Count Dooku and ROTS Sidious vs Mace Windu and ROTS Anakin

Originally posted by tdtd
I don't know how canon Shatterpoint is.. I honestly don't but I believe Mace did think Anakin was POTENTIALLY more powerful than him.. AT that point Mace would have pwned him.. And I don't know who kar vastor is.

Shatterpoint is as canon as any other EU source. lol. Its a Clone Wars novel, the first of the Clone Wars novels I believe.

Here is the basics of who Kar Vastor is. http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Kar_Vastor

In Shatterpoint Mace admits to himself that Vastor is in the same league of Force power as Yoda and Anakin, which he admits to not being in. He admits twice in the book that he is not as powerful as Yoda (one is more of an example). When he is trying to lift a transport ship type thing (with kids in it) with the force from falling over a cliff. He says that Yoda would simply lift the ship and put it somewhere safe "while uttering one of his maxims". Mace then admits that he is not capable of doing this and must find another way to save the children in the ship. Later on in a log of his he admits that Vastor is as powerful as Yoda and Young Anakin Skywalker, and admits that he is not this strong.

Mace is NOT the force equal of Yoda, maybe he is in saber skill (as Yoda himself has said that Mace is the most dangerous saberist in the order because of Vaapad) but in force prowess, Mace isn’t in the same league as Yoda.

My point here is that Mace could not (did not) overpower Sidious in the arrest scene AFTER the saber duel as Sidious is at least equal to Yoda, and Yoda is more powerful then Windu (as Windu admits this himself). If Yoda was more powerful then Windu and Windu was in fact more powerful then Sidious, then Yoda would have raped Sidious regardless of circumstances. But Windu is NOT more powerful then Sidious because then he would have to be more powerful then Yoda, which he is not.

Now I know that this is a kind of A>B>C argument, but when used in the context of Force power, unlike saber duels, A>B>C arguments work. Yoda is simply more powerful then Mace. And since Sidious is Yoda's equal in force powers, there is no way that Mace could have actually beaten Sidious in a force struggle (like the lightning part) had Sidious wanted to kill him. Saying otherwise doesn’t make sense. Because to do so would be to say that Mace is more powerful then Yoda, which Mace admits himself that he is not.

However, Mace DID beat Palpatine fair and square in the saber duel, there is no arguing that. He just could not have overpowered Sidious in a force fight had Sidious intended to outright kill him.

But if it were to come to a force fight, how powerful one is with the force is not the only factor. How well you defend against them and how well you resist them are probably more important, and Mace is shown through the movies to be great at doing so. I mean he was able to block Sidious' lightning with his saber when he was basically right next to him, and to my knowledge has never come across sith lightning. He was also able to redirect it and was thus able to cause Sidious' fd up face.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Mace is EQUAL to Yoda in terms of council whatnot, not force prowess. He is Yoda's equal on the council and in the order, but that does not mean that Yoda and Mace are of equal strength. Especially when Mace himself admits in Shatterpoint that, Yoda, Kar Vastor, and Anakin are more powerful then he is. Although I'd think that he meant Anakin was potentially more powerful then he is, seeing as I doubt highly that Anakin was actually stronger. Never the less, Mace admits that he is not on Yoda’s level in 2 points of Shatterpoint. So you’re wrong.

So what Mace said means it's 100% true now?

That's funny. We've seen it in the SWU several times of Characters being deceitful and lying. You think just because Mace said Yoda is stronger than him that it automatically becomes true? Hell, If that was true, the Exile can kill Revan and Vader is able to kill Sidious.

Sorry, but that doesn't hold much water with me.

And Mace aslo said Depa Billaba was stronger than he in Shatterpoint was and he was wrong. Mace aint always right. There's no way in hell Anakin, as of Shatterpoint, is stronger than Mace. [/B]

Why not? He killed Mace, didn't he?

Mace was. Mace made the ground under Grievous explode. Then Dooku left his castle and told the Magnaguards with him to "Find Asajj and Grievous but leave the Jedi to me." then Mace ran over and attacked him. Dooku said something like "You won't kill me. Blah, blah, blah." Then he realised he wasn't gonna win and two Magnaguards grabed Mace. And Mace said something like "You think these droids are gonna stop me?" and Dooku said "No, but they will hold you back for long enough for me to escape." and he ran away, just as he ran away from Yoda not once, but twice.

Dooku was in a hurry. Not to mention, he didn't want to risk everything for a fight. There was more important things than fighting Mace.

For example: Sidious tried to get away from Yoda at the beginning of their fight.

After the fight, who ended up running? Yoda or Sidious? That's what I thought.

So, what you mentioned about Shatterpoint proves nothing.

At least Yoda managed to stop Sidious from getting away. Mace Failed.

And guess what? Luke lost to Vader in ESB but by NJO he could kill him by snapping his fingers.

Vader was not going all out during that fight. He didn't want to kill or hurt his son. He proved this by chucking Sidious into a Shaft.

Just because that happened with Luke and Vader doesn't mean it will happen with Dooku and Mace.

So, Dooku bested Mace before but he can't do it again? I don't think so.

BTW: Nick Gillard isn't a source of Canon.

For the last time who the hell is Vastor? And if he's as powerful as Yoda(which I highly doubt) what happened to him? Windu is simply a better swordsman than Palpatine. Nobody is denying that Palpatine would own Windu in the force but Palpatine was screwed when his lightning was thrown back at him. THEN AND ONLY THEN did he start playing the victim.

I don't see why it's so hard to understand. Anomaly has provided direct quotes from Lucas himself and really you cannot contradrict that.

Do you know that Dooku was going all out on Anakin? Sidious promised that if Anakin had somehow fluked Dooku, he'd be promised amnesty. Do you think that he'd need to go all out?

Dooku > Anakin

Mace > Sidious

Then it's a matter of Mace vs Dooku, which would be a tough-ass fight.

Originally posted by Arker
Do you know that Dooku was going all out on Anakin? Sidious promised that if Anakin had somehow fluked Dooku, he'd be promised amnesty. Do you think that he'd need to go all out?

Dooku > Anakin

Mace > Sidious

Then it's a matter of Mace vs Dooku, which would be a tough-ass fight.

Where does it say Dooku was going full out on Anakin? Why was Dooku trying to make Anakin use the Dark side?

Anakin makes a piss-poor Jedi.

Hasn't anyone noticed that the only way he killed Dooku, defeated Asajj and chopped off Maces hand was by giving into the Dark side?

I guess he was meant to be a whiney ass Sith after all.

Piss-poor Jedi...in comparison to all of his peers, which just happen to be the Order's greatest at the time. 😛

Compared to a lesser Knight, Anakin probably looks like teh ub3r Frc3 G0tt!

Anakin just is a horrid Jedi. He made a better Sith. Anytime he defeated an opponent, he used Anger. Unless it was something like some small time droids or shit.

...

Yup. 😄

Alot of Jedi used anger at the beginning of their career: Obi-Wan, Luke, Anakin...

Originally posted by Gamblor
Alot of Jedi used anger at the beginning of their career: Obi-Wan, Luke, Anakin...

Wow . . . You don't get it.

Who turned into a Sith Lord? Obi Wan? Luke?

Didn't think so.

Anakin was always the angry, whiney little bastard.

The only reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was because he felt his wife was threatened and Palpy was working at him for 13 years. It wasn't because he was anymore "whiney" (I don't ever remember him whining during the third film) than anyone else.

Originally posted by Gamblor
The only reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was because he felt his wife was threatened and Palpy was working at him for 13 years. It wasn't because he was anymore "whiney" (I don't ever remember him whining during the third film) than anyone else.

You don't remember Anakin whining?

What? How can you do this? This is outrageous, it's unfair. I'm more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the council and not be a master?

So anyways, either way Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side. He had to use anger to defeat Asajj, Kill Dooku, cut Mace's hand off, try to defeat Kenobi . . .

Not to mention he slaughtered a camp of Tusken Raiders. He was a wild and sporadic person and would have been flipped to the Dark side more than one way if his Wife wasn't an option.

What? How can you do this? This is outrageous, it's unfair. How can you be on the council and not be a master?

Forgot that part... yeah that is pretty damn whiny, but more impulsive than anything.

So anyways, either way Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side. He had to use anger to defeat Asajj, Kill Dooku, cut Mace's hand off, try to defeat Kenobi . . .

He was influenced by Palpatine for Dooku, he cut off Mace's hand for Padme, and was already a Sith Lord when fighting Kenobi. Haven't read or seen any of the Asajj fights.
He's easily manipulated, so he might have anyways.

Wow, we have a Palpatine/Anakin fanboy here.. You should consult lightsnake who slit his throat months ago because nobody agreed with his fanboy views.

If you don't have anything good to say, simply don't say anything at all. Unless of course calling other people "fanboys" makes you feel all warm inside.

Sorry if reality offends you.

It's not offending me. I'm not the one who lowered himself to namecalling here 😉