DN Luke vs Exar Kun

Good job dodging the question. Answer it in your next post with a 'yes' or 'no' question, please.

I, unlike you, will answer you question the first time you ask. I have read parts of it. I also have the Essentail Guides, which even if they aren't a higher level of canon then the comics themselves(even though I do not believe they are a lower level) have not been shown to contradict the actual comics in any way. I would sure like to see your source that is official on the NJO and Dark Nest.

I refuse to read either of those piles of festering excrement.

And good job, you read... some of them.

My source for NJO and DN? I'll just use you. Try proving up.

Yes, the book has been owned by one person or another in my family for over 20 years. I have read it twice, actually, but the second time I read it was almost five years ago.

Congratulations, in this instance your incompetence was not as bad as I thought.

And even though I haven't read the book in years, I at least know the backround on the things in the book. Those things you called inconsistentcies really are not inconsistent with the rest of EU as I have shown several post ago. If you would, take the time to read and think about my answers, and then once again you should try to prove that the book is uncanon.

Beside the fact that it does contradict EU (no kaiburr crystal to be found, etc), it contradicts G-Canon (Luke vs. Vader, Luke mysteriously sucking ass at telekinesis).

SotME is not canon. QED.

Where did Obi-wan state that he was unable to do so? And did you ever think about the fact that Obi-wan's spirit was far older and weaker then it was in ESB?

To paraphrase Obi-Wan: If you go to face Vader you will do it alone. I can no longer help you.

By the way, Chronology boy... Splinter of the Mind's Eye takes place before ESB! Nice job not knowing shit about what you're talking about! Hell, the thing was written before ESB came out, too!

SotME is retconned, and not canon. Period. QED.

Why do you always type 'QED' at the end of certain paragraphs?

GFGI

When you prove that the Chronology isn't canon the first time, then you can do so again. It's stated on page 117, lines 3-5 in the NEGtC.

Scroll a few pages up. I'm not going to waste my time getting it myself just to have you in your all-knowing 14 year old wisdom deny it again.

Specifics? I want actual instances of this, not, "bUt lukee use teh forcE!!1"/

I already told you, he's able to use telekinesis to a far greater degree of competence than he shows in ESB.

I already stated that they aren't G-canon, but the next level down, just like the books and comics. And for what must be the tenth time, if the guides don't contradict the comics to begin with, what does it matter if one is higher then the other, the state the same thing.

Except that the chronology cannot create canon. It needs primary source material behind it and it cannot contradict this source material. Ergo, it's barely even C-Canon.

You're just being pathetic. Why don't you try getting some sleep.

Lol! I just showed you to be talking out your ass and this is your response?

Typical.

Still waiting for an actual response.

You got one. Still waiting for some logic, evidence, and reasoning.

Have you read any of what I have said? Just because one small part is wrong, that doesn't mean the entire thing is wrong.

Have you read anything I've posted? I never argued that all of it was wrong, for what must be the dozenth time. The elements that I've mentioned, among others, are though.

You made a horrible assumption.

The guides don't contradict the comics.

Except they frequently do contradict the primary source material. Type some stuff on Kun and I'll point it out.

"Chronolgy is to the C-canon as an encyclopedia is to Julius Caesar's life recorded by peers." - Janus

I'm the one who thinks I can dictate canon? I think you should take a look in the mirror, buddy.

Says the boy who just got made to look like an ass with his bullshit "zOMG, LUCASBOOKS SEAL = G-CANON" nonsense.

How you doing with that Lucasbooks seal on TOTJ, by the way? Still sting, does it?

How does it retcon is? Is having the ability to destroy capital ships with the force weaker then what the Ancient Sith did? If so, how? What exactly makes them weaker?

You need to learn to read. Hyperbolic descriptions of DE Luke and Sidious' power have been retconned by the existence of more powerful beings in TOTJ. Considering Sidious' use of Force Storm is a technique described as an ability derived from the Ancient Sith... he isn't more powerful than them.

So there you go.

I still want you to describe them. Go ahead, do it.

Read up. I already have.

You still have to prove that he did.

Obi-Wan's quote proved that he did. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

So since Obi-Wan is never shown taking a shit in the movies, does that mean he doesn't?

You haven't showed how these descriptions are false. All you have done is said they are flase and then say they are retconned by later sources. That, although it might sound like proof, is not proof. An actual occurence would be proof.

I already told you. Sidious never uses anything that the Ancient Sith haven't invented. He never is shown to have used Sith magic, nor is he shown to invent artifacts as they did. The definitive quotes related to their power overrule the subjective, hyperbolic ones about Sidious'.

And since the Sith Empire being 2000 years old has been retconned, then we now know who he was really talking to, don't we?

No, we don't. We have no ****ing idea who it was and we didn't even know when DE was written.

Ragnos not existing is retconned. And even if not every Sith liked Sidious, is that any different then with Kun? I seem to remember Nadd not esactly liking him.

Apparently you think that the idea of Marka Ragnos has existed since the dawn of Man. *rolls eyes*

Sorry, no. He was invented after DE was written, when TOTJ was written.

And Nadd liked Kun just fine, apparently, until Kun punched his spirit with a Sith amulet and annihilated him.

don't remember that. Can you provide a passage or quote or somethingt? It seemed to me that him being there was what made the amulets act like they did. I think we have a false cause and effect on your part here.

*rolls eyes* I'm glad you have such a great memory of something you've never read.

Check out the narration, it reads to the effect of their amulets beginning to react to each other's presence and triggering a message from the reigning Dark Lord of the Golden Age of the Sith. It brought his spirit forth, he said because of Kun the Sith will never die and crowned him, and he gave them their forehead tattoos.

What would make spirits unable to harm other spirits?

If Ragnos wasn't the top dog of the spirits, then what does Ragnos liking him prove? It's not like there were many other capable Sith for him to pick from.

Occam's razor, assume the negative unless there's proof to the positive.

Ragnos was the strongest Sith that the Ancients had ever produced. That is made quite clear. So Ragnos' opinion is the one that weighs the most when it comes to matters of power. He crowns Kun with his former title.

This just goes to prove that you really don't know jack about Luke at this point. The person I am referring to is Raynar Thul, who drew power from the Killik nests. The Killiks inhabited approximately 375 nest before the end of Dark Nest. Now, it doesn't appear the he drew as much power from each individual as Sidous did, but he did have a far larger base of power to draw from, making him far more powerful then DE Sidous.

No, it only proves that I asked you to provide context.

So, how about you quantify his power rather than spouting off a bunch of hyperbolic bullshit? How powerful are Killiks? Did he draw power from all of them? How much power would this be?

And don't give me bullshit about calories 😉

And just because it is something that Lightsnake said it is wrong?

Most of the time, yeah.

Try and answer this, why would all of the Massassi die if Exar didn't draw power from them?

Because the narration decrees that they sacrificed themselves to power the ritual that would release his spirit. There is no proof that their power went to Exar's spirit.

Oh yes, "who likely has greater saber skills" is a great argument. Here's all the argument I need, Luke pwned Raynar.

Feat wars are a logical fallacy. Pwning Vodo with the ease Kun did is a better feat even by those low standards.

Fishy has already shown that your 1 million Senators argument is crap. Joruus, a weakling next to DN Luke, controlled tens of thousands of people(controlled in the same way that Exar controlled the Supreme Chancellor) for a extended amount of time with ease and was considering controlling them for the entire trip to Coruscant, which according to Thrawn was 5 days away.

Thrawn is declared wrong by the PT, hyperspace is invariably same-day travel.

You and Fishy are proven wrong by Janus' excellent contributions. The Senate building holds a monstrous amount of beings. Kun's feat is in the bag.

And how amazing is it that he pwned an old man with a walking stick.

Nice try degrading Kun's accomplishment. Sorry, fanboy. Vodo would wipe his ass with Luke, too.

Kun didn't personally call all of them to him though.

The point remains: Kun was that big a threat, and all Jedi had to come and stop him. There's never in the history of the galaxy been such a large gathering of Jedi to fight one entity. No similar gathering is known to have existed.

You call that proof? Pathetic. In no way does that prove that it would work again DN Luke.

LOL! Okay. Prove how Luke's going to block something he's never heard of, seen, or even imagined existed.

Unproved. Please try again.

Okay.

Kun curbstomps. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Well, he does have a point on the Senate Chamber not holding a million people. Look at the senate chamber in ROTS. Do you think that could hold even close to a million people?

IKC, I'll get to your post in a few minutes. Don't think I'm ignoring it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Well, he does have a point on the Senate Chamber not holding a million people. Look at the senate chamber in ROTS. Do you think that could hold even close to a million people?

IKC, I'll get to your post in a few minutes. Don't think I'm ignoring it.

The one in ROTS? Possibly not. The one in TOTJ? At least. But even if it doesn't, the point remains that the sheer scale is ridiculously powerful, on top of what he did while doing that.

Originally posted by Wesker
The one in ROTS? Possibly not. The one in TOTJ? At least. But even if it doesn't, the point remains that the sheer scale is ridiculously powerful, on top of what he did while doing that.

How many times do I have to say that Joruus was able to control tens of thousands of people at one time with ease. Joruus isn't even in the same league as Luke or Exar. He's around Yoda's level at best.

So the amount of people in that room, as of yet undetermined, is somehow Kun's abosolute upper limit?

Also, how many jedi masters did Joruus pwn with inpunity while other jedi watched on and could do nothing?

I never said that it is, but neither was the number of people Joruus controlled necessarily his upperlimit.

Exar killed an old man armed with a walking stick. Joruus was planning on attacking Coruscant, which would mean that he would have had to controll all of those people for several days without stopping.

An old man with a walking stick? So I guess Sidious sucks then, because he failed to kill Yoda, an old man with a walking stick. Don't try to undercut Vodo just to make Exar Kun seem "unimpressive".

Good point, and likewise, Sidious was indeed the Strongest Sith of HIS time, thats a reason why Ragnos had no other option but to recognise him, if indeed he did..

As for him being the Greatest, the Sith's main goal was the take over the galaxy, something only Sidious accomplished, therefore he is the "greatest" but definitely no where near the most powerful.

Pfft, an old man with a walking stick? So you're trying to say that 600 years of experience accounts for nothing? Vodo, challenged Kun, knowingly that he was going to be facing a LIGHTSABER, if he thought he couldn't use a wooden stick to defend himself would he use it? No, unless you're trying to say, vodo intended on dying, something that is very unlikely due to the fact, that Kun was the source of the current darkness, and Vodo more than anything wanted to DEFEAT him and end the darkness

Also stop trying to undermine kun's display of power in freezing a senate with atleast quite a few hundred thousand of people, remember that almost every senator would appear as well as many others, due to the fact they were trialing Ulic, the apprentice of Kun, and held the location of Kun's headquarters.

DN Luke pWns

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
DN Luke pWns

I'm sorry, you were saying?

lol, IKC. I said that for the soul purpose to see if you'd whip out those scans again....pretty funny how defensive you are with Kun...

To be honest though (this is my personal opinion) I don't find those blasts that Kun couldn't do by himself anyways (without the amulet) to be THAT amazing. Arguing Kun would win because of ONE thing he can do with help from a piece of jewelry isn't that strong an argument. Now I'm far too tired right now to go into a big 00ber debate, and I have yet to read the DN books anyways, so I couldn't effectively argue at any rate. But my main reason is that Luke just basically never loses anyways, hes Luke. He is "THE HERO" of Star Wars. All feats and all that BS aside, I say that Luke would win, simply because he always wins eventually.

Not an effective argument in terms of feats, but common, you cant say that in a story Luke would lose to Kun. It just wouldn't happen. Ever.

He's not fighting naked, buddy. He can perform that action, it cuts through rock and beast without effort. To argue that Luke would win because he's the hero is ludicrous. We're not writing a story, we're debating a versus match, and in this versus match, Luke gets blown away.

IKC, here's a new idea for you. Prove that Exar would defeat Luke. Actually prove it and don't just say, "but teh amulet!!1"

Here's one for you, Glentract. Prove that Luke would win.

How about you respond to my posts like you said you were doing, Glentract?

Or did I rip you a new one that badly?

Sorry, I've been a little sucked into Sci-fi Friday. I'll finish it in a little while.

Originally posted by IKC
He's not fighting naked, buddy. He can perform that action, it cuts through rock and beast without effort. To argue that Luke would win because he's the hero is ludicrous. We're not writing a story, we're debating a versus match, and in this versus match, Luke gets blown away.

Doubtful. As I said, arguing that "kun pWn3s luke cause he r have teh 00ber sith amulat3!!!11" isn't REALLY that good an argument. If I had read the DN books, I'm sure I could come up with an effective argument against you, I have unfortunately not mostly because I pretty well don't read anything any EU after ROTJ cause its blown way out of proportion.

Never the less, one "feat" of Kuns is allowing you to hold on to this by a thread, thats not a solid win for Kun by any means.

I thought you were against feat wars IKC? Saying that "Kun are pWn J00 with teh 1337 sith b3am5" is a feat. How are we to argue against it? With a feat of Luke's that "stacks up" to firing energy outta your hands? I dunno, you tell me... Feat wars are pointless. But here I go anyways...

As far as I knew Luke has "Emerald Lightning" which he used in the final battle against the Yuuzhan Vong which can instantly kill its victim.

Is that right? I personally don't know. If it is, then well...I'd say Luke's instant kill lightning tops Kuns wall smashing Dragonball Z beams.

Although I could be wrong, you guys tell me...

Doubtful. As I said, arguing that "kun pWn3s luke cause he r have teh 00ber sith amulat3!!!11" isn't REALLY that good an argument. If I had read the DN books, I'm sure I could come up with an effective argument against you, I have unfortunately not mostly because I pretty well don't read anything any EU after ROTJ cause its blown way out of proportion.

You apparently think that's the end-all-be-all of my argument. Read the entire thread next time, that's just the most sure way Kun has to kill Luke.

He could easily tear him apart in a lightsaber duel, or a duel of the Force as well.

Never the less, one "feat" of Kuns is allowing you to hold on to this by a thread, thats not a solid win for Kun by any means.

I thought you were against feat wars IKC? Saying that "Kun are pWn J00 with teh 1337 sith b3am5" is a feat. How are we to argue against it? With a feat of Luke's that "stacks up" to firing energy outta your hands? I dunno, you tell me... Feat wars are pointless. But here I go anyways...

How is an ability a feat, by the way? Boba Fett can fly with his jetpack. Is that a feat? If I bring that up, am I engaging in feat wars?

This is the main thrust: Luke has no edge on Kun in any facet of personal combat. Kun is his superior in every way in that regard.

As far as I knew Luke has "Emerald Lightning" which he used in the final battle against the Yuuzhan Vong which can instantly kill its victim.

Is that right? I personally don't know. If it is, then well...I'd say Luke's instant kill lightning tops Kuns wall smashing Dragonball Z beams.

No, emerald lightning only stuns its victim. Jacen then hacked the Vong up while it was stunned.

How the ****, by the way, would lightning beat those beams? I see them dissipating as Kun's beam comes crashing at Luke. Luke begins wetting his pants a millisecond before he's vaporized.

Because Luke is T3H CH0S3N 1!!! HE MAKES R2-D2 LOOK LIKE SSJ4 GOGETA, WHO T3H CH0S3N 1 COULD ALSO BEAT!!!