Count Dooku and ROTS Sidious vs Mace Windu and ROTS Anakin

Yoda loses to Sidious due to circumstances. Both Mace and Yoda are more powerful than Sidious. Anomaly, your speculation is merely that, and contradictory of Lucas.

Prove that Mace and Yoda are more powerful then Sidious. Yoda and Sidious didn’t really finish their fight, so we don’t really know anything, except Yoda ran away. And although Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel, he is NOT as powerful force wise as Sidious. Sidious is at least equal to Yoda, and Yoda is more powerful then Windu (as Windu admits this himself) If Yoda was more powerful then Windu and Windu was in fact more powerful then Sidious, then Yoda would have raped Sidious regardless of circumstances. This did not happen, at all.

I'll admit, Mace is better then Sidious in saber combat because of Vaapad. And more then likely Yoda is slightly better then Sidious in terms of saber skill. But Yoda and Sidious are at least relatively equal in terms of Force prowess, with maybe Yoda having a slight edge, but not much. Mace is not in that league of force power.

And how am I contradicting Lucas exactly?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Why would he attempt to kill mace when the whole point of everything was to get Anakin was to turn? If he killed Mace with the lightning, then Anakin does not turn. Which was the point.

Kinda defeats the point of the whole sequence had he just up and decided to waste Mace as Anakin walked in the room.

Plus, to say that Mace outright beat Sidious would be to infer that Mace was more powerful then Yoda. Which is not true, Mace admits this himself in Shatterpoint. (and puts Anakin on the same level as Yoda and Kar Vastor I might add)

Just because A beat B, and B beat C, it doesn't guarentee A a victory over C, hence why we have the game "Rock, paper, scissors". Mace beat Sidious, it doesn't mean Mace will automatically beat Yoda. Anakin floored Dooku, and Dooku threw Obi-Wan away like a rag doll. I guess that means Anakin should have demolished Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Prove that Mace and Yoda are more powerful then Sidious. Yoda and Sidious didn’t really finish their fight, so we don’t really know anything, except Yoda ran away. And although Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel, he is NOT as powerful force wise as Sidious. Sidious is at least equal to Yoda, and Yoda is more powerful then Windu (as Windu admits this himself) If Yoda was more powerful then Windu and Windu was in fact more powerful then Sidious, then Yoda would have raped Sidious regardless of circumstances. This did not happen, at all.

I'll admit, Mace is better then Sidious in saber combat because of Vaapad. And more then likely Yoda is slightly better then Sidious in terms of saber skill. But Yoda and Sidious are at least relatively equal in terms of Force prowess, with maybe Yoda having a slight edge, but not much. Mace is not in that league of force power.

And how am I contradicting Lucas exactly?

Who would bother arguing Mace > Sidious in terms of force powers?

Apparently Sorgo and tdtd

Palpatine uses his powers to try and destroy Mace." GL said NOTHING about Palpatine having any "ingenius plan".

But he did, and you didn't catch it.

You think of his powers as the Sith Lightning. I think of his powers as his machiavellian domination of Anakin Skywalker, the shatterpoint against the darkness. Or, in this case, the shatterpoint and the darkness.

"Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber."

Very convenient how he decided to say that Mace deflected his rays right after saying Palpatine tries to destroy him with his powers.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Just because A beat B, and B beat C, it doesn't guarentee A a victory over C, hence why we have the game "Rock, paper, scissors". Mace beat Sidious, it doesn't mean Mace will automatically beat Yoda. Anakin floored Dooku, and Dooku threw Obi-Wan away like a rag doll. I guess that means Anakin should have demolished Obi-Wan.

Well, actually he should have. His arrogance (as is always the case with the Sith) got the better of him. Anakin was better then Obi-wan. Pretty well if you read or see anything (LOE or ROTS, the movie), it always puts Anakin at a higher tier then Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan admits it himself that Anakin has become a "..far greater Jedi then I ever could".

Anakin lost because 1) he's an idiot and 2) he is an arrogant fool, which Obi-Wan took advantage of and pWned him.

Although you are correct. A>B>C arguments are not good. I didn’t really say that anyways.

Very convenient how he decided to say that Mace deflected his rays right after saying Palpatine tries to destroy him with his powers.

He was deflecting his Sith Lightning rays. The powers and "his rays" don't have to be the same entity.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Why would he attempt to kill mace when the whole point of everything was to get Anakin was to turn? If he killed Mace with the lightning, then Anakin does not turn. Which was the point.

Kinda defeats the point of the whole sequence had he just up and decided to waste Mace as Anakin walked in the room.

Plus, to say that Mace outright beat Sidious would be to infer that Mace was more powerful then Yoda. Which is not true, Mace admits this himself in Shatterpoint. (and puts Anakin on the same level as Yoda and Kar Vastor I might add)

Didn't you say in another thread only minutes ago that Lucas' word virtually tramps over any other source? So why would things change now?

No, I don't think so. Thinks aren't going to change in your favor. It says in the Star Wars Databank that Mace and Yoda are on par.

Not to mention, With Sidious and Yoda fighting, Sidious had the high ground for much of the time and Yoda had a bit of a winning edge IMHO.

Mace and Sidious were confined in a small Office on parallel level. And we all saw what happens when a Duelist gets the high ground at the end of the Movie.

Mace defeated Sidious fairly. End of story.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Well, actually he should have. His arrogance (as is always the case with the Sith) got the better of him. Anakin was better then Obi-wan. Pretty well if you read or see anything (LOE or ROTS, the movie), it always puts Anakin at a higher tier then Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan admits it himself that Anakin has become a "..far greater Jedi then I ever could".

Anakin lost because 1) he's an idiot and 2) he is an arrogant fool, which Obi-Wan took advantage of and pWned him.

Although you are correct. A>B>C arguments are not good. I didn’t really say that anyways.

Well, I though you did when you said "Plus, to say that Mace outright beat Sidious would be to infer that Mace was more powerful then Yoda. Which is not true." But you are corrrect in Anakin should have won that fight. I was merely pointing out that there are far too many variables and ambiguities in a fight to say A>B>C.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes, A>B>C arguments are not ALWAYS good, it just so happens in this case that the truth and the A>B>C argument say the same thing. But that doesn’t mean I had intentionally used the A>B>C argument, it just seems like it did since, by fluke, the A>B>C argument happens to be true this time. But it’s not true in all (most) cases.

The A>B>C Bullshit is moot and often shouldn't be used in an Argument.

I can put that theory to shit right now.

Example:

Dooku beat Kenobi. Kenobi Beat Anakin. So Dooku beat Anakin? Nope.

It's that simple. That analogy never could work. Different opponents fight differently with each other. That's the way it is.

Originally posted by Lörd Sorgo
Didn't you say in another thread only minutes ago that Lucas' word virtually tramps over any other source? So why would things change now?

No, I don't think so. Thinks aren't going to change in your favor. It says in the Star Wars Databank that Mace and Yoda are on par.

Not to mention, With Sidious and Yoda fighting, Sidious had the high ground for much of the time and Yoda had a bit of a winning edge IMHO.

Mace and Sidious were confined in a small Office on parallel level. And we all saw what happens when a Duelist gets the high ground at the end of the Movie.

Mace defeated Sidious fairly. End of story.

Mace is EQUAL to Yoda in terms of council whatnot, not force prowess. He is Yoda's equal on the council and in the order, but that does not mean that Yoda and Mace are of equal strength. Especially when Mace himself admits in Shatterpoint that, Yoda, Kar Vastor, and Anakin are more powerful then he is. Although I'd think that he meant Anakin was potentially more powerful then he is, seeing as I doubt highly that Anakin was actually stronger. Never the less, Mace admits that he is not on Yoda’s level in 2 points of Shatterpoint. So you’re wrong.

Originally posted by Lörd Sorgo
The A>B>C Bullshit is moot and often shouldn't be used in an Argument.

I can put that theory to shit right now.

Example:

Dooku beat Kenobi. Kenobi Beat Anakin. So Dooku beat Anakin? Nope.

It's that simple. That analogy never could work. Different opponents fight differently with each other. That's the way it is.

Now your not even reading what I said. I DID NOT USE THAT ARGUMENTATION METHOD.

What I said was, that in this case, the A>B>C argument happens to SAY the same thing as the actual evidence.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Now your not even reading what I said. I DID NOT USE THAT ARGUMENTATION METHOD.

What I said was, that in this case, the A>B>C argument happens to SAY the same thing as the actual evidence.

Now you're assuming I was accusing you.

I was speaking generally of the A>B>C Method. I wasn't speaking to you directly.

You guys were talking about it so I thought I would share my opinion. 😛

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Mace is EQUAL to Yoda in terms of council whatnot, not force prowess. He is Yoda's equal on the council and in the order, but that does not mean that Yoda and Mace are of equal strength. Especially when Mace himself admits in Shatterpoint that, Yoda, Kar Vastor, and Anakin are more powerful then he is. Although I'd think that he meant Anakin was potentially more powerful then he is, seeing as I doubt highly that Anakin was actually stronger. Never the less, Mace admits that he is not on Yoda’s level in 2 points of Shatterpoint. So you’re wrong.

I don't know how canon Shatterpoint is.. I honestly don't but I believe Mace did think Anakin was POTENTIALLY more powerful than him.. AT that point Mace would have pwned him.. And I don't know who kar vastor is.

No, Not really. He isn't a Canon Source.

Lucas contradicts what happened in the movie? Dooku got Kenobi out of the way to isolate Skywalker to try to turn him to the Dark side.

Mace lost to Dooku in a battle when Dooku was a Jedi.

No, Dooku didn't lose any limbs nor did he lose pathetically.

Who was beating Dooku in Obsession? He never fought seriously! He trained Grievous, Mace fought Grievous and then Anakin tweaked and crumbled a wall and Dooku was like "Awesome!"

DATABANK SEZ for Maces profile:

"It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku."

What the . . . ? Who the hell said the Movies were more Canon than Lucas? I didn't even imply that! I merely said there was more to the battle between Dooku and Anakin.

And Mace aslo said Depa Billaba was stronger than he in Shatterpoint was and he was wrong. Mace aint always right. There's no way in hell Anakin, as of Shatterpoint, is stronger than Mace.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
*sigh*

From Lucas on the DVD commentary of ROTS

“...In this particular case the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he’s strong enough to become his apprentice and he doesn’t tell Dooku what he’s up to. Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him, but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice.”

Lucas has said so himself. 1) It was the test to see if Anakin was the better choice for his apprentice. 2) Dooku DOES NOT know what Palpatine is up to, which is - Trying to convert Anakin to the darkside. 3) Anakin proves he is worthy by being Palpatine’s new apprentice because he ends up being stronger then Dooku and killing him.

And unfortunately anything that was ever said in LOE etc. about Dooku not trying/ knowing what Palpatine is up to is nullified by Lucas.

Well this just about settles it.

1. sidious and dooku. if dookus arrogance hadnt caught up with him and hed played it serious fromthe start i think hed probably won. anakin, despite his awesome power is very young, and in comparison inexperienced. i dont think mace could beat sidious in a serious encounter where sidious wants mace dead rather than wants to use him to turn anakin.

2. sidious and dooku. sidious could overpower either mace or anakin with little trouble, and dooku was one of the most powerful masters in the order and could at least equal mace. thats long enough for sidious to take out anakin and then join dooku.

3. dooku and sidious. if the oppertinuty is there sidious seems to favour force powers than saber combat, and hes far ahead of the rest here, he kills either mace or anakin and helps dooku finish whoever is left.