?

Hope you're ready for some scan pwnage then. Nice knowing you.

You know, only a few of the comics have the seal on them. Some of the DLoS comics don't have it.

Hey look, the Lightsnake argument!

I really hope that is not the best response you can come up with.

Here, some Illustriapwnage for this stupid point:

Then the guides are a newer form of canon then the comics and they outweigh them, assuming they even contradict eachother to begin with.

No, but it makes many elements (hyperbolic descriptions of power, Sidious' confrontation with the sith on Korriban, etc) retconned.

I could state that the TOTJ comics are hyperbolic descriptions of power, or what could at least be called hyperbolic descriptions of power, in them. I cannot and would not even if I could try to change what is canon to make it more in line with the rest of the EU. You however have tried to do so, leading me to believe that you may be the most intelligent fanboy I have ever met.

Vader vs. Luke? Luke barely being able to pull at his lightsaber? No kaiburr crystal among Luke's possessions?

I already mentioned this in a previous post. If you had done your research, you would know why the things in SotME happened like they did and why they do not contradict any higher levels of canon.

I meant DE Luke. Reading comprehension.

And many of the elements in DE have been retconned. Read above.

I'm not having a reading comprehension problem, I am just stating that even if the Ancient Sith are more powerful then DE Luke, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are more powerful then DN Luke, the person in question.

And even if small elements were retconned, that does not make the entire comic false. If we go by your standard on that matter, then ANH isn't canon as in ep2 and 3 we see that Owen Lars didn't say anthing one way or the other when it came to Anakin fighting in the Clone Wars, but in ANH it was stated that Owen didn't want him fighting in it. See my point?

Mostly because Ragnos is only shown to lord over the living Sith, and that Sith spirits even in KOTOR pretty much did as they liked.

Then why would it have mattered that it was Ragnos that liked Exar? We know that the spirits of Korriban(which includes Ragnos) like Sidious.

As well, it appears that special conditions had to be met for Ragnos to get off his spiritual ass and do or say something: Ulic and Kun's amulets meeting, Ludo and Naga's fight, etc.

What where these special conditions required for Ragnos to go talk to them?

Ragnos was not invented by DE. Ergo, Sidious was not talking to Ragnos.

Here is where your argument potentially backfires. Certain elements of DE have been retconned. That means that Ragnos was the top dog on Korriban still. And seeing as spirits can be destroyed, why would anyone dare go against Ragnos?

Actually, you have to prove the positive. I want proof that he lorded over all the millions of dead ancient Sith lords even while he himself was dead.

Asking me to prove the negative will only get you laughed at.

Ragnos is the strongest Sith we kow of. If Ragnos was later outdone by some other Sith spirit, then that only speaks more for Sidious being respected by the spirits of Korriban. And seeing as spirits can be killed, you certainly would not want to go against the top dog Sith.

Kun can take Luke because he has demonstrated far greater power than Skywalker has. Kun can take Luke because his skill with a lightsaber is superior to Luke's. Kun can take Luke because Kun has studied Force techniques that Luke has never heard of and will never hear of.

What powers has Kun demonstrated beyond defeating someone who has access to mutiple planets worth of power(no, it's not DE Sidious who did this)? This guy probably had more power then Exar got from all of the Massassi. Furthermore, Luke defeated this person while under attack from a second person who is also extremely powerful. And beyond even that, there were mutiple others with Shattergun pellets firing at him while he was fighting the other two people. Note that shattergun pellets are stated as very difficult to block compared to blaster bolts.

When has Kun ever demonstrated the ability to leave people effectively instakilled who are outside of the force? Yss, Luke's attack doesn't instakill, but they are helpless after being hit by it, so the effect is the same.

When has Exar ever shown the ability to call all the Jedi to him. Not just certain nearby Jedi, but all the Jedi in the entire galaxy?

One amulet blast and Luke is dead.

Totally unsupported BS.

IKC is a Kun fanboy and DN Luke would beat Kun, end of debate.

Didn't you just recently criticize IKC for saying, "end of debate" prematurely?

No you're confusing me with someone else. I'm only saying it because there's nothing more he can throw out or prove without being biased without merit.

And why would he create an amulet he fears and has never used again, for a second time? What would the purpose be? He sometimes uses both hands in an attack, so why would he need two? It makes no sense.

Because there's no evidence that he fears it and he never used it the same way. You need to prove up, not come out with bullshit theories like "Kun feared his amulet, that's why he created another one."

He doesn't use both hands in those attacks, by the way. If you had eyes, you'd see that his right hand is gripping his wrist.

Oh come on what kind of stupid logic is this, of course you can hit somebody with it. The same way you can hit somebody with a banana won't make it a deadly weapon now will it? Seriously.... This is just foolish, and really debating like this is useless.

What's foolish is your assumption that the amulets have only one use and ergo Kun must have performed the same action on Freedon Nadd as he did on Sadow's beasts despite direct on-panel evidence to the contrary. The scans contradict you, your point collapses. QED.

Thats pretty damn stupid if you ask me, any proof for this btw?

Logical deduction:

Amulets can allow the user to fire blasts powered by anger and, assumedly, one's one Force potential. Kun got damn angry and fired huge blasts.

One cannot increase in Force potential as they get older, one can only get more experienced and learn new techniques.

Ergo, the height of Kun's rage = the maximum blast power he can put out, whether he's trained or not. The amulets seem to trigger the effect, and amulets are mundane objects that cannot gain Force power.

There, simplified for you.

Well apparantly he could have used the blasts as a 3 year old when angry, doesn't exactly speak well for Exar his skill now does it? If a 3 year old could have done the exact same thing.

Except he didn't have access to said amulets when he was three years old. It speaks nothing about his skill, it speaks to his Force power and his knowledge when he creates a duplicate.

But what's your point? He can perform the action, there's no known counter to it. Luke is dicked.

Actually the attacks on the beast and on Nadd are very likely the same thing you still haven't proven otherwise, just because they look different doesn't mean they are the same...

Uh, bullshit. The onus is on you to prove the positive. Learn to debate and then come try it.

There was no blast of energy when Kun stuck his hand inside and destroyed Nadd's spirit as there was when Kun fired blasts from his hand to destroy Sadow's creatures. Ergo, the logical assumption is that they are different attacks.

and the other thing was done by another amulet that you still haven't proven is the same.

Why is that? You are claiming they are the same, prove up.

No, I am assuming that because we don't see the second amulet do anything the first one did and that somebody would have no use for the same amulet twice the second is different. You are assuming they are the same based on how they look.

Hello? How do you think he learned how to construct his duplicate amulet, Fishy? Do you think he actually invented a new kind despite the fact that he has one he can copy already? Despite the fact that he has access to everything Sadow had ever written down on Yavin IV?

You assume they are different. You assume they have different properties. You assume that Exar Kun would have no use for a duplicate amulet. You assume all of that in the face of logical deduction and evidence. All of that begs for proof. You can provide none. Ergo, it is proper to assume they are identical and share identical properties.

Have you ever been to a Stadium to a top? Big stadiums hold about 50.000 people and when you are at the top of that on the other side seeing whats happening on the other side is pretty hard.

Have you ever been on the Space Shuttle? It can only hold a handful of people. My, that must mean Star Wars ships are only populated by a handful of people!

Face it. That stadium is far bigger than anything we've ever built on Earth. That and you're arguing in the face of G-Canon fact:

I even pointed out that there's one million member systems in the PT era, along with over fifty million invididual colonies on top of that. Even if you argue and assume that a fraction of that was available in Kun's time, that's still over a million senators.

And he fires at the beast twice.

And each blast he fires is described by the omniscient narrator as "consum(ing) another of Naga Sadow's horrors!"

So you are going to assume he had a weapon that was more powerful and that he could block the attack without evidence? Nice, nothing conclusive though both things are possible.

The logical conclusion is to assume something similar to that, yes, because he lorded over the guy who created the original amulet. Obviously Ragnos knew something we don't, otherwise Sadow or someone else would have blown him away long before he actually died.

And there is plenty of reason to call you a Exar fanboy, what does that do to you? So just stop saying it, it makes you look like a twelve year old.

Except you keep coming back with the same hare-brained arguments after I slap them down time and time again.

IKC, have you read the Dark Nest books?

Glentract, have you read all of TOTJ?

They are crap ways, as you don't understand why these things happened. If you were a little less ignorant, maybe you would have taken a few minutes to figure this stuff out.

Nice condescension from a 14 year old, Glentract. I own the book and have read it; can you say as much?

Obi-wan is stated as guiding Luke's body. Obi-wan's spirit fought Vader through Luke, rather then Luke personally fighting Vader.

Except Obi-Wan mysteriously is unable to do so in ESB. He even states that he's unable to. Contradicted by the movies, not canon. QED.

The Kaiburr crystal lost much of it's power after he left the planet it was found on. Luke later put the crystal in his lightsaber, which made his blade extremely efficient and powerful.

lol. Prove up, where is this stated? Do I have to prove to you that the Chronology cannot create canon, again?

Any specifics?

He's able to use telekinesis with a fair degree of competence.

You don't have any proof that the Guides are any lower a level of canon then the comics. They are made by a Lucas department just like the comics and are a newer source of information then them. When do they even contradict?

Jesus, Glentract. I just proved to you that the guides are not canon because they do not come from his movie production department. G-Canon is anything that comes from Lucas. The guides did not come from Lucas. Ergo, the guides are not G-Canon, much less any other kind of canon.

I like how you conveniently ignored that I showed how absurd your logic is with my Lucasarts example.

You know, only a few of the comics have the seal on them. Some of the DLoS comics don't have it.

lol!

Glentract, guess what? That was a scan of the compilation book. That one has all of DLotS in it. According to your fanboy logic, that makes TOTJ G-Canon.

Good thing for you that I don't subscribe to that bullshit "logic."

I really hope that is not the best response you can come up with.

And then I quoted Lightsnake stating the same things you just stated. Good job, buddy.

Then the guides are a newer form of canon then the comics and they outweigh them, assuming they even contradict eachother to begin with.

Did you... read the quote?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.

Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the golden age was actually 5000 years before the events in question.

Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).

The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass?

Because the Chronology is not and can not create canon, your point collapses. The Chronology cannot, as well, contradict the primary source material they derive their information from, or else the primary source takes precedence over the guide.

I could state that the TOTJ comics are hyperbolic descriptions of power, or what could at least be called hyperbolic descriptions of power, in them. I cannot and would not even if I could try to change what is canon to make it more in line with the rest of the EU. You however have tried to do so, leading me to believe that you may be the most intelligent fanboy I have ever met.

Says the boy who thinks he can dictate what is canon.

TOTJ is not hyperbolic, for one. It makes several objective statements: Marka Ragnos, for example, is the (definitive) most powerful of the (again, definitive) most powerful.

But because DE describes DE Luke and Sidious as godlike beings, etc etc, and later those two are put into context with the people of TOTJ (because TOTJ was written later) their descriptions are retconned.

I already mentioned this in a previous post. If you had done your research, you would know why the things in SotME happened like they did and why they do not contradict any higher levels of canon.

And if you had read the book, you'd see that they did.

And even if small elements were retconned, that does not make the entire comic false. If we go by your standard on that matter, then ANH isn't canon as in ep2 and 3 we see that Owen Lars didn't say anthing one way or the other when it came to Anakin fighting in the Clone Wars, but in ANH it was stated that Owen didn't want him fighting in it. See my point?

First of all, your analogy is flawed since absence of proof is not proof of absence. Lars could easily have told Obi-Wan that as, for example, Obi-Wan is handing off Luke.

And I never said the entire comic was false, you do have a reading comprehension problem. I stated that many of the descriptions of power were made false and Sidious' meetings with Sith spirits were called into question because it was written at a time when the Sith were only supposed to have existed two thousand rather than five thousand BBY.

Then why would it have mattered that it was Ragnos that liked Exar? We know that the spirits of Korriban(which includes Ragnos) like Sidious.

But you do not know that all of them "liked" Sidious, and you do not know that Ragnos himself liked Sidious, because Ragnos did not yet exist.

Here is where your argument potentially backfires. Certain elements of DE have been retconned. That means that Ragnos was the top dog on Korriban still. And seeing as spirits can be destroyed, why would anyone dare go against Ragnos?

See above.

What where these special conditions required for Ragnos to go talk to them?

I just told you. One of them was Exar and Ulic's amulets meeting. That is made very clear at the end of DLotS.

Ragnos is the strongest Sith we kow of. If Ragnos was later outdone by some other Sith spirit, then that only speaks more for Sidious being respected by the spirits of Korriban. And seeing as spirits can be killed, you certainly would not want to go against the top dog Sith.

Except you have no proof that he lorded over those who were already dead, nor do you have any proof that spirits can harm one another. You assume that since he lords over the living then he must lord over the dead, but this assumption begs for proof. So prove up.

What powers has Kun demonstrated beyond defeating someone who has access to mutiple planets worth of power(no, it's not DE Sidious who did this)?

How about you provide some context? I remember your bullshit about "zOMG, Kyp killed teh leviathan!!1!1!ONE"

This guy probably had more power then Exar got from all of the Massassi.

This is another Lightsnake argument.

There is no proof that Exar got jack shit from the massassi. We only know that their sacrifices were needed for the ritual to free his spirit to take place.

Furthermore, Luke defeated this person while under attack from a second person who is also extremely powerful. And beyond even that, there were mutiple others with Shattergun pellets firing at him while he was fighting the other two people. Note that shattergun pellets are stated as very difficult to block compared to blaster bolts.

Feat wars are a logical fallacy. Provide some convincing context and then show how he'd beat Kun, who likely has much greater lightsaber skill than Luke.

When has Kun ever demonstrated the ability to leave people effectively instakilled who are outside of the force? Yss, Luke's attack doesn't instakill, but they are helpless after being hit by it, so the effect is the same.

Feat wars are a logical fallacy. If I participated in feat wars, I'd easily answer this with Kun's sith magic spell, the one that froze the entire Senate of at least one million beings and sustained itself while he used the Chancellor of the Republic as a puppet and WTFPWNed Vodo Baas.

When has Exar ever shown the ability to call all the Jedi to him. Not just certain nearby Jedi, but all the Jedi in the entire galaxy?

Lol!

Feat wars are a logical fallacy, but you just shot yourself in the foot.

There you go, all the Jedi in the galaxy. Way more than Luke had, too.

Totally unsupported BS.

Wanna run that by me again?

Kun wins. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Originally posted by IKC
Because there's no evidence that he fears it and he never used it the same way. You need to prove up, not come out with bullshit theories like "Kun feared his amulet, that's why he created another one."

It literally says he was afraid for the amulet, that it almost destroyed him.

He doesn't use both hands in those attacks, by the way. If you had eyes, you'd see that his right hand is gripping his wrist.

And you accuse me of being blind?

Read the first image... The one where he says he can barely control the attacks... He uses both hands.

What's foolish is your assumption that the amulets have only one use and ergo Kun must have performed the same action on Freedon Nadd as he did on Sadow's beasts despite direct on-panel evidence to the contrary. The scans contradict you, your point collapses. QED.

How foolish, when we only see the amulet do one thing and another amulet another.... Yay 🙂

And again, the attack was pretty much the same it just looked different the energy from the amulet destroyed Nadd. The amulet is kinda like a bazooka I fire it at you, it looks different then when I put it up your ass and fire, the second btw is far more effective. Still the weapon does the same thing.

Logical deduction:

Which is hypocritical coming from you... but okay...

Amulets can allow the user to fire blasts powered by anger and, assumedly, one's one Force potential. Kun got damn angry and fired huge blasts.

And he got even angrier when he faced Nadd because he hated Nadd far more then some stupid beast he had never seen, so that attack even if it was different would have been more powerful. Or do you wish tho argue that too.

One cannot increase in Force potential as they get older, one can only get more experienced and learn new techniques.

Ergo, the height of Kun's rage = the maximum blast power he can put out, whether he's trained or not. The amulets seem to trigger the effect, and amulets are mundane objects that cannot gain Force power.

There, simplified for you.

And that just makes Kun look like a pussy, if his greatest feats were accomplished by something he could barely control and didn't power at all. His potential means jack shit as he probably never reached it. Without his amulets he would be dead as hell, of course he's fighting with amulets... Really give that to Anakin and he would everybody in PT times even when he was five year olds... It just kinda makes him look weak as hell without them.

Except he didn't have access to said amulets when he was three years old. It speaks nothing about his skill, it speaks to his Force power and his knowledge when he creates a duplicate.

It speaks for his knowledge that he did create another amulet yes, I agree with that. But Odan Urr was a knowledge nut, he wasn't exactly the mots powerful Jedi out there.

But what's your point? He can perform the action, there's no known counter to it. Luke is dicked.

Just that I used to believe he was powering it, and now it turns out that no matter how skilled he is, the attack would have been the same...

Uh, bullshit. The onus is on you to prove the positive. Learn to debate and then come try it.

Your the one making an assumption like that with no prove, when we clearly see the second amulet do a completely different thing and the first amulet only do one thing. Then why the hell should I prove they are different? The only thing they share is how they look.

There was no blast of energy when Kun stuck his hand inside and destroyed Nadd's spirit as there was when Kun fired blasts from his hand to destroy Sadow's creatures. Ergo, the logical assumption is that they are different attacks.

Again, if I fire at you with a Bazooka or put it up your ass and then fire they will look different they are pretty much the same.

Still the narrator says "With every pulse of anger the anger doubles the power of its discharge" Then he puts it Nadd and the Amulet again discharges energy its the same thing it just looks different.

Hello? How do you think he learned how to construct his duplicate amulet, Fishy? Do you think he actually invented a new kind despite the fact that he has one he can copy already? Despite the fact that he has access to everything Sadow had ever written down on Yavin IV?

Sadow didn't have all his writings there, he got there right after an invasion he was running... So perhaps the writings for creating an amulet like the one Kun already had wasn't there.

Then we have the fact that the Amulets are never seen doing the same thing.

And the fact that having two of the same amulets is very useless, why create two bazooka's when you can have a bazooka and a M16, it would have been a waste of his time to create another weapon that does the exact same thing, when he could barely control it the first time and never used it again.

You assume they are different. You assume they have different properties. You assume that Exar Kun would have no use for a duplicate amulet. You assume all of that in the face of logical deduction and evidence. All of that begs for proof. You can provide none. Ergo, it is proper to assume they are identical and share identical properties.

No actually, there is nothing to show that they are alike, except for there look. Prove that they are the same when we know for sure that the attacks they used are not the same.

Have you ever been on the Space Shuttle? It can only hold a handful of people. My, that must mean Star Wars ships are only populated by a handful of people!

Very stupid logic IKC, the stadium simply can not hold a million people, simple as that. The stadium isn't much bigger then an average earth stadium. Madison Square Garden for instance can house about 20.000 people, the new york yankee stadium can house about 52.000 people, the Amsterdam Arena can house about 20 to 30.000 people depending on what kind of thing is going on.

That Stadium isn't bigger and definitly not much bigger then any of those. Yet you claim it can house a million people. Bullshit.

Face it. That stadium is far bigger than anything we've ever built on Earth. That and you're arguing in the face of G-Canon fact:

G-Canon? Opinions are G-Canon now? and the stadium isn't bigger, you haven't proven jack shit. If that stadium could house a million we wouldn't even see Ulic standing there.

And each blast he fires is described by the omniscient narrator as "consum(ing) another of Naga Sadow's horrors!"

And we still see it fire at the big beast twice...

The logical conclusion is to assume something similar to that, yes, because he lorded over the guy who created the original amulet. Obviously Ragnos knew something we don't, otherwise Sadow or someone else would have blown him away long before he actually died.

Unless of course he could resist the attacks without amulets in some other way. Its not going to be impossible to do that.

Except you keep coming back with the same hare-brained arguments after I slap them down time and time again.

With more assumptions that you can find in the average Kotor post, which you hate so much and keep attacking because they are assumptions.

You cannot win an argument with a fanboy.

It literally says he was afraid for the amulet, that it almost destroyed him.

It nowhere states that he feared the amulet. You're reading that into it. It is nowhere in the text.

And it states that it almost destroyed the untrained Kun. Kun later himself says that the knowledge of Naga Sadow could destroy him if he didn't master it, "So master it I shall!"

Ergo, the amulet cannot destroy him, and he didn't fear an inanimate object.

Read the first image... The one where he says he can barely control the attacks... He uses both hands.

Right, because his hand couldn't possibly be gripping his wrist right? That's why all the other scans have him shooting just with his left, right?

Tell me, what amulet did he have on his right hand at that time? What's that? None?

And again, the attack was pretty much the same it just looked different the energy from the amulet destroyed Nadd. The amulet is kinda like a bazooka I fire it at you, it looks different then when I put it up your ass and fire, the second btw is far more effective. Still the weapon does the same thing.

FISHY. LOOK AT THE SCANS.

They are not the same attack because they look nothing alike. Nadd is not a physical object, ergo we should have seen an energy blast if Kun fired one. He did not. All he did was stick his hand inside where his spirit was.

The onus is on you to prove that they're the same attack. You. Can. Not.

Again:

The scans contradict you, your point collapses. QED.

And he got even angrier when he faced Nadd because he hated Nadd far more then some stupid beast he had never seen, so that attack even if it was different would have been more powerful. Or do you wish tho argue that too.

No, bullshit. Exar only acts on an "impulse of anger" when he destroys Nadd, whereas against the beast his "rage multiplies a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times."

Looks like you lose the point. Those are omniscient narrator quotes.

By the way, you still haven't proven that the attacks were the same. Have fun trying, because the scans contradict you.

And that just makes Kun look like a pussy, if his greatest feats were accomplished by something he could barely control and didn't power at all. His potential means jack shit as he probably never reached it. Without his amulets he would be dead as hell, of course he's fighting with amulets... Really give that to Anakin and he would everybody in PT times even when he was five year olds... It just kinda makes him look weak as hell without them.

Except Kun has plenty of testaments to his power that were not accomplished with said amulets, one of which was constructing another one, indicating he has learned quite a lot of the knowledge of the Ancients. But it doesn't matter what you think in your unsupported opinion makes "Kun look like a pussy," he's a "pussy" that's going to beat the shit out of Skywalker.

And you can't assume that TPM Anakin has more potential than Kun, by the way. Anakin is a pretty big question mark.

It speaks for his knowledge that he did create another amulet yes, I agree with that. But Odan Urr was a knowledge nut, he wasn't exactly the mots powerful Jedi out there.

Naga Sadow was a "knowledge nut." Is he a weakling now, too?

Good standards there. Nevermind that you degrade Odan-Urr to make your weak case look better.

What's that about Odan being a weakling again?

Just that I used to believe he was powering it, and now it turns out that no matter how skilled he is, the attack would have been the same...

He is powering it. That doesn't mean it requires skill to perform, but it does require skill to control. You going to knock Leia for adding her power to Luke during DE now? Because it's a similar situation.

Both situations speak as testaments to their power.

Your the one making an assumption like that with no prove, when we clearly see the second amulet do a completely different thing and the first amulet only do one thing. Then why the hell should I prove they are different? The only thing they share is how they look.

Because of Occam's razor, Fishy. The natural assumption is that two amulets that look the same, are worn the same way, and appear to be constructed the same way would have the same properties. The onus is on you to prove that they're different: absence of proof is not proof of absence. You cannot simply state out of hand that because Kun never had need to fire a blast out of his new amulet then that means that he couldn't.

Again, if I fire at you with a Bazooka or put it up your ass and then fire they will look different they are pretty much the same.

Still the narrator says "With every pulse of anger the anger doubles the power of its discharge" Then he puts it Nadd and the Amulet again discharges energy its the same thing it just looks different.

Except you can see Kun's hand inside Nadd's spirit. And you can see no blast of energy. Ergo, it's not the same attack. QED.

Stating the same things repeatedly will not make them true. Goebbels didn't take into account someone answering said lies.

Sadow didn't have all his writings there, he got there right after an invasion he was running... So perhaps the writings for creating an amulet like the one Kun already had wasn't there.

Perhaps they weren't, but evidence speaks against it because in TSW he has another one. So either Sadow had said writings on his flagship or he wrote it down again.

Then we have the fact that the Amulets are never seen doing the same thing.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Learn to debate.

And the fact that having two of the same amulets is very useless, why create two bazooka's when you can have a bazooka and a M16, it would have been a waste of his time to create another weapon that does the exact same thing, when he could barely control it the first time and never used it again.

Except he could only barely control it at the time when he had zero experience in the ways of the Dark Side and the Sith. Obviously, since he built another one, he figured out how to control it.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because he never used it again doesn't mean he can't. He was never in a life threatening situation again.

No actually, there is nothing to show that they are alike, except for there look. Prove that they are the same when we know for sure that the attacks they used are not the same.

The onus is on you, see above.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Very stupid logic IKC, the stadium simply can not hold a million people, simple as that. The stadium isn't much bigger then an average earth stadium. Madison Square Garden for instance can house about 20.000 people, the new york yankee stadium can house about 52.000 people, the Amsterdam Arena can house about 20 to 30.000 people depending on what kind of thing is going on.

G-Canon? Opinions are G-Canon now? and the stadium isn't bigger, you haven't proven jack shit. If that stadium could house a million we wouldn't even see Ulic standing there.

What a crock of shit, Fishy. How the hell are you estimating how much the Senate can hold when you can't even get a very good look at the place? Why are you assuming that stadium must be the size of our Earth stadiums? The tower that Ulic stands on appears in other scans as absolutely immense. So is the one the Chancellor stands on. And you're still arguing against G-Canon:

I even pointed out that there's one million member systems in the PT era, along with over fifty million individual colonies on top of that. Even if you argue and assume that a fraction of that was available in Kun's time, that's still over a million senators.

QED. Either that stadium, like I believe, can hold millions or that image has been retconned and it should be bigger.

And we still see it fire at the big beast twice...

And the beast is larger than the blasts. Ergo, Kun must not have hit it in a vital area with the first shot. However, when he shoots it the final time (through the back of the head, see the scan) the beast is seen in the very next panel as dropping down to the ground, dead.

Unless of course he could resist the attacks without amulets in some other way. Its not going to be impossible to do that.

Or he resisted it with his own amulets. You don't know the circumstances, don't make up ridiculous theories and then try to force people to subscribe to them.

However Ragnos and the rest of the Ancients may have resisted such attacks, they have knowledge that Luke never learned existed. It's ridiculous to assume, then, that Luke can block these blasts.

With more assumptions that you can find in the average Kotor post, which you hate so much and keep attacking because they are assumptions.

Except my assumptions are backed up with logical deductions derived from on-panel evidence, whereas yours are from... non-canon gameplay. Good call.

Originally posted by IKC
It nowhere states that he feared the amulet. You're reading that into it. It is nowhere in the text.

So Kun didn't fear dead? Sure...

And it states that it almost destroyed the untrained Kun. Kun later himself says that the knowledge of Naga Sadow could destroy him if he didn't master it, "So master it I shall!"

I very much doubt he's takling about the amulet... He's talking about things from Sadow that survived, that could be everything... From another sort of Massasi to another big beast.. It means shit.

Ergo, the amulet cannot destroy him, and he didn't fear an inanimate object.

If the amulet can destroy him, then why didn't he fear it? He feared dead, being destroyed equals dead.

Right, because his hand couldn't possibly be gripping his wrist right? That's why all the other scans have him shooting just with his left, right?

Look at the scan, does it look like his gripping his wrist? He has both his hands strechted out fully, right next to each other and not one of them is turned, can you grab your wrist without turning one of your arms even slightly, no you can't. Ergo he was using both hands.

Tell me, what amulet did he have on his right hand at that time? What's that? None?

Exactly my point, and he still used both hands to power the blast, so why would he create a second amulet that does exactly the same? Now if what you say is true and this all powerful and can destroy everything it touches, and we know he could use both hands then what reason would he have for creating another equally powerful amulet that does exactly the same if one is enough? What reason? None.

FISHY. LOOK AT THE SCANS.

They are not the same attack because they look nothing alike. Nadd is not a physical object, ergo we should have seen an energy blast if Kun fired one. He did not. All he did was stick his hand inside where his spirit was.

And again read what is said, the amulet discharges energy because of his anger. Apparantly that can be in several forms, but there is absolutely no reason to assume that they really did things differently, because there is nothing that says that. If anything there is nothing that shows your theory.

The onus is on you to prove that they're the same attack. You. Can. Not.

Again, discharge of energy thats what the amulet does. Sometimes in a beam sometimes apparantly in a way that looks differently, you have no prove that its different and that the amulet can do different things. Prove up, you can't.

No, bullshit. Exar only acts on an "impulse of anger" when he destroys Nadd, whereas against the beast his "rage multiplies a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times."

Quoting things that aren't said now? How nice... And you are saying he was angryer at the beast then at Nadd, whom he hated? Yeah right thats logical.

Looks like you lose the point. Those are omniscient narrator quotes.

Yeah I keep telling you that too, you don't listen either.

By the way, you still haven't proven that the attacks were the same. Have fun trying, because the scans contradict you.

Already did... Discharge of energy never shown doing anything else...

Except Kun has plenty of testaments to his power that were not accomplished with said amulets, one of which was constructing another one, indicating he has learned quite a lot of the knowledge of the Ancients. But it doesn't matter what you think in your unsupported opinion makes "Kun look like a pussy," he's a "pussy" that's going to beat the shit out of Skywalker.

Of course not, still doesn't speak well for him. And again what would the purpose be of creating the exact same amulet? and why do you assume they are the same when there is no prove that they are the same. However logically he would have no reason to build the exact same amulet, and we see on screen evidence that they do different things. So the onus is on you to prove they are the same when there is no evidence and no logical reason to assume Kun would build the same thing.

And you can't assume that TPM Anakin has more potential than Kun, by the way. Anakin is a pretty big question mark.

Actually Kun is the unknown here, but you get the point I was trying to make. TPM Anakin could have pwned the entire freaking Jedi Council with ease if he had that amulet and was angry.

Naga Sadow was a "knowledge nut." Is he a weakling now, too?

Did I ever say he was? However knowing things does not make you powerful.

Good standards there. Nevermind that you degrade Odan-Urr to make your weak case look better.

What's that about Odan being a weakling again?

Actually i'm not, he himself says he isn't that great a fighter... The Sith wars were pretty much over after Sadow retreated, what he did after that is against weaker people as Sadow was running most of the Lords were dead and Kressh was dead as well... He couldn't do against somebody with power, and Nomi did it against Ulic with all her power when Ulic was already down for the count, nothing that shows he's incredible. And he himself says he isn't a good fighter and that he doesn't like fighting. No reason to assume he's good.

He is powering it. That doesn't mean it requires skill to perform, but it does require skill to control. You going to knock Leia for adding her power to Luke during DE now? Because it's a similar situation.

No, but I am going to say Kun his amulet is just a cheap trick if you ask me... He has it, but its cheap.

Both situations speak as testaments to their power.

No it speaks for his potential and power, is Anakin the most powerful of the PT now, because he has most potential and can get very angry?

Because of Occam's razor, Fishy. The natural assumption is that two amulets that look the same, are worn the same way, and appear to be constructed the same way would have the same properties. The onus is on you to prove that they're different: absence of proof is not proof of absence. You cannot simply state out of hand that because Kun never had need to fire a blast out of his new amulet then that means that he couldn't.

We don't see them do the same thing
Kun would have no reason to make an amulet that does what another already can.

And yet you assume that because they look the same they are the same? Prove up, when nothing but your own assumption confirms it.

Except you can see Kun's hand inside Nadd's spirit. And you can see no blast of energy. Ergo, it's not the same attack. QED[//QUOTE]

Again, the attack of the weapon is described as an energy discharge.. Blast or not, its an energy discharge and in both cases it had the same effect. Ergo it was the same attack.

[QUOTE]
Stating the same things repeatedly will not make them true. Goebbels didn't take into account someone answering said lies.

Glad that you realise that...

Perhaps they weren't, but evidence speaks against it because in TSW he has another one. So either Sadow had said writings on his flagship or he wrote it down again.

Or perhaps Kun made a different amulet... That does different things.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Learn to debate.

Obi Wan never destroyed a star, OMG that must mean he can.

Dooku never ate a planet, OMG that must mean he can

z0mg fanboyish statement, absence of proof is not proof of absence that is true, in a logical situation. You however say that based on an assumption that I'm fighting you must be right. So an assumption makes an assumption right... Good logic.

Except he could only barely control it at the time when he had zero experience in the ways of the Dark Side and the Sith. Obviously, since he built another one, he figured out how to control it.

Zero? He read Nadd his scrolls, he knew things. He had joined the Dark Side just refused to use it until that time really... And building another one doesn't prove shit as it could have been and likely was a completely different amulet with different powers.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because he never used it again doesn't mean he can't. He was never in a life threatening situation again.

He wasn't? How would you call his dead then?? Not life threathening at all... No... And I never said he couldn't, I said he wouldn't until the very last moment because he simply couldn't control it all that well.

The onus is on you, see above.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

you know I keep hearing these excuses in debates, you prove up no you prove up. You know what, I'm not even going to argue like that anymore, you prove up i'll prove up. Or drop the point and admit you can't.

What a crock of shit, Fishy. How the hell are you estimating how much the Senate can hold when you can't even get a very good look at the place? Why are you assuming that stadium must be the size of our Earth stadiums? The tower that Ulic stands on appears in other scans as absolutely immense. So is the one the Chancellor stands on. And you're still arguing against G-Canon:

G-Canon fact? What the hell is that quote? Who said it, where is it quoted from? How is it G-Canon... and again if you would use logic you would see that the stadium simply isn't big enough to hold a million people. Go to a big stadium on earth, look from one side to the other and look down. Try to see the person standing there, i'm telling you. You won't. Ulic standing up high is only downplaying the size of the stadium really, because the higher he would be the easier it would be to see. And we can clearly see the entire stadium.

QED. Either that stadium, like I believe, can hold millions or that image has been retconned and it should be bigger.

Source for this so called G-Canon fact?? The scan disproves it though.

And the beast is larger than the blasts. Ergo, Kun must not have hit it in a vital area with the first shot. However, when he shoots it the final time (through the back of the head, see the scan) the beast is seen in the very next panel as dropping down to the ground, dead.

So it doesn't destroy everything at once, as the beast was still in tact not much later... QED

Or he resisted it with his own amulets. You don't know the circumstances, don't make up ridiculous theories and then try to force people to subscribe to them.

Actually you were the one doing that, I just gave another possibility, i'm not stating either one to be true. I'm saying you don't know and you claiming that it must have been another amulet is unsupported and bullshit.

However Ragnos and the rest of the Ancients may have resisted such attacks, they have knowledge that Luke never learned existed. It's ridiculous to assume, then, that Luke can block these blasts.

Unless of course it was just a simple move of the force that a manipulation of energy like we have seen many Jedi do... You don't know the specifics, claiming that it will work beyond all doubt is foolish.

Except my assumptions are backed up with logical deductions derived from on-panel evidence, whereas yours are from... non-canon gameplay. Good call.

No they aren't, they are heavily biased... Based on wrong information and opinions, and often wrong. Logical deduction something you love so much is only ever allowed in TOTJ threads, i'm getting sick and tired of your blatant fanboyism. And you thinking Exar Kun rules surpreme above all others, with ridiculious assumptions. That aren't proven in anything but your own mind.

Why is this still a debate? DN Luke beats Kun that has already been settled

Actually that hasn't been settled at all, I haven't seen anybody prove anything for DN Luke... Nothing, no statement no debate nothing about his power.

Again then, who wins?

I'm going to say Exar Kun, but thats because i have no information on Luke.

One thing: Fishy, there's over one million systems in the Republic as of the PT, along with over fifty million colonies and the like. Even if we were to assume that a fraction of those existed in Kun's time, and only half of those in turn had present senators, that's likely a million people or more. And you're forgetting one important detail (While haggling the number of people in the room, which is ridiculously petty)- this doesn't prove his highest possible limit of control; it shows his highest shown instance of controlling people. Even if it was a mere 500,000, that's a considerable amount of people held in thrall effortlessly. Also, Kun picks up the chancellor with one hand and uses him as a damn puppet. Even while maintaining this, he did not fear the present jedi, including the mighty Vodo. This kind of power and control is simply mindblowing, regardless of how much you don't like it. You can rant on and on about green lightning and Revan baking primitives with a wave of his hand, but this kind of power is ridiculous. Kun > revan, and most likely > DN Luke. When push comes to shove, Kun would destroy Luke in saber combat. He trumped over 500 years of duelling experience in a single ten minute period without so much as getting nervous or breaking a sweat. Hell, he hammered right through a staff made stronger than a lightsaber using the small one handed handle of his lightsaber. That kind of physical strength is nuts.

Kun has this.

Kun did that as a Padawan too... The stick isn't all powerful you know, and Vodo isn't the only that used a stick either btw:

And I never ever claimed that DN Luke would beat Kun or that Revan would beat Kun and I am not claiming it now. I am simply saying that perhaps the amulet isn't as powerful as we think, and that the second amulet isn't the same as the first. That is what I am arguing, i'm not even arguing the winner of this fight. I'm just trying to clear up some wrong idea's about Kun his power. Or at least to see if I can.

And Janus, 500.000 people is still a hell of a lot more then we can see and logically guess at. That number is also based on an assumption, and if you look at the picture it doesn't even seem full.